VOGONS


Reply 80 of 132, by keenmaster486

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Yes! Precisely.

I wish software developers' philosophy would go something like this:

"Develop on a Pentium III and make it do everything you wanted it to do, and fast. Only if there's absolutely no way you can make it work without better hardware do you upgrade your development system. Only after you're done may you load it on your i7-6900K with 16GB of RAM and a GTX 1080 and watch it fly."

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 81 of 132, by FGB

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I have a very low end PC as my main office computer: It's an AMD Kabini based Micro-ATX system. Athlon 5350 Socket AM1 APU (true quad core design), 2GHz, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD, Radeon HD8400 iGPU. Works like a charm with both Linux and Win10. Draws 15-18 watts when used for its purpose, max. 22 watts when I play games or watch 1080p material. Low end but exactly what I want (reasonable speed and very low power consumption).

www.AmoRetro.de Visit my huge hardware gallery with many historic items from 16MHz 286 to 1000MHz Slot A. Includes more than 80 soundcards and a growing Wavetable Recording section with more than 300 recordings.

Reply 82 of 132, by notsofossil

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Lowest would be my Thinkpad T42 running Windows ME. I can browse the internet using the built-in Wi-Fi (Firefox 3.6.28 + KernelEx), use Skype (hacked 3.8 version), watch videos (VLC 0.8.6) and even use my Willem EPROM programmer. Best of all, I can run my favorite PC games on their intended OS, Win9x.

Thinkpad T42 Win9x Drivers | Latitude D600 Win9x Drivers
Next: Dell Inspiron 8000

Reply 83 of 132, by 386SX

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senrew wrote:

Honestly...the breakpoint is needing to use the modern web. EVERYTHING else that I personally need to do can probably be done on a 486 running win3.1.

I understand your point, when I think that I used Autocad on a 486 120Mhz back in the 1996/7 and I never heard anybody says it was slow or whatever.

Reply 84 of 132, by 386SX

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keenmaster486 wrote:

Yes! Precisely.

I wish software developers' philosophy would go something like this:

"Develop on a Pentium III and make it do everything you wanted it to do, and fast. Only if there's absolutely no way you can make it work without better hardware do you upgrade your development system. Only after you're done may you load it on your i7-6900K with 16GB of RAM and a GTX 1080 and watch it fly."

But then people would not buy new hardware and would stay with the old PIII.

Reply 85 of 132, by ratco

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I don't have the need for it now and hope I won't be forced to it. But for the sake of fun and intelectual challenge I have been configuring my pentium 1 latptop to use as an everyday machine. I don't want to use Windows (though it is installed to play games like Virtua Fighter 2 and House of Dead), so I go with (Free)DOS.
So far I got it to:
-Access USB drives (usbaspi.sys and di1000dd.sys);
-Read PDFs at an acceptable speed and quality (MuPDF);
-Read DOCs with acceptable formatting, though I would hesitate using it with heavy documents from my job (Antiword);
-Open all image files, though some gigantic pics might fail to load properly (PictView);
-Play music in the background which I love to do while working on the PC, DOS has no special privileges there 🤣, gotta multitask (PlayMidi);
-Play all sound file types, good for podcasts and the news etc (Mpxplay);
-Play videos downloaded from youtube which is important to watch the news coverage, documentaries, online tutorials, etc (QuickviewPro);
-Have a clock showing on the screen all the time in text mode, very handy (clock0.com);
-Have a password database (passbox.exe);

Things I have yet to try:
-Internet (I have tried some local html files, and Arachne or Links seem to suffice). Email would probably use Pegasus or FlMail;
-Creating documents (Wordperfect with support from wpdos.org would be a candidate).

All in all, if I had a modem/router available to use internet with it, I would be ok using it for some casual time. Nothing beats my GNU/Linux machine of course (which is itself 5/6 years old and will keep running for the next 10 years).

Reply 86 of 132, by keenmaster486

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386SX wrote:

But then people would not buy new hardware and would stay with the old PIII.

