I made this comparison a few years ago: DVD accelerators compared

elianda wrote:

I made this comparison a few years ago: DVD accelerators compared

I forgot about your tests. More interesting info there. Thanks for linking us to it.

swaaye wrote:

computergeek92 wrote:

I had thought if I went with too fast a graphics card that the PMMX 233 would become a bottleneck. What is the fastest card to use without any bottlenecks? A Rage 128?

Seems like a good bet to me. I might pick up a Rage 128 Pro card and experiment with it.

Though your problem is you are limited to PCI right? Rage 128 is typically AGP, other than the Apple versions of the cards.

Rage 128 XL is a common pci variant. Used typically in and imbedded in servers, I have one that is 8mb.

What about a Matrox G200? 😁

Look for a Sigma Designs REALmagic Hollywood Plus

I have a couple of Creative DXR-2 boards that haven't been used in years. I know we can't discuss selling equipment here, we can discuss it on another forum if you want, I'll sell it very cheaply as I have no use for it.

What's the Matrox Millennium G450 like, there seem to be a bunch of them about on ebay (US & UK)

Matth79 wrote:

What's the Matrox Millennium G450 like, there seem to be a bunch of them about on ebay (US & UK)

None of the Matrox chips have full MPEG2 acceleration. G450 is the first with motion compensation processing but that's only part of the process. Some Matrox cards supported a DVD decode daughtercard.

computergeek92 wrote:

I have built what I call my "best Windows 95 gaming PC" composed of this:

Does Windows 95C even support DVD playback one way or another? Even Windows 98 has problems with multisession DVD-ROMs. (Back when I had a system that was that slow, the only playback software I would consider would have been MoviX or Geexbox, which are standalone, tiny versions of Linux that boot off a CD.) EDIT: there are some (old) players that run, apparently.

Just in case it matters, it might also be worth pointing out that DVD video playback won't really help you with any particular games (and the games for which it might matter probably aren't very fun).

The ReadMe.txt from Intervideo's WinDVD 2000 Version 2.6 may be of interest:

1InterVideo WinDVD
2
3Version 1.2
4
5End-User Release Notes
6
7Welcome to InterVideo's WinDVD, the premier DVD playback application for the PC. 
8The following are some notes users may find useful when starting to use WinDVD.
9
101) System performance requirements:
11
12The PC has a variety of components that make up its combination of capabilities. 
13Software DVD playback quality and performance depends on several of these components 
14heavily. They include:
15
16CPU Speed
17Graphics Subsystem
18Graphics Bus Type
19Graphics Memory
20Audio Subsystem
21Audio Bus Type
22System Memory
23System Cache Sizes
24
25Most important are the graphics subsystem and the CPU. Software DVD has several 
26playback modes. These include:
27
28a) Software only playback, with all decode processing done by the CPU.
29b) Motion compensation hardware assistance performed by the graphics processor.
30c) Motion compensation and IDCT (inverse discrete cosine transforms) hardware assistance 
31   performed by the graphics processor.
32
33Each successive case reduces the load on the CPU, so CPU requirements can vary widely 
34based on the graphics processor.
35
36In addition, there are two types of content available, one based on film
37(typically Hollywood movies) and the other based on video (music videos and Betacam/
38camcorder content). Film based content plays back at 24 frames per second and video 
39based content plays back at 30 fps or 60 odd and even fields per second. Video content 
40requires more horsepower to decode, and will use more CPU than its film-based cousin.
41
42So, with all that in mind, here's what you can expect, based on some examples of 
43CPU types and speeds:
44
45a) Software only playback of film content: 300A Celeron CPU
46b) Software only playback of video content: 350 MHz Pentium II CPU
47c) Motion Compensation assisted playback of film content: 266 MHz Pentium II CPU
48d) Motion Compensation assisted playback of video content: 333 Celeron CPU
49e) MC and IDCT assisted playback of film content: 233 MHz Pentium II CPU
50f) MC and IDCT assisted playback of video content: 300A Celeron CPU
51
522) Best video playback is achieved on graphics subsystems that focus on video as well 
53as 3D performance.
54
55These include the Matrox G200, ATI Rage Pro series, the S3 Savage 3D and GX2 chips,
56the SiS 6326 DVD, and Nvidia TNT.
57
58Other qualified graphics subsystems include:
59
60The Nvidia Riva 128 series, the Intel i740 and Real3D Starfighter series, the 

