VOGONS


A tale of two PSUs

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Reply 260 of 472, by PcBytes

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TELVM wrote:

Oh Deer! Unless there are PI coils on the secondary (can't see them in the pic) don't even think on wasting effort on it. Efficiency is atrocious (70% or less), I wouldn't trust it above ~250W tops, and I wouldn't power anything '+12V heavy' (P4 or later) with it.

That said, with PI coils and decent caps voltage regulation and ripple would be acceptable for powering a PIII or earlier.

It has PI coils. In fact,any PSU I've had on this platform (X-B2002) had PI coils. And the cap placements on the secondary are pretty good.

TELVM wrote:

Only the PI coils on the secondary absolve it from a total Gutless Wonder award. Almost no input filtering, the infamous four diode treatment (with the diodes lying flat, not raised like in the Deer, which worsens cooling), roasted PCB, etc. Scrounge it for parts then junk it.

Actually,that Delux will be my main subject for modding. I gotta find some heatsinks though,as they did a very weird placing. The primary heatsink might be easy but the second heatsink has the grounding pins on the other side unlike the primary heatsinks. Once I take care of that and I make myself sure it will work and won't go bang,then I will recap it with good caps (I only have AsiaX,Sanyo,Panasonics and a few genuine Rubycon ZL caps)

TELVM wrote:

Have you noticed those two discrete diodes on a bracket (epic ghettoness) for +12V rectification? 😵

I'm looking for a rectifier for that one,but it's going to be pretty hard as my last 20A 60V rectifier is now inside my main PC's PSU (Pentium E2160,the PSU is a recapped Deer with good heatsinks and PFC).

"Enter at your own peril, past the bolted door..."
Main PC: i5 3470, GB B75M-D3H, 16GB RAM, 2x1TB
98SE : P3 650, Soyo SY-6BA+IV, 384MB RAM, 80GB

Reply 262 of 472, by TELVM

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PCBONEZ wrote:

... Step 1 in any kind of recap job is to make a Cap-Map. - NEVER EVER SKIP THE CAP-MAP! - Sh*t Happens! ...

To illustrate the point here's a fine example of CAD-designed, laser-printed cap-map courtesy of NASA-JPL 🤣 :

GQvfk3Ah.png

PcBytes wrote:

... I only have AsiaX,Sanyo,Panasonics and a few genuine Rubycon ZL caps ...

Beware 'AsiaX' is the alias under which the dreaded Fuhjyyus try to disguise today, better kill them with fire before they lay eggs. flamethrower-2.gif

Last edited by TELVM on 2015-11-21, 11:24. Edited 1 time in total.

Let the air flow!

Reply 263 of 472, by PcBytes

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wave wrote:

This would be a great learning project. What IC is used on the Deer psu? 2005 chip of the year?

Yes,it's the 2005 chip. I also have one with the 2003 chip.

"Enter at your own peril, past the bolted door..."
Main PC: i5 3470, GB B75M-D3H, 16GB RAM, 2x1TB
98SE : P3 650, Soyo SY-6BA+IV, 384MB RAM, 80GB

Reply 264 of 472, by wave

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Depending on the parts used that platform could do up to 400W. Take a look at this: http://www.hardwareinsights.com/wp/the-2012-e … -TM-420-PSAR-I3

Reply 265 of 472, by PcBytes

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Mine won't. EI-33 transformer.

TELVM - better AsiaX than the crappy GL caps the Sun Pro has.

"Enter at your own peril, past the bolted door..."
Main PC: i5 3470, GB B75M-D3H, 16GB RAM, 2x1TB
98SE : P3 650, Soyo SY-6BA+IV, 384MB RAM, 80GB

Reply 267 of 472, by PcBytes

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13007 transistors and 470uF Yang Chun primaries.

"Enter at your own peril, past the bolted door..."
Main PC: i5 3470, GB B75M-D3H, 16GB RAM, 2x1TB
98SE : P3 650, Soyo SY-6BA+IV, 384MB RAM, 80GB

Reply 268 of 472, by wave

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13007 usually blow at 250W.

470uF Yang Chun

What is their real capacity? My experience with those Deer/L&C/Premier/Allied/Force psus is that the primary caps usually are fake. The pattern is like this:

470uF --> real capacity: 330uF

560uF--> real c: 470uF

680uF--> 560uF

330uF--> 220uF

Reply 269 of 472, by PcBytes

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I don't know their real capacity because I don't have a ESR meter.

