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S3 Virge DX and GX memory

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First post, by bytesaber

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Is there such a card that was built with GX (Not GX2), and used more than 2MB of SGRAM memory?

Why? Some DOS games that support only S3D, lean towards only supporting the Virge 325. A low frame rate chip. I've read that S3DTool is a utility that can patch some of those games to support DX/GX/VX.
http://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/S3

But maybe not GX2 or MX.
S3 VIRGE Terminal velocity in dos.

This "could" give S3D only games, that also do not support non 325 chips, a faster chip to work with. So if that's the case, I want to know which is better. DX or GX? The only advantage I can find between DX and GX, is that GX supports SGRAM memory over EDO. I am also assuming SGRAM is better than EDO.

So if what I stated above is legit... Then would this cause a desire to find a GX card that has more than 2MB of SGRAM memory built on?

During such an ebay and google search, this is what I have found and it appears to be conflicting.

There is conflicting information about the memory types used with DX and GX chips. Wiki tells us that the DX is an upgrade to the original Virge 325. And the GX is also the same upgrade, but supports the newer SGRAM instead of just the EDO that DX supports. If that is true, I would conclude that:
- Cards using Virge DX can only use EDO memory.
- Cards using Virge GX can use EDO or SGRAM memory.

Here are some images I keep running into that conflict my perhaps very poor conclusions.

Here is a Compaq card with a GX using SGRAM. It's the only one I can find, but unfortunately is only has 2MB on board. Likely the reasoning of this being some kind of "office" computer card. But the theory holds up. It's a GX with only SGRAM.

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Compag video card using a Virge GX and SGRAM memory
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Fair use/fair dealing exception

Next, is another card that uses a GX chip, and has more than 2MB of memory. But it only is utilizing older EDO memory. So the hunt is still on, but at least the facts (if I'm correct) still line up.

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STB card using a Virge GX and EDO memory
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Here we have a Diamond Stealth 2000 using a DX chip and EDO memory. I don't want a DX nor EDO memory, but at least the theory still holds.

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Diamond card using DX and EDO memory
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And then my theory went out the window. What is this?? 😕 It's a DX using SGRAM. Is it not?

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Card with a DX and SGRAM memory
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Does this mean DX actually can support SGRAM memory? Does that then mean the GX and the DX have no difference?

I'm failing to find the existence of a GX card that utilized more than 2MB of SGRAM memory. I am also failing to find the difference between DX and GX.

Can anyone help me understand better or care to speculate?

Thank you

Reply 2 of 47, by Forevermore

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I'm not entirely sure if the use of either memory type would make much difference in S3D mode. I assume the bottleneck being the 375 chip itself.

So many combinations to make, so few cases to put them in.

Reply 3 of 47, by bytesaber

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I would suspect the same. I don't see there being a real difference. However it is still a curiosity to me when I find images of DX cards using what appears to be SGRAM. This is more of a search for knowledge than trying to find a card.

Reply 4 of 47, by vetz

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The GX2 supports almost all the S3D games (Terminal Velocity (glitches) and Battle Race (not detected) does not work properly even with S3Dtool). You should be reading up on newer threads than those from 2011 as there are much more info on S3 Virge and S3D since then. Don't bother with S3D unless you have a GX2. The framerates on a 325/GX/DX is terrible.

Direct3D performance comparisons between the different Virge models can be found on http://www.vintage3d.org.

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Reply 5 of 47, by elianda

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Here is the photo of my S3 Virge/GX with 4 MB SGRAM from my gallery:
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/pics/graphi … ge_gx_front.jpg

You should not be so determined on 3D speed when comparing the memory types, especially if 3D speed is limited by the graphics chip itself.
SGRAM may allow higher resolution modes and higher refresh rates combined with a faster DAC.
So a DX has typically a 170 MHz DAC, whereas a GX has a 200 MHz DAC.

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Reply 6 of 47, by idspispopd

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Regarding VX: IIRC these should be supported without S3DTool. 325 and VX were released at the same time, DX and GX came later. (Of course a VX is not better for 3D than a 325.)

DX = EDO and GX = EDO or SGRAM (or SDRAM? GX2 is SGRAM) is quite well known, I don't see conflicting information here.

The STB card on your photo should be a Nitro3D which in my experience is probably the most common ViRGE GX card. At least those usually use reasonable fast RAM, the one on the photo seems to have 35ns EDO RAM (like my own) so it is not a bad choice.

The Diamond card on your photo seems to have 30ns EDO RAM, even better.

Regarding the PowerColor card: According to http://www.datasheetarchive.com/shortform-dat … 53C832HQ35.html the chips are indeed 35ns EDO RAM. Unusual package but maybe these are more modern?

I don't know how much of a difference the memory really makes. I have even read a statement that (at least for ViRGE cards) EDO RAM at the same clock frequency is faster than SDRAM. I won't bet on this without somebody overclocking, benchmarking and comparing the cards. (Putas, elianda?)

Reply 7 of 47, by elianda

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I could offer to put a card in a suitable system and make the whole thing remotely available, so you could run benches / change drivers etc. yourself.

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Reply 8 of 47, by Putas

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Compaq used custom memory expansion module across more products, I got mine for the same GX from their Mystique. For serious s3d gaming I would recommend madly overclocked DX. That sgram-like card is asking for it, assuming it runs at casual DX slow memory clocks.

