Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

RAM: I found no difference between EDO of Fast Page memory. Stick with 16MB for better compatibility with older games.

way wrong, if the board doesn't support EDO it won't even boot...

schlang wrote:

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

RAM: I found no difference between EDO of Fast Page memory. Stick with 16MB for better compatibility with older games.

way wrong, if the board doesn't support EDO it won't even boot...

No, many boards can use EDO ram as FPM, you just don't get performance benefit. I'm pretty sure it even says so in one the manuals I have for one of the boards I own.

Of all the Socket 4/5 and 7 boards I own only one have so far failed to boot with EDO ram (Gigabyte 586AP). Older Socket 3 boards might be different.

Picked up a Cypress CY7C187-15PC 64k x 1 TAG chip to fill the U28 DIP-22 spot in my Asus 486SP3G board today. Hopefully this will mitigate the WB issues.

schlang wrote:

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

RAM: I found no difference between EDO of Fast Page memory. Stick with 16MB for better compatibility with older games.

way wrong, if the board doesn't support EDO it won't even boot...

English isn't your first language, so I believe you misunderstood me. When I said "I found no difference", this means that when I tested EDO vs. Fast Page on motherboards that support both, I found no performance difference. Hope this clears it up.

Artex wrote:

Picked up a Cypress CY7C187-15PC 64k x 1 TAG chip to fill the U28 DIP-22 spot in my Asus 486SP3G board today. Hopefully this will mitigate the WB issues.

Also.. finally ordered a bunch of the IS61C1024-10N chips from China. They should be here in a few weeks.

Cars = Washed
Dog = Fed
Grass = Cut

Why not build another 486 while I'm waiting for my TAG & Cache chips to arrive?!

😎

Good Lord.. I shouldn't have had that third glass of wine last night... 😵

But low and behold... I got it working!

Artex wrote:

Artex wrote:

Picked up a Cypress CY7C187-15PC 64k x 1 TAG chip to fill the U28 DIP-22 spot in my Asus 486SP3G board today. Hopefully this will mitigate the WB issues.

Also.. finally ordered a bunch of the IS61C1024-10N chips from China. They should be here in a few weeks.

How many did you order? Expect a 10% failure rate on the IS61C1024 chips.

feipoa wrote:

How many did you order? Expect a 10% failure rate on the IS61C1024 chips.

I had 0 failures on the ones I ordered (16). If you ordered 16 yourself I would say the statistical data for saying 10% failure rate is a tad thin. It's like the SSD drives Artex ordered, if he based a failure rate on his personal experiences there would be a 100% failure rate.

feipoa wrote:

Artex wrote:

Artex wrote:

Picked up a Cypress CY7C187-15PC 64k x 1 TAG chip to fill the U28 DIP-22 spot in my Asus 486SP3G board today. Hopefully this will mitigate the WB issues.

Also.. finally ordered a bunch of the IS61C1024-10N chips from China. They should be here in a few weeks.

How many did you order? Expect a 10% failure rate on the IS61C1024 chips.

25 of them.

My TAG chip (and backup chip) came in this week for my Asus SP3G board.

Unfortunately, after spending about a week working with a Chinese vendor @ AliXPress double-checking and then triple-checking to make sure I would get 10ns (IS61C1024-10N) chips for my L2 cache, today he responds that he can only send me 15ns SRAM memory, AFTER he shipped it of course.

"Sorry, I forgot to update the records, no cargo warehouse, I checked the records, that have the goods, will have such a misunderstanding, really sorry"

and then...

"Sorry, because I use a computer to record my goods, but I forgot to update the record, there is no cargo warehouse, I do not know, so have such a misunderstanding, sorry"

Might as well see if it will run at tighter timings. That is the guaranteed speed but it may work faster

The performance effects of 10 ns vs. 15 ns cache on a 486 are inconsequential. Noticeable performance benefits are controlled by the cache timings set in CMOS.

Vetz, did you use an SRAM tester? I ordered over some 150 units at one point and tested all before sending them to a few forum members. These units indicated a 10% failure. Failed chips were sorted out of the lot. At a later time, I piggybacked another order from a forum member. I received two dozen or so chips. Again, an approx. 10% failure. Prior to my 10 ns orders, I ordered some 15 ns 128x8 cache many years back - 2 in 10 were bad, though not immediately obvious. The failures sometimes pass HIMEM, sometimes worked with your benchmarks, but were not long-term stable. At one point I thought the motherboard was bad... until I got an SRAM tester. With the SRAM tester, I was able to retest all the chips and pull out the unreliable few chips which passed HIMEM, but failed with the SRAM tester. Do you think I am merely unlucky? Or maybe you are just super lucky?

No, I didn't. I've tested them in two different boards and there are no problems. I don't think I've been super lucky, but I believe the failure rate is somewhere between your 10% and mine 0%. Lets see what Artex experience 😀

I'm liking the look of that case with the Mhz display, looking forward to seeing it all built up

Since I added two more socket 3-based systems to the mix, I created a few more case badges (all attached) for those that would like them..