However,I'd expect that Deer to even blow at 200W.

"Enter at your own peril, past the bolted door..."
Main PC: i5 3470, GB B75M-D3H, 16GB RAM, 2x1TB
98SE : P3 650, Soyo SY-6BA+IV, 384MB RAM, 80GB

Reply 270 of 472, by PCBONEZ

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TELVM wrote:
To illustrate the point here's a fine example of CAD-designed, laser-printed cap-map courtesy of NASA-JPL :lol: : […]
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PCBONEZ wrote:

... Step 1 in any kind of recap job is to make a Cap-Map. - NEVER EVER SKIP THE CAP-MAP! - Sh*t Happens! ...

To illustrate the point here's a fine example of CAD-designed, laser-printed cap-map courtesy of NASA-JPL 🤣 :

GQvfk3Ah.png

PcBytes wrote:

... I only have AsiaX,Sanyo,Panasonics and a few genuine Rubycon ZL caps ...

Beware 'AsiaX' is the alias under which the dreaded Fuhjyyus try to disguise today, better kill them with fire before they lay eggs. flamethrower-2.gif

That's pretty good but I always mark the polarity on the Cap-Map as well.
Keeps you out of trouble if the markings on the board are wrong - and sometimes they are.
.
Thanks for showing an example. I couldn't find one I saved to the PC and I didn't feel like messing with the scanner.
.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 271 of 472, by Nvm1

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PCBONEZ wrote:
The first thing you must learn is that the caps needed are not general purpose caps. They need low ESR caps and there are 'grade […]
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Nvm1 wrote:
It's kind of a first attempt to salvage this psu to be used as my test psu. I never recapped a motherboard of psu so this should […]
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wave wrote:

Definitely worth recapping. It won't be easy though.

It's kind of a first attempt to salvage this psu to be used as my test psu. I never recapped a motherboard of psu so this should give me a good first go. 😈
I will take better pictures as soon as I have it dismantled further. The only real challange seems to be that the whole where all the cable go through is so tight that I can't get the plastic ring loose that keeps everything in place.

Any input regarding what caps to use/order will be welcome when it's so far. And input to explain to me why it is bad or good at points are welcome. I Always found this topic very interesting and aside from it being a dual rail design I like to learn what to look out for and how it can/could have been better.

The first thing you must learn is that the caps needed are not general purpose caps.
They need low ESR caps and there are 'grades' of low ESR. (Grades is my own word. Not some Official Standard.)
- The reason I brought that up is that sourcing the correct kind of caps in the correct grade is not always easy and may take you a while.
- That means this PSU may be out of service quite a while waiting on parts deliveries.
That is part of why I suggested replacing it. - To get the system back on-line sooner.

~ Will note here because it always comes up eventually~
Terms like: "Ultra Low ESR", "Very Low ESR", "Super Low ESR", "Extra Low ESR" - mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
There is no Industry Standard or convention that defines these terms so they can mean whatever the manufacturer wants them to mean.
As a result company A's "Ultra Low ESR" may be exactly equivalent to company B's "Very Low ESR".
~

So you are going to try this:

Step 1 in any kind of recap job is to make a Cap-Map. - NEVER EVER SKIP THE CAP-MAP! - Sh*t Happens!
If there is an interruption part way through the job such that you have to come back to it later you won't remember which cap goes were. (Trust me on this.)
The Cap-Map is just a drawing of the board that shows:
- Where the caps go.
- WHICH WAY they go (The polarity.)
(The polarity marks on PCBs are not always correct. Look which way the cap is installed before you remove it and mark it on your map.)
- The original cap's uF, Volts, Manufacturer, Series, diameter, length. (I only include length if too long would be a problem.)
If any have a weird lead spacing you might want to note that too. This is pretty rare though.
That PSU appears to have daughter boards. You should do a map for each board you will work on.
Doesn't work with PSUs but with motherboards you can usually find a photo or drawing online to make the map. (Print and draw right on it.)

