The NEC XR386 clone does a good job and I personally can't hear any difference. It is cheaper and easier to get hold of. Just too bad you didn't buy when they were cheap from China in big supplies.

The DB60XG is just a DB50XG with added analogue input

vetz wrote:

The NEC XR386 clone does a good job and I personally can't hear any difference. It is cheaper and easier to get hold of. Just too bad you didn't buy when they were cheap from China in big supplies.

The DB60XG is just a DB50XG with added analogue input

Well, that's encouraging 😀 I was hoping to keep the cost of the DB down to $100 which is usually the extent of my disposable income. So, as much as I'd like to get that DoX-1 (32MB, and the samples I've heard are just awesome,) that isn't likely unless a used one pops up on eBay for less than half the new cost (after factoring in shipping from Europe.) Looking at "completed" auctions, some of the final costs for the really good ones I want fell within the right range, so I'm hopeful. I just have to be patient and hope the timing is right (income/availability.)

I am curious about one thing.... What would an analog input be used for on the DB? A port for an external MIDI connection I could see. I have to admit, other than hooking up a cheap keyboard to make inputting sheet music easier, I haven't done much with MIDI. I use it because of the small size and versatility, but I don't know a lot about the interface except how to plug my KB in 🙁 And more recently, I've been using a USB adaptor instead of my sound card... The MIDI port was removed from the card several generations ago. That's one of the reasons I don't like Win7, their removal of all things MIDI has killed my drivers 🙁 And the SW has been giving me problems too. I don't want to have buy whole new HW/SW just keep doing this.

Still listening to samples when I can find them. I really wish there was a way to cherry pick the instruments and build my own ROM 😀 I've heard samples on one card that has awesome horns (for example,) but the strings are abysmal. Then I find another with awesome strings but terrible drums. Etc.... Rip the parts I like from each set, put them all together in such a way that I can map it for GM, SG, XG, MT, etc... Then use that on the DB. That would really be the dream solution 😀

One question, how important is it to have an "intelligent" MPU-401 interface? The AWE32's 401 is only UART (which from what I understand is why it doesn't need an IRQ.) I primarily only use this board for games and such, is this something I should be worried about?

It used to be a problem because some games wouldn't work, but SoftMPU solves that.

badmojo wrote:

It used to be a problem because some games wouldn't work, but SoftMPU solves that.

It's a TSR of some sort, right? That's one of the things I'm trying to eliminate, the need for an installed driver (or another external component,) to get MPU-401 running with good sound. So, I might really want to get one of those MB's with an extra ISA slot, so I can eventually get a second card for the MPU-401 port. Was really hoping to avoid that, though there are more multi ISA slot MBs available right now than there were when I bought the one I currently have. Is the Wave Blaster interface standard compatible with Intelligent mode (if I had a board with a WB header that can run in intelligent mode?)

Not to change the topic of my own thread, but does anyone have any idea of the minimal power requirements of my anticipated setup? Lets assume I upgrade the MB. That would be an Intel 440BX MB, 800mhz P3, 384-512MB RAM (depending on the eventual MB,) AWE32, PCI Gigabit LAN card, 2 Monster 3d Voodoo 2 cards, S3 Savage 4 AGP 4x card, eventually a MPU-401AT (or compatible card,) 3 HDD's (if the CF adaptors don't work out,) & a 48x CD-Rom drive. I'd really rather not get another power supply, mainly because finding one that would work is problematical, but I'd like to know I'm not going to run into a power issue later.

badmojo wrote:

It used to be a problem because some games wouldn't work, but SoftMPU solves that.