On no, you've exposed my evil plot 😈
I think the idea is that you set the requirements for what your program needs to do. Obviously if you're programming a demanding video game or something, you'll have to start with something modern because your requirements are far, far greater than for word processing. Seriously, look at the system requirements for Office 2016:

Office 2016 Home and Student edition 1 GHz processor. 2GB RAM. 3 GB of available disk space; better to have some extra space for […]
Show full quote

Office 2016 Home and Student edition
1 GHz processor.
2GB RAM.
3 GB of available disk space; better to have some extra space for temp files.
Screen resolution of a minimum 1280 x 800.
Windows 7 SP1 or above operating system; Works best on latest operating system according to Microsoft.

None of that is actually necessary for a word processing suite.

Edit:

ratco, I've had good luck with the Dillo browser for Internet on DOS. I used one of those Orinoco WiFi cards and it actually is pretty smooth on my Pentium MMX/166 laptop.
Another edit: Also, for creating documents in pure DOS Word Perfect 6.1 is da bomb. Pretty much the only usable word processing program that has a wysiwyg interface in DOS.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 87 of 132, by 386SX

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keenmaster486 wrote:
On no, you've exposed my evil plot >:) I think the idea is that you set the requirements for what your program needs to do. Ob […]
Show full quote
386SX wrote:

But then people would not buy new hardware and would stay with the old PIII.

On no, you've exposed my evil plot 😈
I think the idea is that you set the requirements for what your program needs to do. Obviously if you're programming a demanding video game or something, you'll have to start with something modern because your requirements are far, far greater than for word processing. Seriously, look at the system requirements for Office 2016:

Office 2016 Home and Student edition 1 GHz processor. 2GB RAM. 3 GB of available disk space; better to have some extra space for […]
Show full quote

Office 2016 Home and Student edition
1 GHz processor.
2GB RAM.
3 GB of available disk space; better to have some extra space for temp files.
Screen resolution of a minimum 1280 x 800.
Windows 7 SP1 or above operating system; Works best on latest operating system according to Microsoft.

None of that is actually necessary for a word processing suite.

Edit:

ratco, I've had good luck with the Dillo browser for Internet on DOS. I used one of those Orinoco WiFi cards and it actually is pretty smooth on my Pentium MMX/166 laptop.
Another edit: Also, for creating documents in pure DOS Word Perfect 6.1 is da bomb. Pretty much the only usable word processing program that has a wysiwyg interface in DOS.

By the way I think too that we could still today live with a P-III because with a pc today you would do the same thing you did in the 90s, more or (probably) less. I've lost my patience to see that web became the most absurd heavy benchmark for octa core pc and generally are less readable than ever, like some would prefer to look at the smoothness of the animations and not the number of written words.

Reply 88 of 132, by ratco

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keenmaster486 wrote:
On no, you've exposed my evil plot >:) I think the idea is that you set the requirements for what your program needs to do. Ob […]
Show full quote
386SX wrote:

But then people would not buy new hardware and would stay with the old PIII.

On no, you've exposed my evil plot 😈
I think the idea is that you set the requirements for what your program needs to do. Obviously if you're programming a demanding video game or something, you'll have to start with something modern because your requirements are far, far greater than for word processing. Seriously, look at the system requirements for Office 2016:

Office 2016 Home and Student edition 1 GHz processor. 2GB RAM. 3 GB of available disk space; better to have some extra space for […]
Show full quote

Office 2016 Home and Student edition
1 GHz processor.
2GB RAM.
3 GB of available disk space; better to have some extra space for temp files.
Screen resolution of a minimum 1280 x 800.
Windows 7 SP1 or above operating system; Works best on latest operating system according to Microsoft.

None of that is actually necessary for a word processing suite.

Edit:

ratco, I've had good luck with the Dillo browser for Internet on DOS. I used one of those Orinoco WiFi cards and it actually is pretty smooth on my Pentium MMX/166 laptop.
Another edit: Also, for creating documents in pure DOS Word Perfect 6.1 is da bomb. Pretty much the only usable word processing program that has a wysiwyg interface in DOS.

