A few thoughts, mostly about the later era systems and your monitor/switching needs:

- I wouldn't worry about AGP 8x AT ALL. Even in the early 2000s it wasn't materializing any performance benefits over AGP 4x. I'm not saying avoid 8x, but if you find a nice 4x board that gives you everything you need for that machine, you won't be missing anything. 😀

- I would do one of two things in response to the SLI/CrossFire note: either completely nix it and go for a very powerful single GPU (this would be my preferred choice), or throw caution to the wind and go with a 4-way GPU setup a la QuadSLI or CrossFireX. Many of the nVidia GX2 cards aren't terribly expensive these days... 😎

There's actually a method to that madness: Tom's has documented single and 3+ GPU systems as exhibiting little-to-no microstutter, in contrast to dual GPU systems that exhibit the phenomenon quite severely in some cases. Additionally, as you move into 3 or 4 GPUs you generally can enable very high levels of AA (we're talking 16x or higher) with essentially no impact on performance. My anecdotal example is my experience with multiple HD 4870s - with two of them I would notice stutter in at least a few games, and was maxing out at 8x AA in many applications (16x in some). With three of them 16-24x AA was basically an "assumed standard setting" and things looked smooth as glass across the board. A single powerful GPU will get you the same smoothness and performance, sans the insanity-class AA, and can lead to a system with much neater wire management and lower power requirements.

- If you want the ultimate Windows XP box, why not go with a DP platform? Like Skulltrail or QuadFX. 😘 I'm just kind of envisioning, conservatively, Skulltraill 5400XS, twin 3.2GHz quad-cores or 3.4GHz dual-cores, 16GB of RAM, a pair of GTX 295s, and a kW+ PSU. Throw a PCIe SSD in one of the remaining expansion slots - to hell with loading screens! 😈

- Any reason for the Voodoo3 instead of something like a GeForce 2? (nVidia does have Windows 95 drivers listed on their website; I've never personally tested this combination though) I think you can still find GF2 Ultras for around $20 (and if memory serves, they were like $600-$700 cards when new... 🤣).

On your video switching thing - why not get a matrix controller and plug everything (or everything with common outputs at least) into it? It'd give you a lot more options for display routing over a KVM, assuming all of your devices have some common display interface (VGA, DVI, HDMI, whatever).

obobskivich wrote:

A few thoughts, mostly about the later era systems and your monitor/switching needs:

- I wouldn't worry about AGP 8x AT ALL. Even in the early 2000s it wasn't materializing any performance benefits over AGP 4x. I'm not saying avoid 8x, but if you find a nice 4x board that gives you everything you need for that machine, you won't be missing anything. 😀

My 8x AGP Geforce 6800 is the fastest AGP card I own that has Win98SE support and it will go on the best/fastest board I own that still has Win98 drivers (Asus P4P800SE), so I don't see the point of not using them for my Win98 build if they are just sitting there. My P4P800SE is one of the nicest 8xAGP boards that supports Win98, so why should I just use a "nice 4x board" instead? I see what you mean if you're thinking to just use an older chipset (i.e. 815E and just forego s478, but I really want to squeeze out the most out of Win98SE and my P4P800SE without having to jump up to WinXP).

obobskivich wrote:

- I would do one of two things in response to the SLI/CrossFire note: either completely nix it and go for a very powerful single GPU (this would be my preferred choice), or throw caution to the wind and go with a 4-way GPU setup a la QuadSLI or CrossFireX. Many of the nVidia GX2 cards aren't terribly expensive these days... 😎

I see what you are saying here, but, as I mentioned, I have a HD6870 in Crossfire already and since I own these video cards, there's no point in just using 1 when I can just use both. I can disable Crossfire in Catalyst software anytime of course.

