DBs have ROMs. They do not use RAM. I may be mistaken but the whole point of DBs is that they have compressed samples in ROM for MIDI playback. 😀

PeterLI wrote:

DBs have ROMs. They do not use RAM. I may be mistaken but the whole point of DBs is that they have compressed samples in ROM for MIDI playback. 😀

Yes, I know. Some have small amounts of RAM for holding a map file but that's about it. I was primarily asking if there are any that use the on board RAM for sound fonts, so that you aren't locked into the ROM samples on the daughterboard. The main advantage I can see with the daughterboard is that it is mapped directly to the MIDI port (default 330,) instead of the AWE32's WaveSynth usually at 620. That's the purpose of the AweUtil program (for the most part,) to cross-link port 330 to the AWE32's port 620. AweUtil can also load pre-set Soundfonts (GS or GM I believe are the 2 choices.) What I'm asking is if there is a daughterboard that will allow use of SoundFonts at the MIDI port 330 without having to run AweUtil into memory (it can be set to just load the font, then exit, or load the font and stay resident to redirect MIDI calls.) It seems that someone, at some time, would have designed a daughterboard to do that, or something like it.

That is one of the main problems I had with the AWE32 in DOS, the AweUtil was necessary if you wanted to use WaveSynth MIDI with some older games (that didn't have built in AWE support.) I also wasn't a big fan of being locked into only 2 soundfonts in DOS as well. Windows, sure, load fonts left and right (as long as you have the RAM.) DOS, you have a choice of 2 pre-sets and that's it. Someone, was writing a program to load fonts in DOS, but I lost the details for now (I'll dig them up eventually, once the system is back up and running.) Last I heard, it was buggy and incomplete, but that may have changed. If a DB exists that will loop the port 330 MIDI to the WaveSynth in HW (without having to have AweUtil loaded,) that would make thinks a lot easier (especially with some of my more memory restrictive games.)

So, does anyone know if there is a DB that will use the on board RAM fonts. If not, ok, well, suggestions on the best overall sounding DB? If I'm going to be locked into the ROM samples, I'd prefer one of the ones that at least gave me the same choices as AweUtil (GM or GS.)

I don't believe there is any MIDI DB that uses the AWE32's on board RAM - it's for loading compatible soundfonts only (unless someone else knows otherwise). As far as what DB with GM/GS options sounds best, I would say the Roland SCB-55 (also known as SCD-15), Yamaha DB50XG and Turtle Beach Cancun FX are a good start.

AWE32s have the hanging notes bug, and DBs tend do be quite overpriced compared to the overall superior external modules...

FeedingDragon,

- I know of no such daughterboard or add-on card for the SB Waveblaster header
but you could have gone the AWE64 + SimmConn way (http://simmconn.tripod.com/) instead of the Creative memory expansion

- you might want to consult bristlehog about the AWE32 utilities / development

- you can convert SF2 fonts with more or less success to 1.0 SBK format but yes, AWEUTIL tends to choke on bigger than 2 MB sound banks.

- as d1stortion said, you will also need a good card for digitized stuff / SFX if you mean to play the games with the hanging note bug (see vogons wiki about that)

I have to admit, I've never heard of the hanging note bug. To my knowledge, I've never come across anything like it in playing my games. Maybe I'm just lucky 😀 That simmconn website make getting an AWE64 a little more feasible, checking on total price of switching over right now. I'm afraid I don't know anything about the 64, never had one, and didn't do a lot of research on it (past reading about the proprietary memory upgrade.) Does it need the AweUtil as well? Or will I be faced with the same choice over again with my more memory intensive games (good example is Ultima 7 & Serpent Isle?) Thanks to Microsoft, I've lost all MIDI functionality on my primary system, so many of my favorite games are being moved to my off system instead of being played in DOSBox. Yes, I tried 3rd party MIDI software, and got decent MIDI sound (the Microshaft WaveSynth is terrible,) with BASSMIDI and some nice sound fonts.) The problem is, that I have not found a MIDI volume control that actually works. All I have is a single volume control for everything, and the MIDI volume is maxed. So, I turn the single volume down to 1% and MIDI volume is OK, then I have to (in DOSBox,) set master volume (which has no effect on MIDI volume,) to around 800% just to hear the digitized stuff. This results in good sounding MIDI, but the digital stuff is distorted thanks to the massive amplification I have to use. OK, sorry about the minor rant, one of the many reasons I don't care for Microsoft that much any more. They force me to upgrade, then they remove all the things "they" don't think are necessary any more (such as MIDI support, direct EAX for games without loading 3rd party SW, security features that are "locked" on to "protect me from myself", argh......) Anyways, my current sound research now is on the AWE64 board (5 minutes of research leads me to believe the best choice is the AWE64 Gold, but not set in stone on that yet.)

