Jorpho wrote:

Yes, I am very familiar with that post. It makes no mention of the 865 chipset, which is why it seems odd that you have decided the cut-off is specifically there.

Ohh.... There are more than one reason why.
Firstly it is all about terms like "legacy free" and PC-xx specifications from Microsoft.
One example is PC-99, were Microsoft strongly recommended to remove ISA completely.
Just paired a lot of information, to pinpoint what chipset might be the last to support ISA through PCI port (hope that makes sence)

I know some new boards with ISA slots were made during 2006 to 2008.
Yet, they actually do not support ISA-DMA, and so, they can not in my terminology be true ISA boards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_2001#PC_97

I would say, that even with 865, you only get some unstable ISA emulation over PCI.
Yet, it is possible to get it working, not to get any long term use out of 865.
Tried to mention this earlier.

My recommendation, is to get a motherboard from around 2000.
Even if it has no ISA, it might be a reasonable shot at getting a stable SB-Emulation working.
As ISA were removed to get rid of wait states, because the clock frequency was too low compared to PCI.
And with ISA slots removed, so would all ISA technologies inside chipsets and bios's be removed over time.

Jorpho wrote:

brostenen wrote:

Please check this post PCI sound cards and Chipsets from various manufacturers..., it has some quite interresting informations.

Yes, I am very familiar with that post. It makes no mention of the 865 chipset, which is why it seems odd that you have decided the cut-off is specifically there.

It is not the "865" that's the cutoff, it's the ICH5 southbridge. It's just that the last northbridge chipsets you can get that are coupled with the ICH5 (whether it has actual ISA slots or not) seem to be the 865/875, AFAIK. And of those two, the 865 can still be found on the retail market, e.g. the ASRock 775i65G R3.0. Also as mentioned above, Chinny22's boards are BX and 845-based, both of which still have the proper ISA DMA support.

ICH6 and later (the "Express" family) doesn't have the ISA DMA that is required for sound in DOS (with real ISA cards or, I suppose, also with PCI SB emulation drivers). It's easy to disprove this though: someone needs only to come up and show that they've been running SB Live/Audigy on ICH6 or later successfully in DOS (or maybe even VIA/AMD/nForce chipset post-2004 or so).

So I'd ask a simple question to the thread starter (jforrest1980): what's exactly the motherboard you're trying to use SB Live with?

Btw, I too can only speak for 865/ICH5 and 440BX which I have. Never crossed my mind to try it on e.g. my X58 board ... a futile effort I guess 😜

archsan wrote:

So I'd ask a simple question to the thread starter (jforrest1980): what's exactly the motherboard you're trying to use SB Live with?

We already know:

Jorpho wrote:

Also, it so happens that in this other thread, the board in question was revealed to be 865-based.

Those are links, by the way; I'm not just bolding random words. 😉

@Jorpho
Good to know.

archsan wrote:

It is not the "865" that's the cutoff, it's the ICH5 southbridge. It's just that the last northbridge chipsets you can get that […]
Show full quote

It is not the "865" that's the cutoff, it's the ICH5 southbridge. It's just that the last northbridge chipsets you can get that are coupled with the ICH5 (whether it has actual ISA slots or not) seem to be the 865/875, AFAIK. And of those two, the 865 can still be found on the retail market, e.g. the ASRock 775i65G R3.0. Also as mentioned above, Chinny22's boards are BX and 845-based, both of which still have the proper ISA DMA support.

ICH6 and later (the "Express" family) doesn't have the ISA DMA that is required for sound in DOS (with real ISA cards or, I suppose, also with PCI SB emulation drivers). It's easy to disprove this though: someone needs only to come up and show that they've been running SB Live/Audigy on ICH6 or later successfully in DOS (or maybe even VIA/AMD/nForce chipset post-2004 or so).

So I'd ask a simple question to the thread starter (jforrest1980): what's exactly the motherboard you're trying to use SB Live with?

Btw, I too can only speak for 865/ICH5 and 440BX which I have. Never crossed my mind to try it on e.g. my X58 board ... a futile effort I guess 😜

Ahhh.... Now it all makes sence to me.
I really thought that chipsets were devided into "ICH-X" classes, my mistake. Or "ICH-X" were another word for numbers in the chipset.
You know... ICH-5 is would be 869 and ICH-2 would be like, 815 or something.

Just looking at these spec's again, makes it all clear now. That this 845 has ICH-2. Anyway...
The way it is written, would naturally make me think that the chipset is what it is, and not something were manufactors could have produced a product, were XXX chipsets could have multiple choices of ICH-XX southbridge's
http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/product-and-p … ocID=MIGR-39624

I would actually have written, that ICH-5 was the last chipset, and not 865. And then, it all went down to, that the ICH-5 southbridge-chip is the last one, to support all that ISA stuff. Big mistake on me...

Anyway. Is it me, or is PC-XX sepcifications like the same thing? Microsoft did indeed reccomend (strongly) to get rid of ISA stuff in the 99 edition. Some did what was recommended, yet the wast majority of mobo manufactor's did not. (customer satisfaction I guess).