Comparison of NVidia GX2 you mention and HD6870: http://www.hwcompare.com/6011/geforce-9800-gx … radeon-hd-6870/

I like NVidia and I do think the GX2 card is better than my HD6870 in some respects, but the HD6870 is better in some respects as well...For now, it's been treating me well, but maybe down the road I will try to just get 1 more powerful card in lieu of my Crossfire setup, but of course, I have to make sure whatever I get has Windows XP drivers...I do not want to upgrade this system to Win7. That is usually the limiting factor here.

obobskivich wrote:

- If you want the ultimate Windows XP box, why not go with a DP platform? Like Skulltrail or QuadFX. 😘 I'm just kind of envisioning, conservatively, Skulltraill 5400XS, twin 3.2GHz quad-cores or 3.4GHz dual-cores, 16GB of RAM, a pair of GTX 295s, and a kW+ PSU. Throw a PCIe SSD in one of the remaining expansion slots - to hell with loading screens! 😈

I really like your suggestion...I actually have looked into a very similar setup lately (great minds think alike 🤣 ), but it costs too much to justify making those kind of purchases for me for just a little better performance as compared to my Core2Duo E8500 ASUS Maximus Formula System. I would say overall, I stand to gain about a 25% gain in performance with going with the setup you mention, but it would cost me double of what I paid for my current setup I'm sure....I will keep looking for bargains though...who knows what I may find if I keep looking.

obobskivich wrote:

- Any reason for the Voodoo3 instead of something like a GeForce 2? (nVidia does have Windows 95 drivers listed on their website; I've never personally tested this combination though) I think you can still find GF2 Ultras for around $20 (and if memory serves, they were like $600-$700 cards when new... 🤣).

I actually had listed a Geforce 2 in my list first and later changed to Voodoo3...either way I think I would be happy, but Voodoo3 is my choice just because of compatibility with DOS.

obobskivich wrote:

On your video switching thing - why not get a matrix controller and plug everything (or everything with common outputs at least) into it? It'd give you a lot more options for display routing over a KVM, assuming all of your devices have some common display interface (VGA, DVI, HDMI, whatever).

I actually have looked into getting a good matrix switcher....saw a couple on a local eBay sellers list that were going for less than $20, but there is always something that just wont work for my setup (i.e. strange proprietary connector interfaces, not enough inputs/outputs, missing remotes, need for special out of production cables, etc.). Again, I will keep looking though 🤣 .

For the fast Win9x rigs I would also pop in a PowerVR PCX2 card as a reasonably slow bottleneck for the few speed crazy Direct3D games (and adding ability to play the SGL ones), but unfortunately that's not a card that would work with a Geforce properly.

Using the D3D HAL on PowerVR is optional and you can even do profiles to enable/disable the card for individual games 😀

leileilol wrote:

For the fast Win9x rigs I would also pop in a PowerVR PCX2 card as a reasonably slow bottleneck for the few speed crazy Direct3D games (and adding ability to play the SGL ones), but unfortunately that's not a card that would work with a Geforce properly.

Using the D3D HAL on PowerVR is optional and you can even do profiles to enable/disable the card for individual games 😀

Thanks for the advice. I read up a bit on the PowerVR PCX2...it looks very interesting...I have never used one and none of my friends have ever owned one, so I've never seen it in action....I may hunt for one of those cards and try it out when I can.

EDIT: Just saw one (MATROX PowerVR PCX2) on eBay going for close to $30 + shipping right now (1 bid, 4 days left)...seems a little pricey considering that I can get a Voodoo2 12MB for that price...but I guess it's a rare card and one has to pay for that luxury.

I ran into this issue of having to build too many systems.

Now everything is tucked away and work on a project basis and put a system together on a test bench. I'm a lot less stressed and it's cheaper because you don't need to get 15 cases, 15 PSUs, 15 optical drives, all of which could fail at any time...

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

I ran into this issue of having to build too many systems.

Now everything is tucked away and work on a project basis and put a system together on a test bench. I'm a lot less stressed and it's cheaper because you don't need to get 15 cases, 15 PSUs, 15 optical drives, all of which could fail at any time...