Looks like even with a DB I'm going to have to something loaded, or spring for a second card, after all. I thought maybe I could hook something up and connect it through the PC-PCI / SB-Link plug (thank you Stokje for letting me know what that's called - in another thread.) But it seems only two Creative Labs SB models (CT4600 & CT4650,) actually had a SB-Link connector (and they'd only provide UART mode anyway.) The last few PCI cards made by ESS (just before Creative Labs "acquired" them,) and several of the earlier Yamaha cards had it (according to web searches.) Don't have exact models off hand, but none of them provided intelligent MPU-401 from what I read. Not sure the SB-Link would have provided what the MPU-401 needs anyway. Also, while I've read dozens of posts (from searching,) of people planning to test out the SB-Link connection, I have yet to have found a single post where someone posted the results 😒

That leaves me with the option of either getting another MB and a second ISA card for MPU-401. Right now I'm looking at that option, Would prefer either a replaceable DB or ideally RAM that can be loaded in DOS (OK, doesn't exist, but I can still dream.) Looks like my choices for true intelligent mode MPU-401 that doesn't require an external unit is rather limited 🙁

Sorry I'm not really following, why would you need to have 'something loaded' for a DB? I'm all for doing things the hard way to extend the life of a fun project but in this case doing things the hard way, with an additional intelligent MPU-401 card etc, is also the expensive way. And if you're talking daughter boards then you're talking General MIDI, so the Intelligent Mode thing is a non-issue.

My suggestion would be:

ESS Audiodrive (~$10)
DB50XG (or clone) OR SC-55 (~$50 for either one?)

You're done!

If you want LA synths, then get an external MT-32 too.

When I say having to have something loaded, I mean drivers or TSRs. My understanding of the ISA MPU-401 is that the game controls it directly, you don't have to load a driver to run your music through the card, you just have to set the jumpers correctly so that the game can find it (or configure the game to what the jumpers are set to.) The same thing goes for the AWE32 in standard mode. No drivers loaded and games can access the SB16 part of the card just fine, as long as the BLASTER environment is correctly set, or the game is set correctly (IRQ, I/O, DMA etc...) If the game is programed for it, it can also access the Advanced Wave Effects table (AWE part of the card,) without any drivers or TSRs loaded. The problem comes with the MPU-401 part of the AWE32. If I have a DB, from what I'm reading, the DB can be accessed by games that are programmed for MPU-401 access (much more common in older games than the AWE,) again without having any drivers or TSRs loaded. The issue comes in that the AWE doesn't support intelligent mode MPU-401, only UART mode. So, if a game only works with intelligent mode UART, I'm back to FM synth (OPL 3,) instead of WaveTable (Through the DB, or through the AWE.) What I'm attempting (and planning to spend money on,) is an attempt to cover my bases. Get an intelligent MPU-401 card with a DB header, install a good DB, and I can have full coverage with good sound through MPU-401 or through AWE. At this point the only games that will use FM Synth are those that just don't support either one (usually means they are FM Synth only in those cases.)

Right now, no second card, and no DB. If a game doesn't support the AWE directly, I have to load AWEUtil as a TSR (it stay in memory,) in order to have anything other than FM Synth for music (if I want to use MPU-401 for example.) What AWEUtil does at this point is basically act as an emulator that interprets the MPU-401 calls into AWE calls and then routs them to the AWE portion of the card. Sounds great, but buggy as all get out. Some games won't run with it active, in some cases my boot is such that it won't run at all (it requires EMM386 I believe, not 100% sure if it's that or something else.) It takes up a large section of RAM, which can also cause my game to be unable to load.

With a DB, I can bypass loading the AWEUtil, so that's what I'm aiming for first (unless I get a REALLY good deal on the other parts.) After I get that, the only games that won't go through the MPU-401 interface to the DB are those that require intelligent mode. Then, the plan is to eventually get the MPU-401 interface (intelligent mode compatible with a DB header,) and grab a MB with at least 1 more ISA slot. Put in the card, disable (or move to another port,) the MPU-401 on the AWE, install the MPU-401 card (after moving the DB to it instead of the AWE,) and I'm good to go.