613DLabs Permedia 2, and the 3Dfx Voodoo Banshee.
62
63Support is currently being added for the NeoMagic 128 AV chip. Aside from this chip, 
64graphics subsystems should have at least 4MBs of video memory.
65
663) When motion compensation hardware assistance is provided by the graphics
67subsystem, brightness and color controls may not be supported.  On such systems,
68you need to disable motion compensation hardware assistance in order to enable
69brightness and color control.  This, however, may increase the CPU usage.
70To disable motion compensation hardware assistance, right click on the video
71window, select Properties, select the Display tab, and uncheck the Hardware
72Motion Compensation checkbox.
73
744) WinDVD requires the DirectX 6 runtime to be installed prior to running.
75
765) DVD movies are created at 720x480 video resolutions. It is strongly recommended that 
77you set your desktop to at least 800x600 resolution.
78
796) Many DVD titles offer a 16x9 "Widescreen" version (also called Anamorphic). These 
80versions are best viewed at a desktop setting of 1024x768.
81
827) Make sure you have the DMA setting for your DVD-ROM drive turned on before running 
83WinDVD. This is accomplished by right clicking on the My Computer icon on your desktop, 
84selecting Properties, selecting the Device Manager tab, double clicking on the CD-ROM 
85device, selecting the DVD-ROM drive that is present, selecting Properties, selecting the 
86Settings tab, and enabling the DMA check box. If there is no DMA checkbox available on 
87your system, you may have a motherboard that does not support DMA, or you may need a new 
88set of drivers to update your motherboard support. Verify the type of motherboard that 
89you have and check the website of that manufacturer for an updated "chipset" driver. 
90Some motherboard websites are listed below:
91
92Intel - www.intel.com
93VIA - www.via.com.tw
94ALi - www.ali.com.tw
95
968) After installing WinDVD and inserting a DVD disc, WinDVD should automatically detect 
97the disc and begin playing the movie. If this does not happen, launch WinDVD and open the 
98Properties dialog box, and select your drive from the Default DVD Drive drop down box.
99
1009) Graphics subsystems based on the AGP Bus interface will perform up to 30% faster than 
101those based on the PCI Bus.
102
10310) Audio subsystems based on the PCI Bus will perform up to 15% faster than based on the 
104ISA Bus.
105
10611) DVD movies have a tendency to get dirty over time and this could possibly cause decode 
107errors. If a movie should stop randomly, please try cleaning the disc before calling 
108technical support.
109
11012) 3DSound is an option, and if the button is grayed-out, this option was not included 
111by your OEM. 4 Channel and 6 Channel audio support requires specific audio hardware and 
112are also optional.
113
11413) This software REQUIRES the original CD to be present to install, or re-install, 
115the product.
116
11714) Re-installing the software will NOT reset the region selection options.
118
11915) This product is being delivered to end-users as an OEM product, most often bundled 
120with a hardware component, or as part of the system itself. End-users requiring support 
121should directly contact the OEM provider of the software.
122
123All rights are reserved by InterVideo, Inc 1998.

swaaye wrote:

None of the Matrox chips have full MPEG2 acceleration. G450 is the first with motion compensation processing but that's only part of the process. Some Matrox cards supported a DVD decode daughtercard.

I thought Parhelia did; it's kind of irrelevant for an MMX 233, but still. 😊

Jorpho wrote:

Does Windows 95C even support DVD playback one way or another? Even Windows 98 has problems with multisession DVD-ROMs. (Back when I had a system that was that slow, the only playback software I would consider would have been MoviX or Geexbox, which are standalone, tiny versions of Linux that boot off a CD.) EDIT: there are some (old) players that run, apparently.