Step 2 is to make your ordering worksheet. This is simply a list of all the caps you need to replace followed by possible replacements.
- The following is of course just one way of doing this.
From your Cap-Map info list the original cap's. Include uF, Volts, Manufacturer, Series, diameter, (length), how many you need.
Then add the original cap's ESR and Ripple - You will need to look ESR/Ripple up in the original cap's datasheet.
(Not all cap datasheets are published and not all actually produced caps are found in the datasheets that are published. There are work-a rounds if you run into that.)
- Doesn't hurt to have other columns for where you are buying (the dealer/seller) and the price.
(On the paper) Each cap you need to replace should have several blank lines under it to enter possible replacements you come across while you're shopping.
I use a pencil for that part 'cause it gets changed often as I come across better replacements or better deals.
[ I've attached a screen-shot of one I cleaned up and saved for future reference. The worksheets aren't this 'pretty' while I'm using them. Normally there are several possible replacements listed under each original cap but before I archived this I removed all the ones I decided against and only left the final choice. I also don't usually include serial numbers but I had 6 of these to recap and their cap situations were all different. ]

BOM_Example.jpg

Do you know how to solder?
This is a little different than general electronics work as the boards are extra thick. You really need a 50-60 or even 70 watt iron. (Especially for motherboard work.)
If you're experienced you can 'make it work' with a 40 watt but it's still easier with an iron that has more 'grunt'.
The thicker boards suck the heat out of the iron quickly. If the iron doesn't have enough grunt to keep things hot enough to flow the solder completely you'll have a mess.
.

Thanks for the info on making the map, defenitly something I will make including directions, polarity and Original specs. Since the board is cramped by the looks of it I will make it on A3 to be sure everything get's fitted on it. And since it's my learning project I will take a crapload of pictures. 🤣

The "shopping/replacement list" will be some work by the looks of it. I will follow your tips while making it.

I do know how to solder, but I have never desoldered from a pcb. My soldering Iron is a Weller 80w 450 degree Celsius max. Gonna look up some toturials on how to desolder the caps. Atleast I know that when resoldering the items on it should usually start on max settings. Biggest issue I had sofar with soldering is that sometimes other items on the board can be so close that you have to keep them cool. 😲

When I have the board fully disassembled and the layout complete I will come back to this thread to make a follow up post!

Reply 272 of 472, by PCBONEZ

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Nvm1 wrote:

Thanks for the info on making the map, defenitly something I will make including directions, polarity and Original specs. Since the board is cramped by the looks of it I will make it on A3 to be sure everything get's fitted on it. And since it's my learning project I will take a crapload of pictures. 🤣

The "shopping/replacement list" will be some work by the looks of it. I will follow your tips while making it.

When you have a list of the original caps post it.
I have 100s of cap datasheets on file so I can help spec proper replacements.
Also if you run into one of those buggers that is near impossible to find replacements for I may know a source or two.
Remember that the ESR and Ripple ratings are a big fat hairy deal for most of these caps and those numbers are not printed on the side.
You have to use datasheets or know how to cross-reference equivalents.
- Or be such an old hand at it that you have a feel for what should be there.

Nvm1 wrote:

I do know how to solder, but I have never desoldered from a pcb. My soldering Iron is a Weller 80w 450 degree Celsius max. Gonna look up some toturials on how to desolder the caps.

Sounds like a good iron.
Tutorials are a good idea.
Make sure to see some that go over using solder braid. (AKA: solder wick.) That stuff makes the desoldering work much easier.
Probably a good idea to have at least two different widths of braid on-hand.
Too big of width on a small joint or the reverse situation can make things a little harder to do.
If the wick acts like it doesn't want to get wet with solder then put a tiny amount of flux in the wick. Seems to help.
.

Last edited by PCBONEZ on 2015-11-22, 23:39. Edited 1 time in total.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 273 of 472, by PCBONEZ

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wave wrote:
13007 usually blow at 250W. […]
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13007 usually blow at 250W.

470uF Yang Chun

What is their real capacity? My experience with those Deer/L&C/Premier/Allied/Force psus is that the primary caps usually are fake. The pattern is like this:

470uF --> real capacity: 330uF

560uF--> real c: 470uF

680uF--> 560uF

330uF--> 220uF

There's a couple things going on here.
First 'as-new' most caps of this type have a uF tolerance of +/-20% [ It's not 470uF, it's 470 +/- 20% uF.]
And as caps age the uF tends to go down.
And yes, crap brands drift out of tolerance much faster than good brands.
.
Now, putting 2 and 2 together.
2#1: The standard sizes of caps are pretty close to 20% apart.
2#2: A cap's uF goes down with age.
2+2= If you can't find a cap with "X"uF then it's generally okay to go up one uF size because it's close enough to the +/-20% - and as the cap ages it will get closer to the original uF value anyway.
I personally would only do this if I can't find the correct value ANYWHERE. That's pretty rare.
.