I know...I hear that a lot when I mention what I am trying to accomplish, but I have always wanted to do what I am talking about in this topic...and I have all the necessary hardware now to do it, as well as some extra space, so why not. Besides, I don't foresee many of my PSU's and fans, etc. failing all that often..🤣...but I do see your point though...but it's a risk (and sacrifice?) I'm willing to take.

I know what you mean about storing things away and just working away at things one-by-one...I did do the same for a while, but then just pulled everything out last month, trying again to live the dream and hoping to make it happen this time 🤣

I am halfway there though, as I have made sure to buy about 7 cases like these (posted on other topics here on Vogons) to try and keep everything matching as much as possible and keep everything neat.

Here are 4 of my 7 cases in the photo below.
I bought each one with P/S for only about $12 each from a local used computer store.

It's not really cheaper for me at this point to run one system at a time anyways because I have tons of cases, PSU's, etc. that I have been collecting over the years and most of what I have obtained has been free.

The PCX2 is bottlenecked by the bus transfer speed going from PCI to your host card, which is great for an addon role since it doesn't rely on a pass-through cable and won't cause the signal quality to go down. 😀

regarding your DOS / Windows 3.11 setup

Early DOS with Win3.11 (VGA)-------------S7/SS7 w/ P166MMX and AGP/PCI/Voodoo 1-------------DOS 7.1 & Win3.11

Are there even Voodoo 1 drivers available for Windows 3.1? If so, I haven't found them... not that I have spent a lot of time looking, but I am starting to collect bits and pieces for the same type setup and happen to have a V1 card standing by if there are drivers. Or do you plan to use Windows 95 on top?

retrofanatic wrote:

My 8x AGP Geforce 6800 is the fastest AGP card I own that has Win98SE support and it will go on the best/fastest board I own that still has Win98 drivers (Asus P4P800SE), so I don't see the point of not using them for my Win98 build if they are just sitting there. My P4P800SE is one of the nicest 8xAGP boards that supports Win98, so why should I just use a "nice 4x board" instead? I see what you mean if you're thinking to just use an older chipset (i.e. 815E and just forego s478, but I really want to squeeze out the most out of Win98SE and my P4P800SE without having to jump up to WinXP).

If you already own it, don't mess with it. 😀 My advice was more relating to if you're going out shopping, don't sweat AGP8x - its more marketing gimmick than anything else. 😐

I see what you are saying here, but, as I mentioned, I have a HD6870 in Crossfire already and since I own these video cards, there's no point in just using 1 when I can just use both.

Micro-stutter, CF-X being incompatible with games, multi-monitor support, etc. 😲

I'm not saying you're wrong to use what you have, just that CrossFireX/SLI aren't as perfect as marketing makes them out to be, especially with 2 GPUs. I'd say add a third, but if memory serves the HD 6000 series is where ATi did an about-face and locked that out on everything but the most expensive models (:dead:). 9800GX2 or what-have-you is technically slower on paper, but for DX9 games you really shouldn't notice the performance difference (because this class of card is so totally overkill for those games). Again though, if you already have it, leave it be. 🤣

If you're going out shopping for a QuadFX/Skulltrail platform (as below), why not look at GTX 295? Or a trio of HD 4800/5800 cards? 😀

I really like your suggestion...I actually have looked into a very similar setup lately (great minds think alike 🤣 ), but it costs too much to justify making those kind of purchases for me for just a little better performance as compared to my Core2Duo E8500 ASUS Maximus Formula System. I would say overall, I stand to gain about a 25% gain in performance with going with the setup you mention, but it would cost me double of what I paid for my current setup I'm sure....I will keep looking for bargains though...who knows what I may find if I keep looking.