In the Windows XP mixer there used to be a volume slider for softsynths. This is gone indeed with the changed audio portion of NT6+ where they introduced a per-application mixer. Anyway, yet another reason to consider an external module as you can easily adjust volume there (and not to mention, use it with any computer you want).

Midi Daughterboards normally have ROM, as already stated. Only the Turtle Beach RIO supports transfers of custom effects to its SIPP RAM, but it is painfully slow. The DB interface only has a single midi data pin, so the Turte beach uses midi sysex to transfer the data through that pin.

One method to get the desired flexibility in midi music, is to attach a laptop/netbook with a USB midi connector. Then let it serve as a virtual external midi synthesizer, by running MT32-Emu, Virtual soundcanvas, Yamaha SYXG, BASSmidi etc.

All AWE32/64 synthesizers are semi-software synths and therefore not MPU-401 compatible without software emulation: AWEutil TSR or a Windows driver. Later DOS games support the AWE synth natively. There is nothing to do about that, AWEutil is as good as it gets.

The AWE32s does have another Midi interface, one that is MPU-401 UART compatible. It can be used by connecting a synthesizer to the daughterboard header or to the joystick port. Same goes for the AWE64. The AWE32 has hanging notes. The AWE64 does not, but still chokes on LucasArts iMuse Music. Creative Labs had trouble designing a proper MPU-401 interface, whereas other sound card brands had no such problems.

Well, there goes that idea 🙁 I knew it was wishful thinking to begin with, but it never hurts to ask. I'm now faced with a dilemma, from my searches, it will cost about the same amount to get a DB, as to get an AWE64 + RAM + SIMMCONN (around $70.) That's for an AWE64 (regular, not value and not gold.) I'm looking into the hanging note issue now, some of the games listed as having the problem, I play and haven't noticed anything. Of course, since my off system is in pieces, I cannot check on settings right now, so it could be that I wasn't using MIDI for some reason or another with those games (memory limitations with AWEUTIL, didn't like the results, etc....) Some games (Ultima VI makes a good example,) actually sound better (to me at least,) with the FM synth instead of MIDI. Or the Ultima Underworld games, really the choices made boggles the mind. In UW1, for example, if you jump the "thud" sound of landing is actually a horn blast if MIDI is enabled.... The footsteps are digital sounds, why use MIDI for the jump landing?? So Ultima Underworld is set to FM synth.

About the hanging note issue.... From what I've been reading (still researching,) it only effected re-directed MIDI? Would a good DB eliminate this issue? Again, the main reason for the DB is so that I could get good WaveSynth MIDI without having the AWEUTIL resident in memory. From what I'm reading, the AWE64 (not having the header,) would never be capable of that. I'd rather avoid an external unit if I can, right now I have a basic keyboard attached for authoring purposes, though I cannot use it with this Win7 crap. I'm not a musician, but when entering sheet music, I find it a lot easier to tap on the KB then adjust durations, then to be constantly clicking and moving note combinations. The thing is, with my equalizer (sharing my speakers with 4 systems,) my KB, my 4 computers, a printer and a scanner, I'm out of room for external components. I had toyed with getting a KVM that included audio, but all 4 systems have different output volumes (and various abilities to adjust it,) and the equalizer just makes it easier. FYI - the 4 systems are PC Power System (i3 3.4Ghz Win7,) PC Off System (P3 800mhz Dual DOS6.2/Win98 eventually,) Amiga 2000, and Amiga 4000. With all the adaptors they go through a KVM to share 1 monitor, one kb, and one mouse. The Power System also has a direct DVI connection to the monitor, as newer Blue Ray players require it (which never made sense to me, the earlier players had no problem going through the analog VGA connector, why do the newer ones have a problem.)