I'm still waiting on my -15ns chips to arrive to boost the L2 cache in these setups and I'll add more RAM as well. I've also got to choose some sound cards for each now that these are set up. I'm interested to hear your suggestions for each setup.

Sound Card Options

• Creative Music System
• Creative Game Blaster
• Sound Blaster 1.5 (with or without CMS-301)
• Creative Sound Blaster 2.0
• Creative Sound Blaster Pro 1.0
• Creative Sound Blaster Pro 2.0
• Creative Sound Blaster 16
• Creative Sound Blaster Awe32 CT-2760, CT-3980, CT-3990
• Creative Sound Blaster Awe64 Gold
• Media Vision PAS16
• Gravis UltraSound Classic (Rev 2.4, 3.4, 3.73)

Build 1: The Cyrix Beast

• Motherboard: BIOSTAR MB-8433UUD-A Rev. 3.1 with "2012" BIOS
• Processor: Cyrix 5x86-120GP (Code: G5K8548B -> 48th week of 1995) "M1sc"
• Memory: 32MB EDO RAM (1 x 32MB 60ns SIMM)
• L1 Cache: 16KB L1 Cache (In Write-back mode)
• L2 Cache: 256KB L2 Cache
• Video Card: STB S3 Trio64V+ PCI (2MB)
• Storage: 4GB CF Card (CF->IDE Adapter)
• Floppy: GOTEK USB Floppy Emulator
• Case: 4-bay (external) AT Tower

Build 2: The AMD Speed Demon

• Motherboard: Asus VL/I-486SV2GX4 Rev. 2.1 running latest available BIOS (0402.001 BETA BIOS from 1999)
• Processor: AMD-X5-133ADZ (Am5x86-P75) - 133Mhz running at 160Mhz (40mhz fsb x 4)
• Memory: 32MB RAM (2 x 16MB FPM 60ns SIMMS)
• L1 Cache: 16KB L1 Cache (In Write-back mode)
• L2 Cache: 256KB L2 Cache
• Video Card: TSENG ET4000/W32P - Diamond Stealth 32 VLB (2MB)
• Sound Card: ???
• Storage: 4GB CF Card (CF->IDE Adapter) on VLB Promise Controller
• Floppy: GOTEK USB Floppy Emulator
• Case: 5-bay (external) AT Tower

Build 3: The Classic Intel DX4 Write-Back

• Motherboard: Asus VL/I-486SV2GX4 Rev. 2.0 running latest available BIOS (0402.001 BETA BIOS from 1999)
• Processor: Intel 486 DX4-100 (80486DX4100) (SK096) (&EW - Write L1 Back Cache)
• Memory: 16MB RAM (2 x 8MB FPM 60ns SIMMS)
• L1 Cache: 16KB L1 Cache (In Write-back mode)
• L2 Cache: 256KB L2 Cache
• Video Card: TSENG ET4000/W32P - STB Lightspeed VLB with 135MHz RAMDAC (2MB)
• Sound Card: ???
• Storage: 4GB CF Card (CF->IDE Adapter) on VLB Promise Controller
• Floppy: GOTEK USB Floppy Emulator
• Case: 5-bay (external) AT Tower

New Additions!!! 😎

Buld 4: The Classic Intel DX2/66

• Motherboard: Motherboard - Asus PVI-486SP3 (SiS 496-497) Rev. 1.2 (A4)
• Processor: Intel Overdrive (DX20DPR66 SZ904) - 66Mhz May swap with Intel 486 DX2-66 (80486DX266 - SX955) for Write Back Cache, but the OverDrive looks so cool!! 😎
• Memory: 16MB RAM (2 x 8MB FPM 60ns SIMMS)
• L1 Cache: 8KB L1 Cache (In Write-Through mode)
• L2 Cache: 256KB L2 Cache
• Video Card: S3 Trio64 PCI (2MB)
• Sound Card: ???
• Storage: 4GB CF Card (CF->IDE Adapter) on VLB Promise Controller
• Floppy: GOTEK USB Floppy Emulator
• Case: Full AT Tower with Digital MHz Display

Build 5: The Intel Pentium OverDrive

• Motherboard: Motherboard - Asus PVI-486SP3 (SiS 496-497) Rev. 1.22 (B4) (1995)
• Processor: Intel Pentium Overdrive (BOXPODP5V83) - 83Mhz
• Memory: 16MB RAM (1 x 16MB FPM 60ns SIMMS)
• L1 Cache: 16KB L1 Cache (In Write-back mode)
• L2 Cache: 256KB L2 Cache
• Video Card: VLB or PCI, undecided
• Sound Card: ???
• Storage: 4GB CF Card (CF->IDE Adapter) on VLB Promise Controller
• Floppy: GOTEK USB Floppy Emulator
• Case: 5-bay (external) AT Tower

[quote="Artex"][/quote]

Kinda surprised you didn't use an AMD DX4-100. Those outperformed the intel DX4-100s, and even some of the early Pentiums, at a much cheaper price point (back in the day).