Last I knew the Xeon chips for such a build were going for fairly low prices, especially the dual-cores, so the only hang-up is the motherboard. I think D5400XS (it has to be D5400XS) is running around $100 used these days. 😀 Certainly has come down from the $6000+ the platform cost when it was new. 🤣

I actually had listed a Geforce 2 in my list first and later changed to Voodoo3...either way I think I would be happy, but Voodoo3 is my choice just because of compatibility with DOS.

Gotcha. I figured either would be total overkill, but why not just take it to the max? 🤣

I actually have looked into getting a good matrix switcher....saw a couple on a local eBay sellers list that were going for less than $20, but there is always something that just wont work for my setup (i.e. strange proprietary connector interfaces, not enough inputs/outputs, missing remotes, need for special out of production cables, etc.). Again, I will keep looking though 🤣 .

Usually (IME) a quality matrix switch is more than $20 (some of the DVI ones can run into the tens of thousands), and should not require any proprietary cabling or other jakey stuff. Look at Gefen, Startech, Crestron, AMX, etc.

JoeCorrado wrote:

regarding your DOS / Windows 3.11 setup

Early DOS with Win3.11 (VGA)-------------S7/SS7 w/ P166MMX and AGP/PCI/Voodoo 1-------------DOS 7.1 & Win3.11

Are there even Voodoo 1 drivers available for Windows 3.1? If so, I haven't found them... not that I have spent a lot of time looking, but I am starting to collect bits and pieces for the same type setup and happen to have a V1 card standing by if there are drivers. Or do you plan to use Windows 95 on top?

😕 Thanks for pointing that out....actually, I don't know...I was just planning for this for a while and didn't even bother to check! 😕 🤣 I thought I read about Voodoo on Win 3.11 somewhere but I don't know if it was just someone talking about launching DOS games from Win3.11.

But part of the reason I even considered a Voodoo1 for this setup was to use it for earlier DOS glide games as well, not just pure Win3.11, so if there are no Win3.11 drivers, not all will be lost....I would still have the Voodoo1 ready to handle DOS games.

No, I will not be running Win95 on top of this setup....I just want to stick with Win 3.11 with DOS. To add to the 'purity' of the Win 3.11 setup, I also plan to use one of my Microsoft Sound System sound cards in this setup along with a second ISA sound card (preferably Creative SB16 or AWE64).

retrofanatic wrote:

😕 Thanks for pointing that out....actually, I don't know...I was just planning for this for a while and didn't even bother to check! 😕 🤣 I thought I read about Voodoo on Win 3.11 somewhere but I don't know if it was just someone talking about launching DOS games from Win3.11.

3dfxzone does not list any drivers for Windows 3.1 and Voodoo1; Windows 95 and higher. Their FAQ states that there are GLiDE drivers for DOS and NT 3.51 as well. That's about all I could find looking things up.

Here:
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/3dfx/voodoo1/faq/

And also here:
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/3dfx/voodoo1/drivers/

obobskivich wrote:

I'm not saying you're wrong to use what you have, just that CrossFireX/SLI aren't as perfect as marketing makes them out to be, especially with 2 GPUs. I'd say add a third, but if memory serves the HD 6000 series is where ATi did an about-face and locked that out on everything but the most expensive models (:dead:). 9800GX2 or what-have-you is technically slower on paper, but for DX9 games you really shouldn't notice the performance difference (because this class of card is so totally overkill for those games). Again though, if you already have it, leave it be. 🤣

Ya, I have read a lot of reviews that say that. I guess I will just keep using my HD6870's for now....to tell you the truth, I originally wanted to buy just one nVidia but I found these two HD6870's for a very good price so I just went for it and I'm stuck with them now. Besides, my Maximus Formula supports Crossfire and not NVidia SLI 😢 so if I do see a better use for Crossfire then at least I will have the option to use it.

obobskivich wrote:

If you're going out shopping for a QuadFX/Skulltrail platform (as below), why not look at GTX 295? Or a trio of HD 4800/5800 cards? 😀

I do like the idea of a GTX 295...if I find one for a good deal I may go for it.

obobskivich wrote:

Gotcha. I figured either would be total overkill, but why not just take it to the max? 🤣

exactly... 🤣 When I get some time to put everything together and test it, things may change....it's all going to depend what games I will be running on it...but yes, for now...I'm going to go take it to the max, as much as the hardware I own will let me.

obobskivich wrote:

Usually (IME) a quality matrix switch is more than $20 (some of the DVI ones can run into the tens of thousands), and should not require any proprietary cabling or other jakey stuff. Look at Gefen, Startech, Crestron, AMX, etc.