Just in case it matters, it might also be worth pointing out that DVD video playback won't really help you with any particular games (and the games for which it might matter probably aren't very fun).

I had no trouble in 98SE with Creative DxR3 (the Sigma Hollywood card mentioned earlier is essentially the same thing) and its associated software. At least with commercial DVDs. Haven't tried it with 95C though. The box says 95 OSR2 and NT 4.0 are supported, however.

There was a thread a little while ago about games that can use hardware MPEG cards - there's apparently a few of them. This thread:
Anyone have/use Sigma Design's RealMagic ISA MPEG decoder? Games list?

Apparently Parhelia still lacks iDCT processing.

Here, DVD accelerators compared , take a look at elianda's awesome research 😀

swaaye wrote:

Apparently Parhelia still lacks iDCT processing.

I see. Thanks for clarifying. 😀

ODwilly wrote:

swaaye wrote:

Though your problem is you are limited to PCI right? Rage 128 is typically AGP, other than the Apple versions of the cards.

Rage 128 XL is a common pci variant. Used typically in and imbedded in servers, I have one that is 8mb.

Rage XL is not Rage 128, it is basically a die-shrinked Rage Pro. Worse than a Rage 128 both for MPEG and 3D.
Since computergeek92 already has a Rage 128 I'd try to make this work with the proper player software. As said before, the Rage 128 is the first ATI chip that not only offers motion compensation but also iDCT. Later ATi cards (Radeon) also have this, but I have seen a Radeon 7500 PCI not working on a 430HX mainboard. With nVidia you'd have to upgrade to a GF4MX, the first one to have iDCT. Not very balanced, not sure if this will work with the board, and probably not that easy to find in PCI.
I also agree with the idea of a dedicated DVD accelerator card, those are found cheaply. The board seems to have 4 PCI slots so together with VGA, LAN and EIDE card these would all be filled.

^Sorry, my mistake. I agree, since you already have the pci Rage 128 It would be worth giving a shot and be the most inexpensive option for you.

Probably best experience and time correct hw should still be the Dxr3 or Hollywood+ dvd decoder card. With a CRT monitor still today it delivers in my opinion one if not the BEST quality ever and smooth experience. Only bad was the vga passtrough cable that indeed smoothed a bit too much and sometime got interferences in 2D quality.

386SX wrote:

With a CRT monitor still today it delivers in my opinion one if not the BEST quality ever and smooth experience.

...Are you suggesting it is in some way superior to what a modern PC (or a $50 DVD player) can do?

Jorpho wrote:

386SX wrote:

With a CRT monitor still today it delivers in my opinion one if not the BEST quality ever and smooth experience.

...Are you suggesting it is in some way superior to what a modern PC (or a $50 DVD player) can do?

I couldn't say it was or was not superior technically. Probably there's space for discussing both possibilities. If you try for example a game on a Commodore 64 real console with the bad RF video output on old crt tv, and after that you try on a PC the same game on a software based Commodore 64 emulator on an high res IPS LCD with HDMI octa-core based and OS, which game experience is better?

At first if we immediately compare many would say the second but we need to think it was a dedicated hw solution with its ram, processor, timings, filters (good or bad) running by itself with JUST that task to do.
It maybe had its flaws cause compared to newer solutions, the first thing you felt was that a modern direct hdmi or vga connection (without the passhrough cable) got better output signals cause we could get signal cable noises/excessive smoothness. But with this cards we must consider a real CRT NATIVE resolution (like 800x600) similar to the real dvd resolution and not all the upscaling lcd stuff resulting with an almost pixel-to-pixel ratio, IMHO.
If you can pass over the softness of the vga passthrough cable and some less saturated colors, we could appreciate the really good quality of the video decoding resulting and well hidden mpeg noise. But the thing that for me make it epic is smoothness and frame rate stability you immediately appreciate.

obobskivich wrote:

AFAIK none of the 3dfx cards actually will do anything for h/w DVD decoding.

I could be wrong but I remember that somewhere the Voodoo3 3000 (only the 3000 btw...(?)) were advertized with some hardware color transformation assisting... did anyone remember? 😁