For sound card, go with a SB-16 with either a decent Roland daughterboard, or an external MT-32/CM-32L or SoundCanvas. The MV PAS16 is nice, but has a few compat issues (and needs a TSR). The GUS is incredible for the few games that actually took advantage of it, but is still good for MOD music creation.

And for purely DOS gaming, a 2MB video card based off the Tseng Labs ET4000/W32 will do everything you need. 2D Windows acceleration is a different story, though...

ElectricMonk wrote:

Kinda surprised you didn't use an AMD DX4-100. Those outperformed the intel DX4-100s, and even some of the early Pentiums, at a much cheaper price point (back in the day).

Sorry but this doesn't match my observations. I found the IntelDX4 to be faster, clock for clock, than even the AMD 5x86. It's also compatible with more boards.

As for Sound Cards, wow spoilt for choice. They are all fast machines, so MIDI is a must I believe. I would say MT-32 compatibility isn't necessary, just General MIDI.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Sorry but this doesn't match my observations. I found the IntelDX4 to be faster, clock for clock, than even the AMD 5x86. It's also compatible with more boards.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I owned one back in the day, and I watched it trounce my BFFs P75 (I'm wrong, it was a P66) in most DOS games. YMMV. IT should be noted I didn't test anything needing that Writewhatever mode that only certain intel chips featured.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

As for Sound Cards, wow spoilt for choice. They are all fast machines, so MIDI is a must I believe. I would say MT-32 compatibility isn't necessary, just General MIDI.

MY BAD Mau1wurf1977! This should've been meant for Artex! *embarassed*

Then a good SB-16 with a Roland GS or Yamaha XG daughterboard, or an AWE64 Gold will suit your needs just fine. Those had the better GM sound patches onboard. The reason i brought up the external SoundCanvas is because it's a GS model synth (superset of GM), and Roland makes good product. The LAPC and external CM-32L make those ancient DOS games made pre-GM sound AMAZING (think Sierra Online AGI games).

The GUS was fantastic, but ONLY with the few games that actually supported it properly (Star Control 2 comes to mind). Most devs just relied on it's SB compat-mode, and generic GM, so it really isn't worth it, unless you intend to create/listen to MOD music these days.

*EDIT*

If I get around to it, and find a free site to upload clips, I can use BASSMIDI to show you the differences between stock Roland MT-32, Stock AWE64 GOLD, stock Roland GS, and GUS specific music samples, compared to some of the huge soundfonts found now like SGM (there's even a 128MB OPL3 FM Synth soundfont! o_0)

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

As for Sound Cards, wow spoilt for choice. They are all fast machines, so MIDI is a must I believe. I would say MT-32 compatibility isn't necessary, just General MIDI.

I failed to mention the modules/DBs as well... I do have the following I could throw into the mix.

• 4 x Roland MPU-401AT's
• Roland MT-32 (Gen 1)
• Roland CM-64
• Roland CM-32L
• Roland CM-500
• Roland LAPC-I
• Roland RAP-10
• Roland SC-55
• Roland SC-55 MKII
• MIDI Daughterboards: Roland SCD-15/SCB-55, DB50XG, NEC XR385, SCD-10/SCB-7
• Standalone MIDI Cards - Roland SCC-1, SCC-1A

I guess my preference would be to either use a standalone MIDI card like the SCC-1/1A or an external module like the SC-55 MKII with one of the MPU-401ATs. Maybe I could use the MT-32 with one of the MPU-401ATs on the DX2-66?

Artex wrote:

I failed to mention the modules/DBs as well... I do have the following I could throw into the mix. […]
Show full quote

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

As for Sound Cards, wow spoilt for choice. They are all fast machines, so MIDI is a must I believe. I would say MT-32 compatibility isn't necessary, just General MIDI.

I failed to mention the modules/DBs as well... I do have the following I could throw into the mix.

• 4 x Roland MPU-401AT's
• Roland MT-32 (Gen 1)
• Roland CM-64
• Roland CM-32L
• Roland CM-500
• Roland LAPC-I
• Roland RAP-10
• Roland SC-55
• Roland SC-55 MKII
• MIDI Daughterboards: Roland SCD-15/SCB-55, DB50XG, NEC XR385, SCD-10/SCB-7
• Standalone MIDI Cards - Roland SCC-1, SCC-1A

I guess my preference would be to either use a standalone MIDI card like the SCC-1/1A or an external module like the SC-55 MKII with one of the MPU-401ATs. Maybe I could use the MT-32 with one of the MPU-401ATs on the DX2-66?

The CM-32L had a few sounds (effects mostly?) that the MT-32 lacked, IIRC. I pick that with MUNT, when playing in DOSBOX, if available.

The SCD-15/SCB-55 were good SB-16 daughterboards. I've got a copy of the 3.5MB soundfont for it, if you wanna hear a recording thru BASSMIDI.

I vaguely remember the SCC-1 being drooled over in game mags of the time, for games that had soundtracks that truly made good use of it. I wanted one, but it wasn't meant to be.

I *think* I saw support for CM-64 and CM-500 yesterday, when I was re-installing some sierra and origin games in DosBox. Not sure about the RAP-10, though.