VOGONS


775 and ISA

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Reply 20 of 34, by Grzyb

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-05-05, 16:24:

AFAIK - no, floppy can be used in PIO mode.

Any details on using FDC without DMA?
I suppose boards with FDC but no DMA come with a BIOS that operates the FDC in PIO mode, right?
But what about FDC drivers built into various OSes?
And what about a four-floppy ISA card, with its own BIOS, which presumably does use DMA?

Reply 21 of 34, by Alistar1776

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cyclone3d wrote on 2022-05-05, 19:09:

How does Win2000 not see SATA controllers? Other than the SATA controller not having drivers for Win2k/XP it should just work.

If you want an LGA775 865 based board with AGP but sadly no ISA, there is the ASUS P5PE-vm

If you want LGA775 865 based board with PCIe but again no ISA, there is ASUS P5GC-MX/1333

During the install, it says it cannot find C drive, or D drive. This was first attempt with both C and D being SATA. Second attempt with C and D being IDE, it seen both no problem.

Reply 22 of 34, by weedeewee

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-05, 19:56:

During the install, it says it cannot find C drive, or D drive. This was first attempt with both C and D being SATA. Second attempt with C and D being IDE, it seen both no problem.

That can be fixed by either a setting in the bios or
using the F6 diskette during the install of w2k and loading the appropriate storage driver.

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Reply 23 of 34, by Alistar1776

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weedeewee wrote on 2022-05-05, 20:12:
Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-05, 19:56:

During the install, it says it cannot find C drive, or D drive. This was first attempt with both C and D being SATA. Second attempt with C and D being IDE, it seen both no problem.

That can be fixed by either a setting in the bios or
using the F6 diskette during the install of w2k and loading the appropriate storage driver.

F6 diskette? can you elaborate on that for me please?

Reply 24 of 34, by The Serpent Rider

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Grzyb wrote:

And what about a four-floppy ISA card, with its own BIOS, which presumably does use DMA?

RTFM to see if it can operate without DMA.

But what about FDC drivers built into various OSes?

For Win9x it would be same as HDD, which already operate in PIO by default.

Alistar1776 wrote:

F6 diskette? can you elaborate on that for me please?

Install drivers from floppy during OS installation.

Last edited by The Serpent Rider on 2022-05-06, 05:20. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 25 of 34, by Alistar1776

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-05-06, 05:10:
RTFM to see if it can operate without DMA. […]
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Grzyb wrote:

And what about a four-floppy ISA card, with its own BIOS, which presumably does use DMA?

RTFM to see if it can operate without DMA.

But what about FDC drivers built into various OSes?

For Win9x it would same as HDD, which already operate in PIO by default.

Alistar1776 wrote:

F6 diskette? can you elaborate on that for me please?

Install drivers from floppy during OS installation.

oh, ok, I get ya now. Im not sure I understand how, tho. Win2K needs a boot floppy to copy what it needs for setup. Mine does for some reason, as I couldnt get it to boot to CD-ROM.

Reply 26 of 34, by The Serpent Rider

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Boot floppy is a different thing and isn't required for Pentium II+ systems.

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Reply 27 of 34, by Alistar1776

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-05-06, 05:26:

Boot floppy is a different thing and isn't required for Pentium II+ systems.

right. the system i was trying to use was about Pentium 4 ish. cpu is a Phenom 9750 quad core, socket AM2+. its the hardware that runs my Windows XP, i just swapped the drive to try Win2K and yea

Reply 28 of 34, by Alistar1776

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Heres a thought... since industrial boards are so expensive, and likely dont have support for an FDC on ISA, could a PCI or PCIe to ISA adapter be made? I know modern systems can run SSDs through PCIe, but could I run an FDC using an adapter?

Reply 29 of 34, by weedeewee

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most FDC chips support a several modes, DMA, interrupt, software polling.
It all comes down to software support.

dependent on what you want to do, you can use a 1.44MB floppy using an LS-120 on either IDE or SCSI.

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Reply 30 of 34, by LSS10999

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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-06, 22:44:

Heres a thought... since industrial boards are so expensive, and likely dont have support for an FDC on ISA, could a PCI or PCIe to ISA adapter be made? I know modern systems can run SSDs through PCIe, but could I run an FDC using an adapter?

Costronic had some PCI-ISA adapters, though without any support (you need to write your own drivers).

Traditional FDC utilizes DMA which is usually hardwired to chipset's ISA/LPC DMA channel 2, and in most cases Super I/O chips have built-in FDCs.

If you're trying to use FDC with a very modern board you have to look for ways that don't use DMA. Newer Intel chipsets since 100 (Skylake) dropped full LPC in favor of eSPI, which cannot provide legacy DMA... so no more traditional FDC. Running FDCs using non-traditional modes may require additional drivers or programming logic.

On the other hand, for modern PCs that still need floppy disks you can consider using USB floppy drives which is more available.

Reply 31 of 34, by Alistar1776

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LSS10999 wrote on 2022-05-07, 06:44:
Costronic had some PCI-ISA adapters, though without any support (you need to write your own drivers). […]
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Alistar1776 wrote on 2022-05-06, 22:44:

Heres a thought... since industrial boards are so expensive, and likely dont have support for an FDC on ISA, could a PCI or PCIe to ISA adapter be made? I know modern systems can run SSDs through PCIe, but could I run an FDC using an adapter?

Costronic had some PCI-ISA adapters, though without any support (you need to write your own drivers).

Traditional FDC utilizes DMA which is usually hardwired to chipset's ISA/LPC DMA channel 2, and in most cases Super I/O chips have built-in FDCs.

If you're trying to use FDC with a very modern board you have to look for ways that don't use DMA. Newer Intel chipsets since 100 (Skylake) dropped full LPC in favor of eSPI, which cannot provide legacy DMA... so no more traditional FDC. Running FDCs using non-traditional modes may require additional drivers or programming logic.

On the other hand, for modern PCs that still need floppy disks you can consider using USB floppy drives which is more available.

the FDC ive gone with is the XT-FDC, the sort of DIY FDC that can support 4 FDDs. I know its slower than a traditional FDC, but its cheap, decently available, and does what i need. If that could be configured to use something other than DMA, It could work on industrial boards. The idea of using an PCI to ISA adapter would allow me to choose a cheaper mobo. Im targeting LGA775, with a Pentium 4 670 so im not going to new for this build.

Edit: For context, im planning a build using 4 FDDs, a 720k 3.5, 1.44 3.5, 360k 5.25, and 1.2 5.25, and a CD burner drive to write OS's, programs, drivers, games, etc to proper media for whatever pc I may get ahold of to restore and flip, or restore and keep for collection, or build some for gaming use. I find it easier than installing over network, as modern cables dont fit older ethernet ports, as is the case with my Win98SE system. And I find it interesting to build something that no one would typically build.

Reply 32 of 34, by Tetrium

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What 720kb 3.5in FDD do you have btw?
And you probably won't even need a dedicated 720kb 3.5in FDD. I've never come across any 1.44mb FDD that couldn't read or write to 720kb disks.
1.44mb FDDs should be fully 720kb disk compatible.

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Reply 34 of 34, by Alistar1776

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Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-07, 10:33:

What 720kb 3.5in FDD do you have btw?
And you probably won't even need a dedicated 720kb 3.5in FDD. I've never come across any 1.44mb FDD that couldn't read or write to 720kb disks.
1.44mb FDDs should be fully 720kb disk compatible.

I dont have the 720k 3.5" FDD yet, I do have a 1.44m 3.5" FDD, but i havent payed much attention to what model it is. Ill edit this when i find out tho.