Everything looks good! 😀

I use a FX5900 in my "fast" Windows 98 system but it really depends on the games you use the system for.

Your CT3670 is not an AWE32 but an AWE64 based SB32 PNP, not that it matters at all.

Your rigs look plain excellent! 😁

You certainly seem to have done your research thoroughly 😀

The FX5900 is a card you might take into consideration, it seems more suited for games made before DX9
Your Nvidia P83 128M card seems to be some GF4 indeed (not an MX card, though a GF4MX card isn't terrible when compared to your GF1 and your Vipers).

From first glance your caps seem to look alright, how is stability?

Personally I preferred to use the 2.0a (highest version for the Dutch unofficial 98SE SP iirc, I think the English one was 2.1) as the newer ones were more meant for newer rigs, but that's mostly because for an older rig the 2.x SPs seemed to work fine anyway.

I'm not sure about your Corsair PSU, but there are definitely much worse PSUs around and Seventeam PSUs from that era were well build, but of course old by now.

AMD Thunderbird was a power hungry 5v chip, what's the ratings of your Corsair PSU? I know some PSUs having the same model number actually had some differences, mostly in the number of Molex connectors and such but different revisions of any particular PSU may have different ratings for their 5v and 12v line(s)

Your CPU cooling seems fine, but you could either mount 2 case fans in your Thunderbird rig (especially if you decide to install the FX5900 card) or at the least block the 2 fan grills in the back of the case to improve airflow.

Well done!

Btw, the Diamond V770 ultra has active cooling while the non-ultra TNT2 made by Diamond just had a larger passive heatsink 😀

edit:
About your Voodoos, I'd say a Voodoo 5, but those aren't very cheap. Another option would be Voodoo 2 SLI but those aren't very cheap either and you might end up with a card with problems, but that's kinda the risk with this old stuff 😜
V2 SLI might be the better option as the V5 is way less powerful than the FX5900 and using the V2s you can keep the FX5900 in the AGP slot (dunno if one can use a PCI V5 along with another AGP card, but getting a PCI V5 will make it even more expensive, but it's your money 😜).

Since you mention you don't have lots of room, I'd still want to say it might still be worth considering a 3rd rig, making your ±1GHz rig a Glide rig (You could exchange the Thunderbird for a Coppermine or Tualatin if you want to) and building something like a Northwood rig with the FX5900.

Skyscraper wrote:

Everything looks good! 😀

I use a FX5900 in my "fast" Windows 98 system but it really depends on the games you use the system for.

Your CT3670 is not an AWE32 but an AWE64 based SB32 PNP, not that it matters at all.

Crap, so I'm more or less done? Was looking forward to fiddling around some more with those rigs, the hunt is almost the best part 😁

Ah, I'm not surprised at all I got that wrong, Creative and all their variants and versions 😠 Oh well, if it doesn't matter from an user point of view, I guess I'm good.

Tetrium wrote:

Your rigs look plain excellent! :D […]
Show full quote

Your rigs look plain excellent! 😁

You certainly seem to have done your research thoroughly 😀

The FX5900 is a card you might take into consideration, it seems more suited for games made before DX9
Your Nvidia P83 128M card seems to be some GF4 indeed (not an MX card, though a GF4MX card isn't terrible when compared to your GF1 and your Vipers).

From first glance your caps seem to look alright, how is stability?

Personally I preferred to use the 2.0a (highest version for the Dutch unofficial 98SE SP iirc, I think the English one was 2.1) as the newer ones were more meant for newer rigs, but that's mostly because for an older rig the 2.x SPs seemed to work fine anyway.

I'm not sure about your Corsair PSU, but there are definitely much worse PSUs around and Seventeam PSUs from that era were well build, but of course old by now.

AMD Thunderbird was a power hungry 5v chip, what's the ratings of your Corsair PSU? I know some PSUs having the same model number actually had some differences, mostly in the number of Molex connectors and such but different revisions of any particular PSU may have different ratings for their 5v and 12v line(s)

Your CPU cooling seems fine, but you could either mount 2 case fans in your Thunderbird rig (especially if you decide to install the FX5900 card) or at the least block the 2 fan grills in the back of the case to improve airflow.

Well done!

Btw, the Diamond V770 ultra has active cooling while the non-ultra TNT2 made by Diamond just had a larger passive heatsink 😀

edit:
About your Voodoos, I'd say a Voodoo 5, but those aren't very cheap. Another option would be Voodoo 2 SLI but those aren't very cheap either and you might end up with a card with problems, but that's kinda the risk with this old stuff 😜
V2 SLI might be the better option as the V5 is way less powerful than the FX5900 and using the V2s you can keep the FX5900 in the AGP slot (dunno if one can use a PCI V5 along with another AGP card, but getting a PCI V5 will make it even more expensive, but it's your money 😜).