Yes, I am aware of that, but luckily for me when I say $20, it's for used units with brand names like Extron and Startech...like you mention....the local eBay place I usually buy from is a recycler and many of these units worth hundreds of dollars usually don't sell very quickly and I can usually get them for a steal of a price and pick it up locally to boot (no shipping charge). But I still haven't found a good all-in-one solution yet...but I'm sure I will soon....this seller seems to have a lot of stock coming in every month.

obobskivich wrote:

3dfxzone does not list any drivers for Windows 3.1 and Voodoo1; Windows 95 and higher. Their FAQ states that there are GLiDE dri […]
Show full quote

retrofanatic wrote:

😕 Thanks for pointing that out....actually, I don't know...I was just planning for this for a while and didn't even bother to check! 😕 🤣 I thought I read about Voodoo on Win 3.11 somewhere but I don't know if it was just someone talking about launching DOS games from Win3.11.

3dfxzone does not list any drivers for Windows 3.1 and Voodoo1; Windows 95 and higher. Their FAQ states that there are GLiDE drivers for DOS and NT 3.51 as well. That's about all I could find looking things up.

Here:
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/3dfx/voodoo1/faq/

And also here:
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/3dfx/voodoo1/drivers/

Thanks for the links! Too bad...maybe I should build yet another system for NT 3.51 as well then 🤣 (not likely)

retrofanatic wrote:

Ya, I have read a lot of reviews that say that. I guess I will just keep using my HD6870's for now....to tell you the truth, I originally wanted to buy just one nVidia but I found these two HD6870's for a very good price so I just went for it and I'm stuck with them now. Besides, my Maximus Formula supports Crossfire and not NVidia SLI 😢 so if I do see a better use for Crossfire then at least I will have the option to use it.

Such is the plight of older motherboards - usually limited to one or the other. You should actually be able to drop an SLI-on-a-card nVidia in there (like 9800GX2 for example), just not a PAIR of them. Otherwise you're stuck with single-GPU for nVidia.

This isn't to say HD 6870 is a bad card - it offers only a minimal performance decrease compared to the 5870, cost less when new, uses less power and runs somewhat cooler, and brings DX11 support. But we *are* talking about overkill machines for older titles, and IMO I'd rather run games like Hitman 3 or Half-Life 2 with 16-32x AA than at 400 FPS. 🤣

I'd say your best bet is probably to leave the HD 6870 system be, and decide if you want to build-up a new XP machine to go after more esoteric hardware; that could actually work out nicely, as the HD 6870 system would make a nice DX10/11 gaming box if it had Windows Vista or 7 installed. Yes I realize this means buying *a lot* more hardware; just thinking aloud more than anything...

I do like the idea of a GTX 295...if I find one for a good deal I may go for it.

I may be wrong but I think around $100 is what they tend to go for. I also vaguely remember something about nVidia revising the GTX 295 in production, and there being two versions of the card (which, of course, logically, means that they should just keep the same model ## 🤣).

Here's a Guru3D article that talks about at least some of it:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_ … b_review,1.html

Yes, I am aware of that, but luckily for me when I say $20, it's for used units with brand names like Extron and Startech...like you mention....the local eBay place I usually buy from is a recycler and many of these units worth hundreds of dollars usually don't sell very quickly and I can usually get them for a steal of a price and pick it up locally to boot (no shipping charge). But I still haven't found a good all-in-one solution yet...but I'm sure I will soon....this seller seems to have a lot of stock coming in every month.