FeedingDragon wrote:

About the hanging note issue.... From what I've been reading (still researching,) it only effected re-directed MIDI? Would a good DB eliminate this issue? Again, the main reason for the DB is so that I could get good WaveSynth MIDI without having the AWEUTIL resident in memory. From what I'm reading, the AWE64 (not having the header,) would never be capable of that.

The AWE32/64 EMU8000 Synth is flexible but semi-software, not MPU-401 compatible. Has no hanging note problem.
The second midi interface is always connected the joystick port, and to the DB connector if it has one. It is just an interface and not a midi synthesizer in itself. It is this interface that is MPU-401 compatible. It has a shared data buffer that is too small or something, hence the hanging notes. This MPU interface was there since the Sound Blaster 16, you can consider it like this:
SB16/Vibra16 = Digitized sound DAC + FM music synth + MPU-401 interface (but nothing attached to it)
AWE32/64 = The above SB16 with EMU8000 synth added to it (with its own interface to the ISA bus).

So, the hanging note issue only occurs if you are using the MPU-401 interface? So, if I don't use the DB/MIDI port in MPU-401 mode (that is, Joystick I/O MIDI,) I won't have the hanging note problem. That is one of the things that was confusing me in my web searches. They never exactly said what the cause was, and most seemed to point at the DSP as the cause (example: one page said it never occurs on cards with DSP 4.13? or later.) I've started a second round of searching now, though. I'm looking for MIDI only cards. The only problem with that is that my replacement MB only has 1 ISA slot (for the AWE32, hey it was only $10 and works.) Actually it has 1 AGP (x2,) 4 PCI, & 1 ISA. With dual V2, S3 AGP, & Gigabit LAN, that leaves a single PCI slot free. Cannot find MIDI Synth only card that is PCI (yet.) Don't really want to buy another MB (though, it wouldn't be that big a deal, since the unit isn't put back together yet.) That would solve my memory issues. Games that support AWE, go through the 28MB WaveTable Synth, those that don't go through the separate card. I'm wondering if I can connect the output of the separate card through the AWE32 without too many problems (so I don't have to wire a separate audio line up for the system.) The AWE32 is configured for 220 5 1 5 388 330 620, would have to disable the 330 probably (no manual, have to research that.) From what I've been reading, most MIDI cards sit at 9 330.

Which AWE32 model do you have? On the most common variants (CT2760, CT3900, CT3980) the bug only occurs very rarely (see here for details).

FeedingDragon wrote:

So, the hanging note issue only occurs if you are using the MPU-401 interface? So, if I don't use the DB/MIDI port in MPU-401 mode (that is, Joystick I/O MIDI,) I won't have the hanging note problem.

Exactly, people without any Midi Daughterboard or External midi module will never encounter a hanging note problem.

FeedingDragon wrote:

one page said it never occurs on cards with DSP 4.13? or later.

The DSP version is no good indication. The only thing that held true is that DSP 4.16 does not hang, 4.16 is always tied to the AWE64 anyways. Like I said before: AWE64 can still have problems, when the midi buffer is overloaded it slows the system. That is not much of in issue for most users though.

FeedingDragon wrote:

I'm looking for MIDI only cards. The only problem with that is that my replacement MB only has 1 ISA slot (for the AWE32, hey it was only $10 and works.)

With one ISA slot it is the usual dilemma. Stick to Sound Blaster and make due with a sensitive MPU-401. Or put in a clone card like Yamaha/ESS/Crystal and have your MPU-401, but only Sound Blaster compatibility in 8-bit. (One exception is the CMI8330 that does mimic a SB16)
You can also add a Vortex-2 PCI sound card, of course it requires a TSR driver: au30dos.com. But it has a functional DB header.

On such a modern system some corners must be cut. One option is to drop in a PCI card like the Vortex2 that has pretty solid DOS compatibility (and it also has a working DB header, no bugs). You still can keep the AWE32 or AWE64 for the problematic games. YMF744 and YMF754 cards have nice GM / XG soundsets although some people here still swear on DB60XG superiority by virtue of the bigger sample size.
I would not recommend using the AWE32's line-in, an external mixer or a good PCI card's line-in is much cleaner.