Since you mention you don't have lots of room, I'd still want to say it might still be worth considering a 3rd rig, making your ±1GHz rig a Glide rig (You could exchange the Thunderbird for a Coppermine or Tualatin if you want to) and building something like a Northwood rig with the FX5900.

I'll definitely read up some more on the FX 5900, since both of you kind of recommends considering it.

Both rigs are rock stable. Haven't checked the caps, but in case of future problems, I'll keep it in mind. Didn't think it was a common problem with old computers from before that industrial espionage scandal - even though electrolytic caps can be considered perishable - as they seldom operate under extreme temperatures. In the worst case I've got everything I need to troubleshoot that kind of problems; ESR meter, oscilloscope, etc 😀

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I do know I checked the ratings before buying the PSU, as modern PSU:s tend to have more power at the 12V rail(s) at the expense of the 5V ones. Think it was something like 20A on the 3.3V rail, 20A on the +5V rail, and 40A on the +12V rail, so there should be margins, especially since I don't have a lot of auxillary stuff connected.

While we're at it, you don't happen to have an idea about how the GF FX 5900 power usage is distributed between the different voltages? The auxillary power connector is a Molex one, so it should get all the current at 3.3V it needs from the AGP port. Or is there an onboard voltage regulator that converts from 5V (or even 12V)? Perhaps it's more or less impossible to estimate the distribution?

I'll keep it in mind. Haven't had any problems with SP3, but I do agree it seems to be geared at implementing features from newer Windows versions in W98. I just installed the main update parts, TweakUI, etc though.

Ah, there are already two case fans. The intake fan above the CPU, and a hidden, slightly smaller exhaust one in front of the hard disk cage. I like keeping my mechanical drives cooled, imagine thats why I've never had any HDD failures. Even my old GXP60 (Deathstar) survived for 3 years before I replaced it. Perhaps a little bit unorthodox to have the air intake in the top, but I don't believe working against the thermals affects the total airflow a lot, and that way it doesn't vacuum the floor 😀 The PSU is on it's own loop due to the somewhat odd case design. Good idea plugging those grills in the back though, I'll prepare sheets for it tonight.

Ah, then it's a TNT2 Ultra. Pretty sure it's got a fan. Not 101% though, it's deep down some box in the cellar 😀

Interesting points on the Voodoo business. If I remember it right, running two Voodoo2 cards wasn't associated with all the problems using multiple GPU:s is today? As mentioned, I do intend to switch to the PIII platform as soon as I get hold of a 440 BX socket 370 mobo 😀

I'll stay on two retro rigs for now though, my guess is that I can get almost anything I would use a Northwood/FX5900 rig for running on a modern computer too, so I don't think I have any real need for one of those just yet. I've also kept an XP install on my secondary main computer, a C2D with a GF 9600.

I think the GF256 is a superior match for a T-bird core as far as period correctness. GF FX 5900 is a better match for a Barton or early Athlon64.

kaputnik wrote:

I'll definitely read up some more on the FX 5900, since both of you kind of recommends considering it. […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote:

Your rigs look plain excellent! :D […]
Show full quote

Your rigs look plain excellent! 😁

You certainly seem to have done your research thoroughly 😀

The FX5900 is a card you might take into consideration, it seems more suited for games made before DX9
Your Nvidia P83 128M card seems to be some GF4 indeed (not an MX card, though a GF4MX card isn't terrible when compared to your GF1 and your Vipers).

From first glance your caps seem to look alright, how is stability?

Personally I preferred to use the 2.0a (highest version for the Dutch unofficial 98SE SP iirc, I think the English one was 2.1) as the newer ones were more meant for newer rigs, but that's mostly because for an older rig the 2.x SPs seemed to work fine anyway.

I'm not sure about your Corsair PSU, but there are definitely much worse PSUs around and Seventeam PSUs from that era were well build, but of course old by now.

AMD Thunderbird was a power hungry 5v chip, what's the ratings of your Corsair PSU? I know some PSUs having the same model number actually had some differences, mostly in the number of Molex connectors and such but different revisions of any particular PSU may have different ratings for their 5v and 12v line(s)

Your CPU cooling seems fine, but you could either mount 2 case fans in your Thunderbird rig (especially if you decide to install the FX5900 card) or at the least block the 2 fan grills in the back of the case to improve airflow.

Well done!

Btw, the Diamond V770 ultra has active cooling while the non-ultra TNT2 made by Diamond just had a larger passive heatsink 😀

edit:
About your Voodoos, I'd say a Voodoo 5, but those aren't very cheap. Another option would be Voodoo 2 SLI but those aren't very cheap either and you might end up with a card with problems, but that's kinda the risk with this old stuff 😜
V2 SLI might be the better option as the V5 is way less powerful than the FX5900 and using the V2s you can keep the FX5900 in the AGP slot (dunno if one can use a PCI V5 along with another AGP card, but getting a PCI V5 will make it even more expensive, but it's your money 😜).