Sorry for bad english in this post, I just came out of bed, so I am a tiny bit "confused". Need coffee now.

Oh...
Why does vogons not have any coffe-cup smiley? Just wondering.

PC-98/99 stuff seem like just a guideline for OEMs from Microsoft for Windows PCs. Of course Windows isn't the only OS the OEMs should care about. Good thing that chipset and motherboard manufacturers didn't comply right away 😀. The number of ISA slots per motherboard went down drastically post-1999 though.

Anyway, now that we know the mobo/chipset shouldn't be a factor, it seems to come down to proper settings as Jorpho already hinted at in first page (yes, I've read the thread fully now :p). I've only tried Audigy on 865 though, maybe I'll look for a cheap SBLive and try it myself.

EDIT: I just did some search, could that specific model SB0220 be the culprit here? I'll try to get the original live (CT4620/4760?), not the later or 5.1 version then

archsan wrote:

PC-98/99 stuff seem like just a guideline for OEMs from Microsoft for Windows PCs. Of course Windows isn't the only OS the OEMs should care about. Good thing that chipset and motherboard manufacturers didn't comply right away 😀. The number of ISA slots per motherboard went down drastically post-1999 though.

Anyway, now that we know the mobo/chipset shouldn't be a factor, it seems to come down to proper settings as Jorpho already hinted at in first page (yes, I've read the thread fully now :p). I've only tried Audigy on 865 though, maybe I'll look for a cheap SBLive and try it myself.

EDIT: I just did some search, could that specific model SB0220 be the culprit here? I'll try to get the original live (CT4620/4760?), not the later or 5.1 version then

Yeah....
I want to add, that getting a PC-99 specified mobo, would actually give you around 80 to 90 percent chance of getting SB-Emulation working.
Running audigy is somewhat easier than live, for what I have heard. You might want to search for an original audigy one card.
Someone here on Vogons are talking about some hacked drivers, that would allow the original audigy2 to emulate SB16 in Dos.

For the Live card, mine sprung to life, using these drivers: http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/snddosdr.htm
It did not work, when I tried the drivers found on Vogons drivers collection.
I susspect the ini-file to be incomplete, and for what I can see, it lacks some vital information about the default emulation.
I am talking about the "CTSYN.INI" file in the DOSDRV directory.
The one ini file I got the card working with, has like two sections of IRQ/DMA/IO/PCI-PORT settings.

The other issue I had, was that I had to let the motherboard sellect the PCI-PORT and hardware IRQ settings.
Then it was simply a question of changing the settings written in CTSYN.INI and finally rebooting the system.

Yep that's what I had with my 865/ICH5 mobo, an Audigy1 (OEM). I also had A2ZS for a short while but sold it 😐 . Will have to get one back. It's the original Live! that I haven't tried.

Btw, brostenen, what's the version of your SBLive! card (CT-xxxx)?

archsan wrote:

Btw, brostenen, what's the version of your SBLive! card (CT-xxxx)?

That would be the 4620 😀
Just to make shure, this link is a copy of the drivers I downloaded to make it work... (one can never get too many links)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13450020/SBLIVE.zip

brostenen wrote:

I susspect the ini-file to be incomplete, and for what I can see, it lacks some vital information about the default emulation. I […]
Show full quote

I susspect the ini-file to be incomplete, and for what I can see, it lacks some vital information about the default emulation.
I am talking about the "CTSYN.INI" file in the DOSDRV directory.
The one ini file I got the card working with, has like two sections of IRQ/DMA/IO/PCI-PORT settings.

The other issue I had, was that I had to let the motherboard sellect the PCI-PORT and hardware IRQ settings.
Then it was simply a question of changing the settings written in CTSYN.INI and finally rebooting the system.

Isn't CTSYN.INI created by SBCFG.EXE ?

Not in my case.
I unzipped the drivers in C:\DRIVERS\SBLIVE and edited all config files manually in order to get it to work.

archsan wrote:

PC-98/99 stuff seem like just a guideline for OEMs from Microsoft for Windows PCs. Of course Windows isn't the only OS the OEMs should care about. Good thing that chipset and motherboard manufacturers didn't comply right away 😀. The number of ISA slots per motherboard went down drastically post-1999 though.

Anyway, now that we know the mobo/chipset shouldn't be a factor, it seems to come down to proper settings as Jorpho already hinted at in first page (yes, I've read the thread fully now :p). I've only tried Audigy on 865 though, maybe I'll look for a cheap SBLive and try it myself.

EDIT: I just did some search, could that specific model SB0220 be the culprit here? I'll try to get the original live (CT4620/4760?), not the later or 5.1 version then

You want the original 4.1 Live!, that can use the VXD liveware drivers without issues like the one brostenen showed, they can also not have the gold connectors, instead red, green, blue, pink, those are live values, some have much bigger chips for the emu101k and crystals too on the early models.
Avoid the ones with 5.1 and Digital Tags on them, they are not desirable, and will cause you problems.