That is why I started this whole thread, I was looking for a way to get rid of the AWEUtil program all together (aside from it's rather simple sound font loading - still wish I could find an alternative to that.) From what I understand of some DB's, that's all they need as well, a small program (that doesn't stay resident,) to set the synth map for the ROM. All that's running are configuration utilities, and none of them stay resident. If I'm wrong about this, then I'll probably take a second look at SoftMPU, it sounds like it does a better job than AWEUtil does.

Currently the "dream" DB is the Korg DoX-1 (still being sold new retail for around 180 Euro - 150 used for some reason.) Not sure of the conversion rate, but I'm fairly sure that is outside my budget without saving over a month or two. The kicker is, sold listing searches on eBay (not any currently available at a reasonable price,) put the DB50 & SC-55 around $100 each. That, I can get at the first of the month without having to save (I'm lousy at saving.) Probably get it for less if I'm willing to wait and be patient. No rush here, I'm primarily doing research to set up my preferred choices and plan everything out (get a db, get a mpu, get a mb, that sort of thing.) I'm getting lots of information here - which points me where to search on the web, and I'm getting to the point where (unless someone tells me I'm mistaken about something,) I have everything except exact products planned out.

If you want it all in one card then you need to use SoftMPU for the games that require intelligent MPU. If you have never tried it I find it surprising you dismiss it outright just because it is a TSR. You should not have any problems running it and still have well over 600kb free memory if you setup DOS correctly.

If you want to spend 200 dollars extra on an intelligent midi card and use another ISA slot for it, I won't stop you, but I see it as wasted money tbh.

On a side note, one of the reasons I wish to stick with the AWE is the sound font support. Complete wave sets than can be tailored to specific games. At least in Windows you can do that. If a DOS loader is ever developed, you could do it for DOS games too (that support the AWE directly.) The only other cards I could find that used loadable RAM for wave table data, used .ecw(??) format that doesn't have near the support that sound font does. I know someone is working on a DOS SF2 loader, just don't remember exactly where it is off hand (I'll search for it when I'm up and running again, last I looked it was extremely buggy though.) So, the history of discovery.

1) A DB would eliminate the need for aweutil and still sound good (better than fm).
2) There's a bug in SB's that causes problem with MPU-401 devices (including a DB.)
3) A specific set of SB cards don't have that bug (Got one, well priced too.)
4) The SB's MPU-401 is UART only and a lot of games require Intelligent mode.
5) Almost all sound cards (that include digital sound - not just wavetable,) only supply UART mode
6) Got a list of MPU-401 cards that have a DB header or a WaveTable built on (Yamaha SW60XG for example.)
7) Spent a brief moment toying with using the SB-Link plug on my MB, but couldn't find enough data, and couldn't find PCI card MPU-401 intelligent mode cards.
😎 Pretty much finalized the plan t get a DB, the get a MPU-401AT or similar, then finally replace the MB.

DB around $100 from what I've seen (for a good one.)
MPU-401AT Compatible - Not sure about that... Haven't found any "sold" listings for those yet (still researching.)
MB $10-30

Oh, and not even thinking about getting it "all in one" card. Though I could wish 😀 If the SB just had full Intelligent mode compatibility. And I didn't dismiss it out of hand. It does me no good right this moment still haven't put the system back together. I'll probably use it until I get the DB, then I'll use it for the intelligent mode until I get the MPU. But, I set myself a goal when I started this, and I'm going to "try" and reach it.

Have you thought about that the DB will only support General Midi? You can't buy a LA synth on a daughterboard with wavetable connector (only internal solution is the LAPC-I which is a separate ISA card which costs a fortune). All games that requires intelligent mode uses LA synth for the Roland MT/CM series. For General Midi UART works very nicely.

My suggestion to you since you want to have AWE support and DB is to get an AWE32 CT2760 or CT3980. Then run SoftMPU via the external MPU-401 interface to a MT32 (or equviliant) when you encounter the few games that require intelligent mode (SoftMPU is designed to run with these games!)