Since you mention you don't have lots of room, I'd still want to say it might still be worth considering a 3rd rig, making your ±1GHz rig a Glide rig (You could exchange the Thunderbird for a Coppermine or Tualatin if you want to) and building something like a Northwood rig with the FX5900.

I'll definitely read up some more on the FX 5900, since both of you kind of recommends considering it.

Both rigs are rock stable. Haven't checked the caps, but in case of future problems, I'll keep it in mind. Didn't think it was a common problem with old computers from before that industrial espionage scandal - even though electrolytic caps can be considered perishable - as they seldom operate under extreme temperatures. In the worst case I've got everything I need to troubleshoot that kind of problems; ESR meter, oscilloscope, etc 😀

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I do know I checked the ratings before buying the PSU, as modern PSU:s tend to have more power at the 12V rail(s) at the expense of the 5V ones. Think it was something like 20A on the 3.3V rail, 20A on the +5V rail, and 40A on the +12V rail, so there should be margins, especially since I don't have a lot of auxillary stuff connected.

While we're at it, you don't happen to have an idea about how the GF FX 5900 power usage is distributed between the different voltages? The auxillary power connector is a Molex one, so it should get all the current at 3.3V it needs from the AGP port. Or is there an onboard voltage regulator that converts from 5V (or even 12V)? Perhaps it's more or less impossible to estimate the distribution?

According to this page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/dis … nv-power_6.html which contains this image http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?src=/im … table-b.gif&1=1 most of the power comes from the 12v line, which is an advantage.

But what PSUs are concerned, there are more knowledgeable folks here on Vogons who can give you a more accurate answer 😀

20A on the 5v rail isn't very much though, especially for a modern PSU (the old ones were better suited at providing stable power to systems that are mostly 5v ones). Socket A is theoretically the most problematic with this issue, Pentium IIIs are much less problematic as these CPUs have maybe only half the power consumption of almost any Socket A Athlon (XP).

Do you happen to have any other PSUs laying around? Personally I like the older FSP models a lot, especially those with 30A on the 5v line (watch out for old/bad caps though 🤣).

I'll keep it in mind. Haven't had any problems with SP3, but I do agree it seems to be geared at implementing features from newe […]
Show full quote

I'll keep it in mind. Haven't had any problems with SP3, but I do agree it seems to be geared at implementing features from newer Windows versions in W98. I just installed the main update parts, TweakUI, etc though.

Ah, there are already two case fans. The intake fan above the CPU, and a hidden, slightly smaller exhaust one in front of the hard disk cage. I like keeping my mechanical drives cooled, imagine thats why I've never had any HDD failures. Even my old GXP60 (Deathstar) survived for 3 years before I replaced it. Perhaps a little bit unorthodox to have the air intake in the top, but I don't believe working against the thermals affects the total airflow a lot, and that way it doesn't vacuum the floor 😀 The PSU is on it's own loop due to the somewhat odd case design. Good idea plugging those grills in the back though, I'll prepare sheets for it tonight.

Ah, then it's a TNT2 Ultra. Pretty sure it's got a fan. Not 101% though, it's deep down some box in the cellar 😀

Interesting points on the Voodoo business. If I remember it right, running two Voodoo2 cards wasn't associated with all the problems using multiple GPU:s is today? As mentioned, I do intend to switch to the PIII platform as soon as I get hold of a 440 BX socket 370 mobo 😀

I'll stay on two retro rigs for now though, my guess is that I can get almost anything I would use a Northwood/FX5900 rig for running on a modern computer too, so I don't think I have any real need for one of those just yet. I've also kept an XP install on my secondary main computer, a C2D with a GF 9600.

The suggestion with the 2 extra case fans was more to prevent a circulation short where the open holes in the back of your case draw in air from the back of your rig, instead of from the front where it's supposed to be coming from.
You could also just tape em shut or something, it's worth a try 😜

440BX s370 boards weren't very common though. i815 boards were much more common and those are pretty good. Only real issue that's particular to i815 is the 512MB RAM limit (which VIA and i440BX don't have).
BX has the disadvantage of only working with 256MB SDRAM modules using 16 chips though (not counting ECC modules but why use those?), the 256MB modules with 8 chips typically only get half their memory recognized. Another disadvantage is it's max FSB of 100MHz, though it supposedly is easy to overclock, but then AGP will have to be overclocked as well as it doesn't have the 1:4 AGP divider.

It's tru that FX5900 is more suited for something faster than P3 or Thunderbird. A64 is a good match for FX5900, but Northwood should be cheaper and easier to setup (partly because of fewer issues with SATA2 drives (I'm looking at you, VIA)) and it's a very stable platform.

I loved my Deathstar! 😁 ...until it decided to die on me 🤣!

gdjacobs wrote:

I think the GF256 is a superior match for a T-bird core as far as period correctness. GF FX 5900 is a better match for a Barton or early Athlon64.