I have tried Dillo but it took a large couple of minutes (almots 5 minutes) before it loaded! I decided to stick with Arachne and Links because those actually load up pretty fast. On the local websites that I tried, Arachne felt slower but it delivered better results in terms of the graphical presentation. Links on the other hand is still being developed today, and has SSL support. So for some tasks I would go with one and for others with the other.
My idea is to use WordPerfect 6.2 in text mode and only switch to graphical mode to see the layout of the document and correct what is necessary. I am of course going for a fast system, so working in text mode is the preferable choice.

I think using older computers is totally fine for people who know this stuff and have the time to actually make it work. For people less literate in computers stuff and who don't have the time, a modern system is more suitable, because companies have turned this industry into a resources hungry business.

Reply 89 of 132, by debs3759

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First computer I built was a 486SX-33, 32 MB RAM, ET4000AX graphics (VLB), 512 MB hard drive. I used it until beyond 2000, it was good for office work (MS Office 4.2), browsing (OK, maybe not so good, with ie whatever was around back them) and programming (Visual Basic 3 and Visual C++ 1.52). As soon as I can afford a decent AT case I'll be replicating that system, I have all the parts). Only thing I won't replicate is the dial-up modem (I went from 2400 baud ==> 9600 baud ==? 38.4 K with that system). It was around 2004 before I had a reasonably up to date system again, now I try to get mainstream or better systems every 2-3 years. I now do most of my work on a Llano based system, with an i7-6700K in my file server (the MB can handle the 4x4TB drives in RAID 6).

See my graphics card database at www.gpuzoo.com
Constantly being worked on. Feel free to message me with any corrections or details of cards you would like me to research and add.

Reply 90 of 132, by keenmaster486

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@ratco: Oh yeah, 6.2, not 6.1, sorry.

I actually haven't tried Links yet, something to place on my bucket list!

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 91 of 132, by gdjacobs

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I'd move Links up on the list. It's extremely handy for working with vintage systems.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 92 of 132, by cj_reha

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Up until 2009 I used an old custom tower built by a (still in business 😲 ) local shop around my area which was upgraded from 98 SE to XP Pro by my dad. It ran suprisingly well, actually.

Anyways, it was a:
Celeron 533 MHz
384 MB RAM
10.2 GB HDD
Onboard VGA/Sound
Linksys 10/100 NIC Card
AOpen 40x CD ROM
Generic HDD Caddy
MicroAdvantage DVD-RW

I still have it stored with my collection, though I've modded it a bit since then. It's only got 256MB of memory now, I replaced the broken 40x CD-ROM with a 16x10x40x CD-RW drive, and replaced the MicroAdvantage DVD-RW drive with a NEC DVD-RW. Oh, and I restored it back to 98SE.

I remember quite frequently getting the "not enough disk space" error from all of the programs my parents and I bloated the computer with 🤣

And then from 2009-2014 I used a crap eMachines tower with Windows Vista and 3 GB of memory. I remember trying to host a Minecraft server my friend and I could play on and getting >2 fps...When I inevitably gave up, and he took the job of hosting, he had two laptops running, one to host the server on and one to play on. Those ran 7 and were a lot better than mine afaik

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Reply 93 of 132, by Kisai

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keenmaster486 wrote:

Yes! Precisely.

I wish software developers' philosophy would go something like this:

"Develop on a Pentium III and make it do everything you wanted it to do, and fast. Only if there's absolutely no way you can make it work without better hardware do you upgrade your development system. Only after you're done may you load it on your i7-6900K with 16GB of RAM and a GTX 1080 and watch it fly."

Until recently I pretty much used hardware until it died.

When I was 8, we had a Tandy 1000 up until 1992 I believe. We had a 286 as well in 1990, various 386/486 MB's until 1995, Then a Cyrix 5x86 (486) around 1995, Then I acquired a Pentium II in 1999.