The problem comes with the MPU-401 part of the AWE32. If I have a DB, from what I'm reading, the DB can be accessed by games that are programmed for MPU-401 access (much more common in older games than the AWE,) again without having any drivers or TSRs loaded. The issue comes in that the AWE doesn't support intelligent mode MPU-401, only UART mode. So, if a game only works with intelligent mode UART, I'm back to FM synth (OPL 3,) instead of WaveTable (Through the DB, or through the AWE.

No, you are mistaken here. As it was mentioned several times, intelligent mode is required ONLY for those games that you can find on SoftMPUs list (add a few obscure Asian titles not yet discovered) = a portion of the MT32 and LAPC-I titles only. What you need to keep in mind that ALL General MIDI devices do not even come close when EMULATING LA synths. LA synths are absolutely unique. You can switch some of the GM devices into MT-32 mode - Rolands, naturally, sound better at this - but it is not the real thing. Never will be.

General MIDI games fare fine on UART mode MPU-401 devices.

Not knowing the cost of the MPU-401AT compatible card, that is more than likely close to what I'll be doing. Unless something that has the DB hard installed on it (like the SW60XG,) comes up for a price I can't resist, I'll probably just be getting a DB. As for any external module, I really wish I had a working digital camera so I could show you my computer area. I don't have room for anything else.... I don't have room for what I have now. The hardware (I'm making a list just sitting here looking around.)

1 flat screen monitor.
1 CRT Old school monitor (you'll see the need for it in a bit.)
1 main PC in a mid-tower case
1 off pc (just a mini-tower case sitting there right now, the guts are in boxes in another room waiting to be put in it.
1 Amiga 2000 desktop size system
1 Amiga 4000 desktop size system
1 4 port stereo equalizer to balance my 4 main computers through the front speakers (main system's back plug bypasses it.)
1 small synth piano style keyboard, usually attached to MIDI in on my main system (still trying to get that working.)
1 4 port KVM so the 2 PC's and 2 Amigas share my flat screen monitor, keyboard, and mouse.
1 tabletop scanner (standard 10"x15" surface.)
1 Ink-jet printer
1 Commodore 128D with RGB & Composite to VGA adaptor
1 1541 External floppy
1 Amiga 500 with RGB to VGA Adaptor
1 External A1101 Floppy Drive
1 TI-99/4a with Composite to VGA Adaptor
1 TI-99/4a Peripheral Expansion Box
1 4 port KVM with only the VGA connectors used for the 3 old-school systems (128,500,99/4a with the CRT Monitor)
1 Powered USB hub so I don't have to dig behind my system (it connects to the last available back USB port
1 PC Keyboard
1 C128D Keyboard (the 500 & 99/4a have keyboard built in.)
2 front speakers
1 center speaker (sub-woofs on the floor by my feet.)
1 "small" area cleared out for my mouse to have a little movement.
1 external drive box (just a cardboard box now,) with my Kryoflux and 2 drives
1 external 1571 drive set up next to my off system (will connect to it when it's back together.)
1 5 port gigabit switch.

The only empty space I have left is approximately 6" x 4" and my small pc reference book exactly fits there (with a magnifying glass sitting on top of it.) So it's not empty after all.

I had originally planned to get an Apple II (that would complete my collection of systems I learned on,) but I'm having problems figuring out exactly where I'd put the bloody thing 🙁

I must have missed the part about all games that need intelligent mode use MT-32/LAPC-I only. Though, if something I came across said that only MT-32/LAPC-I need intelligent mode, I didn't pay it enough attention. Sorry about that. When I get my system together (been putting it off till I have a better idea on the time frame of getting a DB,) I'll find out exactly how much memory SoftMPU takes up. The main problem will be with games like Ultima 7, where I cannot use an upper memory manager. If it takes up less than AWEUtil, it's a deffinate plus. Heck if it takes up the exact same amount, it's a plus (assuming it's less buggy here.) Before anyone brings it up, alternative memory managers, I'm not going down that road again 🙁 Back in the day, when I ended up with 4 different managers installed on my HDD, and basically 4 totally different boot sequences in my config.sys and autoexec.bat files, I gave up on that. Load 1 for U7, 1 for Duke3d, a 3rd for Dark Forces.... All 3 of which caused Windows to crash.... No, I'll stick with one memory manager, and just alter the way (or even if,) I load it. Before loading AWEUtil (for example - which reminds me it was something "other" than EMM386 that AWEUtil requires,) my Ultima 7 boot only has 598k(ish) available to it. Load AWEUtil, and Ultima 7 just "barely" has enough memory to load.