Ah, period correctness is not my first priority, I'm not that perverted - yet at least 😉 Mostly caring about the purely technical aspects of the different cards, like compatibility and performance. If the parts happens to match periodwise, it's a bonus.

Tetrium wrote:

According to this page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/dis … nv-power_6.html which contains this image http://www.xbit […]
Show full quote

According to this page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/dis … nv-power_6.html which contains this image http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?src=/im … table-b.gif&1=1 most of the power comes from the 12v line, which is an advantage.

But what PSUs are concerned, there are more knowledgeable folks here on Vogons who can give you a more accurate answer 😀

20A on the 5v rail isn't very much though, especially for a modern PSU (the old ones were better suited at providing stable power to systems that are mostly 5v ones). Socket A is theoretically the most problematic with this issue, Pentium IIIs are much less problematic as these CPUs have maybe only half the power consumption of almost any Socket A Athlon (XP).

Do you happen to have any other PSUs laying around? Personally I like the older FSP models a lot, especially those with 30A on the 5v line (watch out for old/bad caps though 🤣).

Ah, nice find! It never occurred to me to google for that kind of - to say the least - obscure detail information 😁

Might have some spare PSU, I'll have a look around in my stashes. If I find something that can supply more than 20A on the 5V rail, I'll see if I have to recap it, and then swap it. Even though I believe 20A is enough, especially when I switch to a PIII in an uncertain future, I can imagine it's never a bad idea to use a PSU balanced for the specific power outtake if possible.

Tetrium wrote:

The suggestion with the 2 extra case fans was more to prevent a circulation short where the open holes in the back of your case […]
Show full quote

The suggestion with the 2 extra case fans was more to prevent a circulation short where the open holes in the back of your case draw in air from the back of your rig, instead of from the front where it's supposed to be coming from.
You could also just tape em shut or something, it's worth a try 😜

440BX s370 boards weren't very common though. i815 boards were much more common and those are pretty good. Only real issue that's particular to i815 is the 512MB RAM limit (which VIA nor i440BX don't have).
BX has the disadvantage of only working with 256MB SDRAM modules using 16 chips though (not counting ECC modules but why use those?), the 256MB modules with 8 chips typically only get half their memory recognized. Another disadvantage is it's max FSB of 100MHz, though it supposedly is easy to overclock, but then AGP will have to be overclocked as well as it doesn't have the 1:4 AGP divider.

It's tru that FX5900 is more suited for something faster than P3 or Thunderbird. A64 is a good match for FX5900, but Northwood should be cheaper and easier to setup (partly because of fewer issues with SATA2 drives (I'm looking at you, VIA)) and it's a very stable platform.

I loved my Deathstar! 😁 ...until it decided to die on me 🤣!

Found a piece of frosted polycarbonate plastic sheet, will be easy enough to make blinds for those grills of. Then I'll just monitor the temps and see if there's any improvement. Still haven't seen the CPU go above 45 deg C though, so the cooling should be sufficient as it is, but why not optimize if you can? At least it's a way to kill an hour or so. I'm a marine engineer working on a 2-3 system, got way too much spare time 😁

Well, I really want that ISA port for the sound card - remember, it's supposed to do DOS games - so I'll keep hunting for a 440BX board. The hardware RAM boundary isn't really a problem either, keeping it at 512MB to avoid problems with W98, and I really don't think anything I'd run on that machine would do better with more RAM than that anyways 😀

The 1 GHZ/133MHz FSB Coppermine I already got would still run at ~750 MHz on 100 MHz FSB, not too shabby. If I get hold of a Tualatin compatible mobo, I'd get ~850 MHz from one of my 1133 MHz Tua's, until I get hold of a 1GHz/100MHz FSB Coppermine 😀

Might have my old Asus P4P800 Deluxe with a 2.8 GHz Northwood left somewhere, if I feel like building a Northwood box at some point. Otherwise I think the P5B Deluxe in my secondary computer (the C2D one) also accepts the late socket 775 P4:s, and those are dirt cheap here. Might get one while they still are, just in case.

Hehe, yeah, those drives would have been great, if it weren't for their tendency to die. If I remember it right, they were way ahead of the competition performance wise.

kaputnik wrote:

Ah, period correctness is not my first priority, I'm not that perverted - yet at least ;) Mostly caring about the purely technic […]
Show full quote

gdjacobs wrote:

I think the GF256 is a superior match for a T-bird core as far as period correctness. GF FX 5900 is a better match for a Barton or early Athlon64.

Ah, period correctness is not my first priority, I'm not that perverted - yet at least 😉 Mostly caring about the purely technical aspects of the different cards, like compatibility and performance. If the parts happens to match periodwise, it's a bonus.