That Penitum II was kept until the cpu was switched for a Pentium III due to issues with the MMX triggering BSOD's in Windows XP and later making it unusable. Watch this pattern, it repeats itself. I still have this P3 under my desk as it has a SCSI cd-rom and a 5.25" floppy drive.

So after that I had a P4 laptop and a P4 desktop, I kept the P4 laptop from March 2004 to 2014 when it finally died terribly (the boot screen was just rubbish and wouldn't work even after having the dust blown out.) The P4 desktop was given to my sister to take across the country years ago. It's still in my parents house now. That's the only time I had a name-brand PC, and it was a clearance model.

I built a Xeon system in 2007, literately bought all the parts and then towed it home on the rapid transit and then assembled it, realizing I forgot to buy the OS (Vista at the time.) This system was cursed, with every part being swapped out, MB (P35 to P45 and back to P35), PSU (once), Video card (three times), CPU (2.4Ghz X3220 to C2D 1.6Ghz), RAM (4GB to 4GB of a different brand) , even the OS (to Win7), hard drive, eventually stabilizing on a system that was only about 40% of what I had originally built, but unwilling to sink any more money into it. In 2013 I purchased a i7-4770 and a AsRock Z87 board, and new RAM and finally got rid of the cursed motherboard/cpu/ram. Yet the curse of the Intel multimedia extensions still exist in the Haswell part. Like with the P2, use the wrong multimedia program, instant freeze, except it's the Quicksync feature on of the iGPU. I left it enabled to use it, but after switching to Windows 10, any attempt to use Quicksync locks up the PC hard. I'm seriously considering a Socket 2011 system next time around. No more iGPU parts.

So if you talk about what is the longest you've used something, that would be the laptop (10 years, WinXP) Though it was significantly reduced from main to backup around 2008. Technically the chassis to the PC I'm using right now is the only original part left from the original 2007 or so purchase, though the cursed parts are sitting in another chassis in case I need a backup.

I'd recommend, honestly, if you like to tinker, always have two systems of similar generations. It's much easier to swap parts between systems using the same RAM, the end result of those cursed parts is that I had two of everything, but I had to get the C2D CPU off eBay because by the time I got fed up enough with the X3220 failing, it wasn't possible to buy any new ones.

But if you're developing software, No the baseline should be the weakest system that is commercially produced (that would be the Atom parts) The highest end Pentium III has a single-thread passmark of 427, guess what else is worse? Intel Atom x5-Z8300 (386 passmark) which was released in 2015. The problem is that these low-end parts are poison.

People can not tell the difference between a $200 PC and a $3000 PC the same way people can tell the difference between a $50 handbag and a $3000 LVMH bag. The latter is only about craftsmanship/materials, there is no capability difference. But with a PC the only equivalent to that is the difference between a $1500 PC and a $3000 Mac where the former just used plastic everywhere. Everything between the $200 PC and the $1500 PC is the same to joe-average-consumer. So realisticly someone with a PC from 2007 has the expectation that they can run software released today, becase "aren't all pc's the same?" and then Microsoft comes along to push planned obsolescence by making DirectX9, 10, 11, 12 and so only work on the most recent OS.

So now if you want to keep playing games, you have to buy a new PC every 2 years, even though the PC hardware hasn't changed at all. Meanwhile people who are happy with Office 95/97/2000 have no compelling reason to upgrade their office suite on their Pentium III-era system. You can't tell me there has been any significant developments since adding grammar-checking to Word processors in 1993 (Wordperfect 5.2) Most of the changes to word processors involve document exchange (eg internet email, pdf files, etc), not the actual use of the word processor itself. None of these improvements require a new computer, but the increase in screen real estate, large photos and printers did necessitate having systems that can "do everything" rather than "just one thing."