As for MT-32, Even software remapped GM sounds better than FM Synth. May not be as good as the real thing, but I think I've said, I'm not looking for perfection (though it would be nice.) I am wondering, though, why getting a second card that is fully intelligent mode compatible is such a tremendously terrible idea? Expensive, maybe, but is the world really going to end because I got an overpriced ISA card and another motherboard?

The DB's I'm primarily looking for have MT-32 "modes" available to them. Again, may not be perfect replica's of how the MT-32 sounded, but the only question I'm asking is, how much better does it sound compared to FM Synth? Sure, I should probably go the SCB-55 (SCD-15,) route for closer MT-32 mode, but I'm not going to set my heart on it or anything.

Generally, good MT-32 emulation sounds "better" : more instrument-like, less synthy) than OPL2/OPL3. Then again, even OPL synths got barely used to full capability. Just dig up Cloudschatze's OPL threads for nice examples what can/could be achieved on them.

1: Get rid of stuff and/or put it in storage. Then use it / take it out when you are actually playing something.
2: MPU-401ATs typically cost $150 - $300. Clones (not 100% compatible) are a lot cheaper.
3: CM-32Ls typically cost $50 - $150.
4: MT-32s typically cost $25 - $100.
5: LAPC-Is & MCB-1s typically cost $350 - $600.
6: Roland Sound Canvas is the best choice for GM / GS playback in games that support it. SCD-10 / SCD-15 (SCB-7 / SCB-55) are the DBs. CM-300, SC-7, SC-55, SC-55MKII, SC-55ST are the external modules, RAP-10, SCC-1, SCC-1A, SCC-1B are the ISA PCB variants.
7: Intelligent MPU-401 is only required for older games. Some people prefer to play those on period correct hardware, 8086s/8088s/80286s, (which do not support SoftMPU CPU wise typically).
8: LA (MT-32, MT-100, CM-32L, CM-64, CM-500) is not GM / GS.
9: Using DBs that are not Roland Sound Canvas are typically sub par in games because games had music composed for Sound Canvas.
10: No MPU-401AT clones with DB header exist. Only MIDI IN / OUT cards.

In brief: for the best experience: keep it simple. You are overcomplicating this whole subject tremendously and needlessly IMO. Obviously MIDI playback is different (other synthesizers / DBs are really interesting) from core gaming. I have machines for LA and GM/GS and keep them separate. I just turn them on and play the game. No TSRs, no complicated cards with emulation et cetera. However: I am good at finding vintage Roland (and people finding me) so I have all the hardware (and then a lot more). 😀

I can't recommend using the MPU401-AT with the NEC because the MPU401-AT doesn't have a volume mixer and in many games the music will clip / distort. In some games you can lower the volume in the options, but not in all.

Personally I would skip wavetable altogether and go with an external Sound Canvas. They can be had quite cheaply, there are models without LCD display for example.

And forget about MT-32 modes. Waste of time unless you only want to play Monkey Island (and a few other games that only use the default instruments).

Excellent suggestion. Roland modules are pretty small anyway.

PeterLI wrote:

9: Using DBs that are not Roland Sound Canvas are typically sub par in games because games had music composed for Sound Canvas.

Or sound better/equal. It is common knowledge Doom, Descent and Duke3D sound better on Yamaha XG modules. I won't say everyone agrees to that, it is ofc up for interpretation by the ear that listens.

Sure. That is the eternal DB50XG versus SCD-15 debate. 😀 However: overall Roland GM / GS is the best standard IMO.