Tetrium wrote:

According to this page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/dis … nv-power_6.html which contains this image http://www.xbit […]
Show full quote

According to this page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/dis … nv-power_6.html which contains this image http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?src=/im … table-b.gif&1=1 most of the power comes from the 12v line, which is an advantage.

But what PSUs are concerned, there are more knowledgeable folks here on Vogons who can give you a more accurate answer 😀

20A on the 5v rail isn't very much though, especially for a modern PSU (the old ones were better suited at providing stable power to systems that are mostly 5v ones). Socket A is theoretically the most problematic with this issue, Pentium IIIs are much less problematic as these CPUs have maybe only half the power consumption of almost any Socket A Athlon (XP).

Do you happen to have any other PSUs laying around? Personally I like the older FSP models a lot, especially those with 30A on the 5v line (watch out for old/bad caps though 🤣).

Ah, nice find! It never occurred to me to google for that kind of - to say the least - obscure detail information 😁

Might have some spare PSU, I'll have a look around in my stashes. If I find something that can supply more than 20A on the 5V rail, I'll see if I have to recap it, and then swap it. Even though I believe 20A is enough, especially when I switch to a PIII in an uncertain future, I can imagine it's never a bad idea to use a PSU balanced for the specific power outtake if possible.

Tetrium wrote:

The suggestion with the 2 extra case fans was more to prevent a circulation short where the open holes in the back of your case […]
Show full quote

The suggestion with the 2 extra case fans was more to prevent a circulation short where the open holes in the back of your case draw in air from the back of your rig, instead of from the front where it's supposed to be coming from.
You could also just tape em shut or something, it's worth a try 😜

440BX s370 boards weren't very common though. i815 boards were much more common and those are pretty good. Only real issue that's particular to i815 is the 512MB RAM limit (which VIA nor i440BX don't have).
BX has the disadvantage of only working with 256MB SDRAM modules using 16 chips though (not counting ECC modules but why use those?), the 256MB modules with 8 chips typically only get half their memory recognized. Another disadvantage is it's max FSB of 100MHz, though it supposedly is easy to overclock, but then AGP will have to be overclocked as well as it doesn't have the 1:4 AGP divider.

It's tru that FX5900 is more suited for something faster than P3 or Thunderbird. A64 is a good match for FX5900, but Northwood should be cheaper and easier to setup (partly because of fewer issues with SATA2 drives (I'm looking at you, VIA)) and it's a very stable platform.

I loved my Deathstar! 😁 ...until it decided to die on me 🤣!

Found a piece of frosted polycarbonate plastic sheet, will be easy enough to make blinds for those grills of. Then I'll just monitor the temps and see if there's any improvement. Still haven't seen the CPU go above 45 deg C though, so the cooling should be sufficient as it is, but why not optimize if you can? At least it's a way to kill an hour or so. I'm a marine engineer working on a 2-3 system, got way too much spare time 😁

Well, I really want that ISA port for the sound card - remember, it's supposed to do DOS games - so I'll keep hunting for a 440BX board. The hardware RAM boundary isn't really a problem either, keeping it at 512MB to avoid problems with W98, and I really don't think anything I'd run on that machine would do better with more RAM than that anyways 😀

The 1 GHZ/133MHz FSB Coppermine I already got would still run at ~750 MHz on 100 MHz FSB, not too shabby. If I get hold of a Tualatin compatible mobo, I'd get ~850 MHz from one of my 1133 MHz Tua's, until I get hold of a 1GHz/100MHz FSB Coppermine 😀

Might have my old Asus P4P800 Deluxe with a 2.8 GHz Northwood left somewhere, if I feel like building a Northwood box at some point. Otherwise I think the P5B Deluxe in my secondary computer (the C2D one) also accepts the late socket 775 P4:s, and those are dirt cheap here. Might get one while they still are, just in case.

Hehe, yeah, those drives would have been great, if it weren't for their tendency to die. If I remember it right, they were way ahead of the competition performance wise.

I forgot about the ISA part, woops 🤣
Yup, that would exclude i815 for obvious reasons 😁

The CPU might not need extra cooling but all that warm air is now going through your 20A 5v PSU and the cooler the air is that the PSU is taking in, the better it is for the PSU itself. It's a minor detail, but it helps. This may become more of an issue if you decide to use a hotter graphics card and it may run stable for a (long) while, but imo theres no need to not do it. Fans are cheap and can be made to run silently.

If you do decide to add 1 or 2 extra case fans in the back, I could recommend to cut out the fan openings in the back of the case completely and use those more airflow-friendly fan grills made out of that metal wire stuff, this helps both airflow and lowers noise at the same time.

Just be careful to rid the case of any metal particles or metal dust afterwards as electronics typically won't be liking it.

That particular ASUS board seems to be pretty popular. They were always offered for quite a bit of money and never got to that "throw-away price"-stage that many of the s754 and s939 boards ran into a few years ago. I only ever used an Intel made one and it seemed to run excellently, except for the harddrive which I figured out after I had finished the build had a harddrive fitness of 0% or something, and as I needed some of it's parts I dismantled it not long afterwards.