Aha! I was wondering if it wasn't something like that - also explains missing accessories. 😢 (Why is it so hard to recycle everything together these days? 🤣)

retrofanatic wrote:

obobskivich wrote:

3dfxzone does not list any drivers for Windows 3.1 and Voodoo1; Windows 95 and higher. Their FAQ states that there are GLiDE dri […]
Show full quote

retrofanatic wrote:

😕 Thanks for pointing that out....actually, I don't know...I was just planning for this for a while and didn't even bother to check! 😕 🤣 I thought I read about Voodoo on Win 3.11 somewhere but I don't know if it was just someone talking about launching DOS games from Win3.11.

3dfxzone does not list any drivers for Windows 3.1 and Voodoo1; Windows 95 and higher. Their FAQ states that there are GLiDE drivers for DOS and NT 3.51 as well. That's about all I could find looking things up.

Here:
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/3dfx/voodoo1/faq/

And also here:
http://www.3dfxzone.it/dir/3dfx/voodoo1/drivers/

Thanks for the links! Too bad...maybe I should build yet another system for NT 3.51 as well then 🤣 (not likely)

There are drivers for 3dfx Velocity 100/200 (Voodoo3 series) and Windows 3.1x, perhaps that's what you were thinking of?
Windows 3.11 Drivers (Voodoo3 & #9)

I dont think that was it but Thank you very much for the link...I may be interested in using my Voodoo3 card in a win 3.1 setup now.

I don't see how any system running pre-Windows 9x should run Dos 7.1. Dos 7 was purely part of Windows 9x and never released as a separate OS, hence anything before that should be running Dos 6.22 or earlier. It does depend on how you define "ideal" though. And it depends on how accurately the systems should represent different eras.

LunarG wrote:

I don't see how any system running pre-Windows 9x should run Dos 7.1. Dos 7 was purely part of Windows 9x and never released as a separate OS, hence anything before that should be running Dos 6.22 or earlier. It does depend on how you define "ideal" though. And it depends on how accurately the systems should represent different eras.

You're right, I have not defined "ideal" very clearly, but as you say, it depends how one defines it for themselves....and I hear what you're saying about DOS 6.22, but the main reason I opt for version 7.1 is that it supports FAT32, so I can use large drives on older computers whereas DOS 6.22 does not. I have two 30GB HDD's running DOS 7.1, installed on my 486 and it is just awesome to have all my DOS games loaded on the hard drive, ready to go.

As for accurately representing different eras of computing, it would be nice to have the 'appropriate/typical' O/S installed for each era specific build, but in this case, for some of my more modern DOS systems I am proposing, I believe that DOS is DOS, no matter what version I am using (for the most part).

I think for some very early games, it is nice and sometimes necessary to be using an older DOS version, hence why I specify DOS 3.3 to 5 for some of my older systems I am proposing to build in my OP (i.e. old 286/386 and of course my Tandy TL/2). If I am using a 486 or even a Pentium 166 for old DOS games (for most early Sierra games era and above), I don't think it matters if I am using DOS 7.1 or 6.22, or even version 5 for the most part. Any DOS game I throw at it (if autoexec.bat and config.sys are configured properly) would run fine regardless of which DOS version I would run. Aside from Creative SB 16 driver software, I have not heard of any program or game that works on 6.22 that doesn't work on DOS 7.1. Mind you, I have not tried all of my DOS games out on 7.1, so I am not 100% sure, but so far so good. So I prefer to use 7.1 mostly for the fact that it allows for FAT32 HDD's.

Yeah, the convenience of FAT32 is highly desirable, I have to admit.
Is there really any late era Dos games you can think of that would need anything faster than that Pentium 166mmx btw? I would imagine that would cover you until the latest pure Dos games, then you could go 9x on the faster systems?