Last edited by PCBONEZ on 2015-11-23, 01:24. Edited 2 times in total.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 274 of 472, by PCBONEZ

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TELVM wrote:
Beware 'AsiaX' is the alias under which the dreaded Fuhjyyus try to disguise today, better kill them with fire before they lay e […]
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Beware 'AsiaX' is the alias under which the dreaded Fuhjyyus try to disguise today, better kill them with fire before they lay eggs. flamethrower-2.gif

Nope. Fuhjyyu isn't hiding anything. http://www.fuhjyyu.com.tw/
AsiaX is just yet another crap brand that is as bad as Fuhjyyu. There are dozens of small cap manufacturers like that.
AsiaX doesn't even have a website as far as I know.
I agree with killing them before they lay eggs!
.
Something to know about Fuhjyyu series names.
(An example) Caps marked TN and TNR are the same series.
The added "R" has something to do with how they are sold (big contact or whatever) and is not a different series.
So, if you run across a Fuhjyyu cap marked TNR the the correct datasheet is the TN datasheet.

Another commonly seen one is TM vs TMR - same deal.
.
TM and TN are pretty common in older PSUs.
The thing is were TM is a low ESR cap, the TN is a general purpose cap.
The TN should not be used in OP filters and that's where they are often found.
Is another case where corporate/company bean counters go one step too far in cheaping down the product.
.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 276 of 472, by PCBONEZ

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TELVM wrote:

Not to argue on scatology but I've heard that AsiaX = Fuhjyyu.

You heard wrong then.
.
Bear in mind that I was a senior member of badcaps.net before c_hegge even joined. http://www.badcaps.net/forum/member.php?u=511
Further, while I didn't work on PCs specifically until the late 90's, I've been an Electronics Tech since 1981.
A lot of what c_hegge knows about caps and ESR he knows because I and other senior BCN members taught him. (He DOES know a lot now.)
The other forum he moderates (Hardware Insights) exists because *I* suggested shovenose (another BCN member) go start his own forum site.
Shovenose was the creator and original owner of Hardware Insights and he's long time buddies with c_hegge.
.
C_hegge also says Jun Fu are Fuhjyyu because some datasheets look similar. That isn't true either. JunFu and Fuhjyyu use different vents.
And he also said he got all this from 'someone' at johnnyGuru. IOW he was repeating misinformation from who knows who.
.
AsiaX were (are?) manufactured by Tomiyuki Kei Electronics in Shenzhen China. No website and no datasheets are available.
Fuhjyyu is in Taiwan.
.
Different brands using similar style datasheets is not the least bit unusual.
Two different brands of caps having series with the same specs is not all that unusual either.
Just compare Panasonic FC to Nichicon PW or Nichicon HD to Chemicon KZE.
.
.
And FYI: The new owner of Hardware Insights (Handle = Behemot, both there and at BCN) custom orders certain hard to find sizes of caps from the factory.
IOW: Behemot is one of the sources I mentioned for impossible to find sizes. Only down side is he's in the Czech Republic so ordering/shipping can be a problem.
.

Last edited by PCBONEZ on 2015-11-24, 00:36. Edited 6 times in total.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 278 of 472, by PCBONEZ

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wave wrote:

Why you left badcaps?

Oh, there are 6 or 8 reasons in a chain of events, some on the site and some in personal life.
Long story. To explain it fully would muddy this thread too much so I won't go there.
.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 279 of 472, by keropi

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totally unrelated to PSUs but I am in the process of recapping an arcade monitor (well... it does have an onboard PSU 🤣 )

Adryq5r.jpg

2wIgruC.jpg

pi0aeQj.png

It uses a mix of Daewoo RSS/RS , Chemicon SMG/SME and Samsung GL/GH capacitors. So I searched for the capacitor datasheets that I could find (chemicon SME / SMG and Daewoo RSS series) and it seems that all are general purpose 2000hrs/85degrees ones.
I can order Nichicon PX, CS and VZ (for the smaller uf ones) caps, do you think they will be a good replacement for the original general purpose ones?

Last edited by keropi on 2016-01-17, 22:11. Edited 2 times in total.

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