I personally don't care much for period correctness. To me that's just an artificial self-inflicted limitation, but there's no denying that it is better for parts that end up in a rig together, to be of at least somewhat the same age (though it's mostly a compatibility issue to me).

Tetrium wrote:

I forgot about the ISA part, woops lol Yup, that would exclude i815 for obvious reasons :D […]
Show full quote

kaputnik wrote:

Ah, period correctness is not my first priority, I'm not that perverted - yet at least ;) Mostly caring about the purely technic […]
Show full quote

gdjacobs wrote:

I think the GF256 is a superior match for a T-bird core as far as period correctness. GF FX 5900 is a better match for a Barton or early Athlon64.

Ah, period correctness is not my first priority, I'm not that perverted - yet at least 😉 Mostly caring about the purely technical aspects of the different cards, like compatibility and performance. If the parts happens to match periodwise, it's a bonus.

Tetrium wrote:

According to this page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/dis … nv-power_6.html which contains this image http://www.xbit […]
Show full quote

According to this page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/dis … nv-power_6.html which contains this image http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?src=/im … table-b.gif&1=1 most of the power comes from the 12v line, which is an advantage.

But what PSUs are concerned, there are more knowledgeable folks here on Vogons who can give you a more accurate answer 😀

20A on the 5v rail isn't very much though, especially for a modern PSU (the old ones were better suited at providing stable power to systems that are mostly 5v ones). Socket A is theoretically the most problematic with this issue, Pentium IIIs are much less problematic as these CPUs have maybe only half the power consumption of almost any Socket A Athlon (XP).

Do you happen to have any other PSUs laying around? Personally I like the older FSP models a lot, especially those with 30A on the 5v line (watch out for old/bad caps though 🤣).

Ah, nice find! It never occurred to me to google for that kind of - to say the least - obscure detail information 😁

Might have some spare PSU, I'll have a look around in my stashes. If I find something that can supply more than 20A on the 5V rail, I'll see if I have to recap it, and then swap it. Even though I believe 20A is enough, especially when I switch to a PIII in an uncertain future, I can imagine it's never a bad idea to use a PSU balanced for the specific power outtake if possible.

Tetrium wrote:

The suggestion with the 2 extra case fans was more to prevent a circulation short where the open holes in the back of your case […]
Show full quote

The suggestion with the 2 extra case fans was more to prevent a circulation short where the open holes in the back of your case draw in air from the back of your rig, instead of from the front where it's supposed to be coming from.
You could also just tape em shut or something, it's worth a try 😜

440BX s370 boards weren't very common though. i815 boards were much more common and those are pretty good. Only real issue that's particular to i815 is the 512MB RAM limit (which VIA nor i440BX don't have).
BX has the disadvantage of only working with 256MB SDRAM modules using 16 chips though (not counting ECC modules but why use those?), the 256MB modules with 8 chips typically only get half their memory recognized. Another disadvantage is it's max FSB of 100MHz, though it supposedly is easy to overclock, but then AGP will have to be overclocked as well as it doesn't have the 1:4 AGP divider.

It's tru that FX5900 is more suited for something faster than P3 or Thunderbird. A64 is a good match for FX5900, but Northwood should be cheaper and easier to setup (partly because of fewer issues with SATA2 drives (I'm looking at you, VIA)) and it's a very stable platform.

I loved my Deathstar! 😁 ...until it decided to die on me 🤣!

Found a piece of frosted polycarbonate plastic sheet, will be easy enough to make blinds for those grills of. Then I'll just monitor the temps and see if there's any improvement. Still haven't seen the CPU go above 45 deg C though, so the cooling should be sufficient as it is, but why not optimize if you can? At least it's a way to kill an hour or so. I'm a marine engineer working on a 2-3 system, got way too much spare time 😁

Well, I really want that ISA port for the sound card - remember, it's supposed to do DOS games - so I'll keep hunting for a 440BX board. The hardware RAM boundary isn't really a problem either, keeping it at 512MB to avoid problems with W98, and I really don't think anything I'd run on that machine would do better with more RAM than that anyways 😀

The 1 GHZ/133MHz FSB Coppermine I already got would still run at ~750 MHz on 100 MHz FSB, not too shabby. If I get hold of a Tualatin compatible mobo, I'd get ~850 MHz from one of my 1133 MHz Tua's, until I get hold of a 1GHz/100MHz FSB Coppermine 😀

Might have my old Asus P4P800 Deluxe with a 2.8 GHz Northwood left somewhere, if I feel like building a Northwood box at some point. Otherwise I think the P5B Deluxe in my secondary computer (the C2D one) also accepts the late socket 775 P4:s, and those are dirt cheap here. Might get one while they still are, just in case.