So the system requirements go up, but fundamentally they haven't changed. A photo in 1993 was a 320x240 or 640x480 image and took maybe 1MB of memory to handle, and might be a black-and-white blob when printed out. In 2016 a standard photo can be 16Megapixels, which means it's 64MB uncompressed in RAM, and needs to be rasterized on the computer before the printer can print it, along with all the other compositing. A Pentium 3 didn't typically have more than 128MB of ram. So you'd never really be able to open and print an image from a digital camera today on a Pentium 3, or at least not without excessive swap thrashing.

Reply 94 of 132, by ratco

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keenmaster486 wrote:
On no, you've exposed my evil plot >:) I think the idea is that you set the requirements for what your program needs to do. Ob […]
Show full quote
386SX wrote:

But then people would not buy new hardware and would stay with the old PIII.

On no, you've exposed my evil plot 😈
I think the idea is that you set the requirements for what your program needs to do. Obviously if you're programming a demanding video game or something, you'll have to start with something modern because your requirements are far, far greater than for word processing. Seriously, look at the system requirements for Office 2016:

Office 2016 Home and Student edition 1 GHz processor. 2GB RAM. 3 GB of available disk space; better to have some extra space for […]
Show full quote

Office 2016 Home and Student edition
1 GHz processor.
2GB RAM.
3 GB of available disk space; better to have some extra space for temp files.
Screen resolution of a minimum 1280 x 800.
Windows 7 SP1 or above operating system; Works best on latest operating system according to Microsoft.

None of that is actually necessary for a word processing suite.

Edit:

ratco, I've had good luck with the Dillo browser for Internet on DOS. I used one of those Orinoco WiFi cards and it actually is pretty smooth on my Pentium MMX/166 laptop.
Another edit: Also, for creating documents in pure DOS Word Perfect 6.1 is da bomb. Pretty much the only usable word processing program that has a wysiwyg interface in DOS.

A question, using the Orinoco wifi card, do you notice a difference between connecting to a wifi without password (free and open wifi), or one with password (WEP, or WPA, or WPA2) ? I would assume a difference in performance because of the added load of having to encrypt/decrypt everything between the computer and the router, but I may be mistaken.
You laptop is slightly more powerful than mine anyway, I am using a 133mhz with NO mmx. Still, curious as if it was any different and what speeds did you achieve? Thanks.

Reply 95 of 132, by keenmaster486

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Hmm... I haven't been able to try it with a WEP encrypted network yet. I was just using the university's free wifi system.

I downloaded a large file and, iirc, I was getting ~50 kbps. But I could be wrong on that; I'll try to get it out again sometime this week and do some more tests.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 96 of 132, by senrew

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I have an Orinoco Gold I kept around for my older machines. My 233mmx Toshiba seems to get full speed out of it...whatever full speed is on WEP.

Halcyon: PC Chips M525, P100, 64MB, Millenium 1, Voodoo1, AWE64, DVD, Win95B

Reply 98 of 132, by senrew

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I'm finding myself rethinking my strategy of needing a second system to offload tasks to. My "main" machine was built primarily to play games and run handbrake encodes with, but it unfortunately is the only machine I have (aside from iphone/ipad) that can handle the modern web. I'm forced to keep it on when I'm trying to do actual work on the older G5 since I need to randomly look up things and copy/paste, or watch a video on youtube to understand something more.

It's an obvious example of the modern web dictating the minimum hardware for a general purpose productivity machine. I hate it, but what am I gonna do? I'm tethered to the outside world for the sake of the type of projects I work on.

Halcyon: PC Chips M525, P100, 64MB, Millenium 1, Voodoo1, AWE64, DVD, Win95B

Reply 99 of 132, by brad1982_5

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I've got a Core i7 920 as my main system however I love using my one and only laptop I have. An old Dell D530 with a Core 2 Duo T7250 CPU, boots up ever so quick with an SSD into Windows 8.1 in less then 15 seconds including the BIOS stage. And it's completely silent when the quiet fan is off. Mount it on a docking station which I have, excellent every day computing.