Well, not having much luck finding MIDI only boards. The closest I found was a MPU-401 card that included a WaveBlaster header. It doesn't produce any audio itself, it's just an interface for an external (or internal with the header,) MIDI device. Even then, it was ISA only, and I couldn't actually find any for sale. Nothing personal, and it's an old bias, but I've always much preferred the creative labs products (until they went PCI.) Every other ISA card I ever tried always gave me compatibility problems. Games would crash, sound would be distorted, massive TSRs had to be loaded, etc.... Creative labs cards didn't have any of those problems for me. Even the ones that installed drivers during setup, I just went in and removed from the config.sys file. Even my PnP cards only needed the set blaster variable and diagnose.exe to work. That is, until PCI, then they won't work without the buggy drivers (except in Windows.) That's the whole reason I ended up getting the AWE32 card, cheap RAM upgrade for soundfonts, my boot only has set blaster and diagnose. No TSR's cluttering things up. Except AWEUtil, for those games that don't directly support AWE32/64's (and I'm trying to eliminate that now.) On those few games that choke with AweUtil, and don't support AWE directly, I may just have to settle for FM audio (adlib.) A DB would have been nice, but with the buggy MPU-401 interface and the lack of availability, I've pretty much given up on that. The AWE64 didn't have the WB header, so I would be forced to use an external device for that.

Yes you can stick to the AWE32 in that way, and it would probably work fine for you. If you happen to get a good deal on a midi Module or DB in the future, you can also just try it with the AWE first, and then see if it works for you.

There are quite a lot of ISA based sound cards as you can see in my signature. Many of which I would not recommend, but the latest generations of Yamaha/ESS/Crystal/CMI8330 are very solid in their Sound Blaster Pro compatibility. These are often single-chip solutions.
A proper ISA Sound Card should not have to resort to a TSR, and instead be SB Pro compatible in hardware. Usually they do require a (PnP) initializer, which does not stay resident.
A PCI Sound Card will always need a TSR Emulation driver to be Sound Blaster and MPU-401 Compatible, Because the PCI bus is missing the typical ISA interface channels such as DMA. A PCI card with just a MPU interface for DOS would be silly because it would have to emulate its only purpose.

Yeah, I sort of figured all that 🙁 Going to keep looking for a MIDI only card, and keep an eye out for a 2+ ISA slot MB compatible with the rest of my HW. Actually would need a minimum of 2 ISA, 3 PCI, 1 AGP 2x/4x (well, compatible with the S3 Savage4.) I thought I had found one really cheap, but the board revision didn't support my CPU. It's something I'll probably end up doing after I've put my system back together though. Could take a while, especially finding a good MIDI only board (or good MIDI board that can have the digital sound disabled and isn't that expensive.) What would really rock is a MIDI only board that takes sound fonts, and runs at port 330 natively 😀 But that's a dream I don't see being fulfilled.

Let me know whether I can help. I have Music Quest PC Midi Cards (ISA) that are 99% intelligent MPU-401 compatible. You need a 5V rail PSU probably though. 😀

I am also working on MIF-IPC-A replicas but that may yet be weeks / months and it will not be cheap (custom PCBs). 😀

PeterLI wrote:

Let me know whether I can help. I have Music Quest PC Midi Cards (ISA) that are 99% intelligent MPU-401 compatible. You need a 5V rail PSU probably though. 😀

I am also working on MIF-IPC-A replicas but that may yet be weeks / months and it will not be cheap (custom PCBs). 😀

Unless it's changed since the ones I found on the web search, the Music Quest won't work for me. I'm trying to avoid any more external boxes. Between my 4 systems, kvm, basic piano style keyboard (wasn't specific before,) monitor, scanner, equalizer, printer, and sundries, I've run out of space to put things. I'm basically looking for something that would take the place of the AweUtil redirect for port 330 MIDI calls, so I don't have to load AweUtil as a TSR to get good MIDI sound. Something like the Music Quest that has a WaveBlaster header, or comes with it's own good WaveSynth, as well (and an audio output, doesn't look like MQ has one of those either,) would be ideal. I've pretty much given up on the idea though. First, I'd have to get a different MB (found one for $30 on eBay, but not going to get it unless I know for sure I can/will go this route.) Then I'd have to find a card that would do what I want, and that is starting to look less and less likely. Every card I've found either includes digital sound (and I'm not sure I can disable it,) or is just an interface for an external device only.

About an earlier comment, I don't have a free input on my equalizer, so I'd have to either replace it or run the MIDI output through the AWE32. Replacing the equalizer is a possibility, but only in the future. Unless I get everything I need for the MIDI card extremely cheap 😀