Hehe, yeah, those drives would have been great, if it weren't for their tendency to die. If I remember it right, they were way ahead of the competition performance wise.

I forgot about the ISA part, woops 🤣
Yup, that would exclude i815 for obvious reasons 😁

The CPU might not need extra cooling but all that warm air is now going through your 20A 5v PSU and the cooler the air is that the PSU is taking in, the better it is for the PSU itself. It's a minor detail, but it helps. This may become more of an issue if you decide to use a hotter graphics card and it may run stable for a (long) while, but imo theres no need to not do it. Fans are cheap and can be made to run silently.

If you do decide to add 1 or 2 extra case fans in the back, I could recommend to cut out the fan openings in the back of the case completely and use those more airflow-friendly fan grills made out of that metal wire stuff, this helps both airflow and lowers noise at the same time.

Just be careful to rid the case of any metal particles or metal dust afterwards as electronics typically won't be liking it.

That particular ASUS board seems to be pretty popular. They were always offered for quite a bit of money and never got to that "throw-away price"-stage that many of the s754 and s939 boards ran into a few years ago. I only ever used an Intel made one and it seemed to run excellently, except for the harddrive which I figured out after I had finished the build had a harddrive fitness of 0% or something, and as I needed some of it's parts I dismantled it not long afterwards.

I personally don't care much for period correctness. To me that's just an artificial self-inflicted limitation, but there's no denying that it is better for parts that end up in a rig together, to be of at least somewhat the same age (though it's mostly a compatibility issue to me).

Oh, but it's not 😀 As I mentioned before, the PSU is on it's own air loop, due to the CM Elite 361's somewhat unorthodox design. The PSU takes in air through a grill in the side cover, and exhausts it behind the front cover. That' s also one of the reasons that I reversed the top fan to use it as an intake fan, and put an exhaust fan in front of the hard disk cage - it was the only way I could think of to direct air flow past the hard disk, without taking in the hot air from the PSU behind the front cover.

Ah, yeah, I have a recollection of reading a test of the flow resistance over different types of fan grills at some time, and the results were remarkably different. If I remember it right, those perforated sheet metal variants ate up like half the airflow compared to using no grill at all. The wire ones were considerably better. Oh, and I'd use a nibbler for that job, there would be no metal dust to worry about 😀

It was a great board! Not that I have the best material to go on, it was the only socket 478 board I ever had, but that might be some kind of reference in it self. Can't have been too shabby if I never felt any desire to get something else 😀

Out of curiosity though, what does a P4 do better than just about anything that came after it? I just can't see why those boards never came to giveaway prices. The only thing I can think of the Netburst architecture has going for it are the high clocks. Might be useful for applications where that's the only thing that counts, if there are any, but otherwise, why pick a P4 when you can get a C2D rig for next to nothing? Or do I just have a few things left to learn?

kaputnik wrote:

Out of curiosity though, what does a P4 do better than just about anything that came after it?

Heat up your room 😀

But seriously, I don't really know.

I just accept Netburst for what it is and I used to avoid them like the plague...nowdays I still do, except for Northwoods and maybe the s423 ones, though the latter is more out of curiosity. I kinda see s423 vs s478 like I see s4 vs s5/s7 😀

Maybe an additional PCI sound card for Windows? (You mentioned Windows, and the Geforce is not necessary for DOS.) Several options here, from SB Live, Aureal Vortex(2), ...
Maybe some kind of 3D acceleration for the compatible rig? Maybe a Voodoo1?

idspispopd wrote:

Maybe an additional PCI sound card for Windows? (You mentioned Windows, and the Geforce is not necessary for DOS.) Several options here, from SB Live, Aureal Vortex(2), ...
Maybe some kind of 3D acceleration for the compatible rig? Maybe a Voodoo1?

Hm, just can't see the point in adding another sound card. The Awe64 seems to work perfectly in Windows too, and I only got a 2.1 audio system for those computers anyways, so I have no use of the additional sound channels those cards offer. I do have an SB Live or two, and maybe even an Audigy 2, lying around. If there are any real benefits in adding another card, I'll consider it.

Might have kept my old Voodoo 1 card, however, if I have, I'll probably have to replace the VGA port before using it. Ex GF managed to trip on the cable and damage the connector back in the days. Good thing in retrospect though, would never have bought the Voodoo2 card otherwise. Also, I'll have to get another jumper cable, guess those are quite rare today? So, considering the work needed, is there any real point in adding a Voodoo1 card to that rig, besides completeness reasons? Are there any games worth playing that won't run on a Voodoo2 card?

One of the features that PCI SoundBlaster cards have over the AWE64 is EAX. That might be worth adding a Live! or Audigy card.

And yes, the passthrough cable on its own can be hard to get hold of. However you can just use any old VGA extension cable if you can't find one.