Either way I'd avoid the live! entirely.... Get a Yamaha YMF-724 of some sort for 5$ if you want Really good OPL-3, that sounds like it should in dos on a PCI sound card. Assuming it would work on an 865, prob have way more luck on a viachipset, they kept support up much longer for ddma.

@brostenen
That's the original SBLive! so no surprises there. 😀

@AlphaWing
Yeah I'm familiar with the original 1998 pair (Live! and Live! Value). They're not technically "4.1" though, as they don't have the LFE/subwoofer channel, so it's really just 4-channel. That's why you'll see in e.g. Creative/Cambridge SoundWorks FourPointSurround or FPS2000, there's no separate subwoofer output. Tbh I don't really have a need/want for older sound stuff on PCI since I have ISA rigs for that. Just an excuse to collect a 1998-edition SB Live! "Gold" I guess.

As to the OP's SB0220 or any "impure" variations of later SB Live! ... well screw that. No use tinkering with the settings now if the (emulation) driver can't even detect the thing, so why bother? As has been said, Audigy1 or esp. Audigy2 ZS is a better choice anyway, in features and quality (plus better drivers).

Don't mind my incorrect terminology. I tend to call the originals 4.1 cause of the 5.1 🤣.

I have a whole box of LIVES! about 20 or so, of lots of makes, the Digital 5.1's are the worst of the lot, they can be even a pain in 9x, with all sorts of pci "latency issues" where the early models rarely have issues in my experience, even on older machines.
I often pair them ISA cards on machines with room, as its not worth using them in dos really.

I was just nitpicking :p

Well, I did intend to buy the DE 5.1 back in 2001. DVD and Dolby Digital/DTS playback on PC was the rage then. Good thing I waited, as shortly after that Audigy came along. 😀

Now since you have that lot, do you happen to have any of the "second gen" Live! aka the CT4760 variants (incl. Platinum/X-Gamer/MP3, all non-5.1)? What about them? Boxed copies can still be found cheap sometimes.

Yea I got a couple x-gamers,mp3's they are gold plated too, there just as compatible as the original, they have the smaller crystal usually, nor is the emu101k so bulked out, its in a thinner plastic shell, they can use the Liveware drivers with no issues, the install disk comes with it after all.
Don't have the Boxes anymore, acquired most of them from a vendor getting rid of "Old stuff" at a hamfest years ago, tho a couple I actually bought when the Live! was new, 1 X-gamer, and a SB512, the value version of the value, which has to use different drivers, and I haven't used in years.

The plat isn't really that special, you can pretty much plug in the live! drive into any SBLIVE! with the I/O EXT labeled pins on it, and suddenly it has the same features.

The OP wanted the card to run through stright DOS right? did it work if you ran DOS games through Windows?

I just had this issue with a Compaq EN a few weeks back that only featured PCI slots. The machine had onboard sound but it didn't emulate SB at all or at least I couldn't figure out how to make it. So first I tried a Monster MX300 but it kept asking for a "primary PCI slot" and refused to work (the machine used a riser card). then I tried an ensoniq audioPCI card that worked but sounded god awful. finally I tried a SB Live! CT4780 and after playing with a few different drivers I got one to work. I haven't tried booting to DOS but via Windows it seems to do SB emulation pretty nicely. I've only tested Wolfenstein 3D and Duke3d though but it seems to work pretty good.

archsan wrote:

@brostenen
That's the original SBLive! so no surprises there. 😀

Well....
I have this 865/ICH5 board, and the problem is not exclusively regarding the LIVE card.
I tried to get SB emulated on a Creative Ensonic AudioPCI (CT4810).

It turns out that the problem is only slightly different here.
The LIVE is stable in 15 to 20 minnutes, and the Ensonic AudioPCI is stable for maby 30 to 40 minnutes.
When the LIVE dies, I have to reboot (cold and warm).
When the Ensonic AudioPCI dies, I need to turn off the computer and wait for up to 10 minnutes.
I can not remember how long, yet is is like the card need the computer to get rid of all power.

So...
It is not the LIVE wich is the only problematic card, regarden such new chipsets.
I have only managed to get the LIVE and AudioPCI working on that board from a HP/Compaq d530-SFF machine.
The boards that I have tried it in, and failed to get them to work, are the board listed below.

Asrock K7S41 - SIS741-Chipset: Working in Win98 and Os/2 only. With Matrox G400, it makes a fantastic Win98-Box.
Asrock P4V88 - VIAPT880-Chipset: Never tried Win98 and Os/2 is not supported, general midi works in DOS though.
Asus P5B-VM - G965/ICH8-Chipset: Never tried other operating systems than DOS, and it failed 100%.

Just for curiosity's sake, I'll get back to it when I have acquired a proper Live! card (CT4620/4670/4760), to compare it with Audigy1/2ZS and MX300 (Vortex2) on 865/ICH5. Those early Live! series are getting rarer in the local market so it might take a while. Oh, and I remember I actually had a Yamaha PCI card (lost it ages ago) but don't recall ever using it for DOS.

Sorry for this OT post, but please can the OP or a moderator fix the subject of this thread? It's driving me nuts whenever it shows up in new posts 😀