Reply 9 of 47, by vetz

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Putas wrote:

For serious s3d gaming I would recommend madly overclocked DX.

Can you elaborate on why this and not a GX2? Have you done any comparisons on overclocked DX cards vs GX2 btw?

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Reply 10 of 47, by senrew

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vetz wrote:
Putas wrote:

For serious s3d gaming I would recommend madly overclocked DX.

Can you elaborate on why this and not a GX2? Have you done any comparisons on overclocked DX cards vs GX2 btw?

heh, Vetz has a new project 😀

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Reply 11 of 47, by bytesaber

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vetz wrote:

You should be reading up on newer threads than those from 2011 as there are much more info on S3 Virge and S3D since then.

Never thought to consider that something as old as S3D would have outdated info from 2011! 🤣 Good advise. I'll read up on what I can find that is more current.

vetz wrote:

Don't bother with S3D unless you have a GX2. The framerates on a 325/GX/DX is terrible.

Agreed for 325. I have one and it is really slow. I have had DX's and GX's in the past, but I never tried to do anything with them in 3D. I'll see if I can find a GX2. Finding one on PCI would be nice, and let me fit it with a Voodoo1 or Voodoo2.

elianda wrote:

Here is the photo of my S3 Virge/GX with 4 MB SGRAM from my gallery:
http://mail.lipsia.de/~enigma/neu/pics/graphi … ge_gx_front.jpg

Nice! Any idea what brand that is?

elianda wrote:

You should not be so determined on 3D speed when comparing the memory types

Roger that.

elianda wrote:

I could offer to put a card in a suitable system and make the whole thing remotely available, so you could run benches / change drivers etc. yourself.

Nah, but thank you. A very cool offer. Just more curious in picking your knowledge.

Putas wrote:

Compaq used custom memory expansion module across more products, I got mine for the same GX from their Mystique. For serious s3d gaming I would recommend madly overclocked DX. That sgram-like card is asking for it, assuming it runs at casual DX slow memory clocks.

Can you tell us more about this? Senrew, do you know about this too?

Reply 12 of 47, by bytesaber

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idspispopd wrote:

Regarding the PowerColor card: According to http://www.datasheetarchive.com/shortform-dat … 53C832HQ35.html the chips are indeed 35ns EDO RAM. Unusual package but maybe these are more modern?

I actually wondered the same. Nice find! That makes alot of sense now. Especially as I have also found a picture of a DX using a mix of both "package" types. A very confusing glance until you explained this. Thanks! I'd say this is the answer to this thread.

Reply 13 of 47, by Putas

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vetz wrote:
Putas wrote:

For serious s3d gaming I would recommend madly overclocked DX.

Can you elaborate on why this and not a GX2? Have you done any comparisons on overclocked DX cards vs GX2 btw?

You can get higher chip clock that way, GX(2) will reach the roof sooner. And GX2 is somewhat less compatible.

Reply 14 of 47, by idspispopd

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Putas wrote:

For serious s3d gaming I would recommend madly overclocked DX. That sgram-like card is asking for it, assuming it runs at casual DX slow memory clocks.

That's actually what I'm eventually planning to do with this card. That is if the RAM chips are really 25ns - I have never seen faster EDO chips on a ViRGE card.

Putas wrote:

You can get higher chip clock that way, GX(2) will reach the roof sooner. And GX2 is somewhat less compatible.

So you are saying a DX can be clocked higher than a GX even with EDO RAM? Experience or is there a reason why this should be?

I suspect that a GX2 might not necessarily be faster than a GX at the same clock speeds. This is hard to see in your benchmark results, though.

Reply 15 of 47, by vlask

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bytesaber wrote:

Is there such a card that was built with GX (Not GX2), and used more than 2MB of SGRAM memory?

Think i have one, but not sure about packaging. They looks like SGRAM, but i have to check type at home. Not viewable on photos...

385f.jpg

Not only mine graphics cards collection at http://www.vgamuseum.info

Reply 16 of 47, by idspispopd

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vlask wrote:
bytesaber wrote:

Is there such a card that was built with GX (Not GX2), and used more than 2MB of SGRAM memory?

Think i have one, but not sure about packaging. They looks like SGRAM, but i have to check type at home. Not viewable on photos...

Well, it does say "SYNC. MEMORY" on the card and on the memory module.

Reply 17 of 47, by Putas

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idspispopd wrote:

So you are saying a DX can be clocked higher than a GX even with EDO RAM? Experience or is there a reason why this should be?

I suspect that a GX2 might not necessarily be faster than a GX at the same clock speeds. This is hard to see in your benchmark results, though.

By my experience the memory used in GX(2) does not have such reserves as some DX cards. Well in case of GX2 you can hit other limits, but still related to the high speed memory interface. DX with it's usual relaxed memory clock is often free to max the core clock. I got 70 stable with good unmodded DX cards. So with voltmods and heatsink, 35ns EDO or better, who knows, maybe double of default is possible.
There does not seem to be any difference in 3d engines of DX/GX and GX2, so yeah, same 3d performance per clock.

Reply 19 of 47, by Caluser2000

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Don't know if it's much help. I have this EAGLES S3Virge/DX based video card from 1997/98 with 8megs of MS416250-25J.

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