Been playing around some with the alternative graphics cards, cleaning the heatsinks, etc. Sadly, the FX5900 isn't in the best shape. Seems like the fan bearing lubricant has seeped out during the years, and made the plastic brittle. A few of the little arms with holes for screwing the fan down has cracked. There's really nothing to do besides some really dirty fix like glueing the fans down, or replacing them completely. I really don't want to use the card with fans that can come loose any minute...

The GF4 however, is in mint condition. Turned out it was a Ti4600, which is really nice. Installed it in the monster rig, and it seems to have a few pros over the GF256. Haven't tested it extensively yet, but it seems to work well enough with any DOS game I throw at it, and it gets me great frame rates in Quake 2. Not that the GF256 was bad, but it's wonderful to be constantly above 60 FPS in the monitor's native resolution, 1280x1024. Also, it's nice to be able to to use newer versions of the Detonator driver. Using 45.23's, seems to be recommended by many for this GPU. As this card has no auxillary power connector, and the heatsink is considerably smaller than that of the FX5900, I also assume it's a lot less power hungry, which of course is a big pro.

dexter311 wrote:

One of the features that PCI SoundBlaster cards have over the AWE64 is EAX. That might be worth adding a Live! or Audigy card.

And yes, the passthrough cable on its own can be hard to get hold of. However you can just use any old VGA extension cable if you can't find one.

Ah, so they have the same wiring, good to know for testing purposes. If I decide to repair and use the Voodoo1 card, I'll just solder together a shorter passthrough cable though, if it's impossible to get hold of a ready made one 😀

PCI sound cards should have lower CPU overhead than ISA sound cards, also they should be able to mix multiple audio streams in hardware.
Regarding EAX or other 3D stuff, you should also be able to hear 3D sounds over headphones.
You might also be able to load better/bigger MIDI sound fonts in Windows than with the AWE32.
Also, why not? 😀

Regarding Voodoo1: There is a relevant thread here: Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix
There also may be Glide (or other 3D games) which would run to fast on your monster rig so it would be useful to have some kind of 3D in the compatible machine.

idspispopd wrote:

PCI sound cards should have lower CPU overhead than ISA sound cards, also they should be able to mix multiple audio streams in h […]
Show full quote

PCI sound cards should have lower CPU overhead than ISA sound cards, also they should be able to mix multiple audio streams in hardware.
Regarding EAX or other 3D stuff, you should also be able to hear 3D sounds over headphones.
You might also be able to load better/bigger MIDI sound fonts in Windows than with the AWE32.
Also, why not? 😀

Regarding Voodoo1: There is a relevant thread here: Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix
There also may be Glide (or other 3D games) which would run to fast on your monster rig so it would be useful to have some kind of 3D in the compatible machine.

If there's no risk for hardware conflicts or other drawbacks, and W98SE generally handles multiple sound cards well, it's hard to argue - yeah, why not? It might be a bit inconvenient to move the audio plug every time I want to use the other sound card, but then again, it's easy enough to solder together some kind of switch box if it becomes annoying.

Guess you're right on the second point too, it's not like it'll hurt to have it installed at least. Also, it'll be a nice little project bringing it back to working order and make a passthrough cable. I'll order the needed DE-15 connectors and some 3.5mm jacks for an audio switch box straight away 😀

kaputnik wrote:

It might be a bit inconvenient to move the audio plug every time I want to use the other sound card, but then again, it's easy enough to solder together some kind of switch box if it becomes annoying.

Just use an off-the-shelf splitter cable and adjust the volumes of the each card in software. Or, if your speakers have multiple inputs, just use another input.

I'd avoid splitters. A little passive mixer is a lot better/safer and it might be even easier to make than a switchbox. Or, if your ISA sound card has nice quality output, just plug a cable from the PCI card's Line Out to the ISA card's Line In.

alexanrs wrote:

I'd avoid splitters. A little passive mixer is a lot better/safer and it might be even easier to make than a switchbox. Or, if your ISA sound card has nice quality output, just plug a cable from the PCI card's Line Out to the ISA card's Line In.

Yeah, probably not the best idea to connect two active sources directly to eachother, I wouldn't dare to do it at least. The passive mixer idea wasn't bad at all though! A switchless solution is a lot more convenient aswell. No digging around after that switch, which of course would be hidden away behind everything as a result of the effort to keep the cables as short as possible 😀

Edit: I know next to nothing about audio stuff. Would it be correct to assume that the load impedance is somewhere around 10 kOhm when I dimension the resistors?

AFAIK the lower the resistance for the mixer, the less sensitive to noise it will be, but the load on the outputs will be lower. I used 10kOhm resistors in my mixer, which is a bit noisier than I'd like but useable, but I've seen projects around the internet using 1kOhm resistors. Also, if all your cards have amplified outputs, they can probably handle lower impedances better. But for two cards on the same computer running a P2-P2 cable from the PCI card's line out to the ISA's line in (and unmuting the line in in the card's mixer) works well.