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Celeron, the good bad and ugly.

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First post, by BSA Starfire

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Hi folks,

I've been wondering about Intel's budget range of CPU's the Celeron over the last few days and the many, many different types of this CPU over the years. Of course it was always a cut down version of a more powerful intel architecture, but at least one version, the "Mendocino" was perhaps better than it's original sibling, having a smaller but core speed cache.
I have a small amount of experience with the Celeron CPU's, I have never owned or used a "covington" but I know of it by reputation,is it as awful as reviews of the time indicated?
The only "Mendocino" I have is a socket 370 466MHz part, that is installed in a ASUS CUSL2 (intel 815) and performs very well indeed, much better than the PII 450 on BX I had years ago. I do have a few "Coppermine" celly's, 600MHz & 1000Mhz, but they seem to be really outclassed by a "real" PIII coppermine(however I suspect they out gun the PII & PIII "kalmath" CPU's).
The "Tualatin" is an core I have not used at all, I do have a 1200 MHz Celeron "tualatin" but no board to use it in. I expect this is perhaps as good as a PIII "coppermine" would be had they worked at that frequency?
OK onto the "netburst" Celerons, as far as I know the "willamette" with 128K cache was a dreadful chip, the "northwood" 128 was a great overclocker but woefully slow at stock speed and easily beaten by the cheaper Athlon XP.
The Celeron D was a big improvement, 256K cache and 533 FSB brought it into a usable CPU(I still use a skt 478 Celeron D 2.4GHz as a media player system), heat was always the problem with "prescott" however, it does run cooler that prescott P4 however. The final "netburst" Celeron was the "cedarmill", this in it's later steppings was a fast and cool running CPU with a 512K cache, but by then core2 was on the market...........
As far as I am aware that was the last gasp for "netburst", all Intel CPU's were based on the CORE2 from then on, Celeron's first foray here was a single core version of 800 FSB core 2's, I imagine this chip would have been a good buy at the time(not much multi threaded software, and cool running), Later came dual core variants also on 800 FSB with 512K cache(I use a E1400 in my "micro" server,it's a great little chip and runs really cool).
Beyond this point I know nothing about the newer Celerons but imagine they follow a similar pattern to the CORE2 derived versions.

Be really interested to hear who uses the Celeron today(considering it is probably no cheaper than "full fat" versions), thoughts on the various CPU cores, and why you'd use a vintage Celeron today? Is it nostalgia, overclocking ability, a real advantage over the more expensive"full fat" versions?

Best regards,
Chris

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Reply 1 of 31, by clueless1

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Focus on the top two entries in this spreadsheet: Is there a benchmark list showing results with L1 disabled?
Mendocino 333 vs Deschutes 333. At full speed it's very close but the P II has a slight edge in most of the results, but when you disable L1, the Celeron is slightly faster across the board.

I have some experience with an Ivy Bridge Celeron--the 2.6Ghz G1610. It is very impressive for the price. It is about on par with a C2D E8400 (3Ghz) and uses very low power. The entire system (8GB RAM, 250GB 7200RPM HDD, two NICs, on-chip Intel graphics) averages about 35W. It's the base for a linux firewall.

I've also got a 2.2Ghz E1500 that is pretty snappy (about equal to an E6320).

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Reply 2 of 31, by dr.zeissler

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Just simply because I have no other choice 😀 My board has 66Mhz with Slot1. The maximum is 533 with Slot/370 Adapter, but I choose the fastest Slot-Celeron because of more cooling choices. But I have to admit, that the Celeron-433 is far better then the PII-333 and also much better then the K6-III+ when it comes to 3dfx-3d without 3dnow. With 3dnow the K6-III+ is competetive.

Retro-Gamer 😀 ...on different machines

Reply 3 of 31, by kanecvr

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dr.zeissler wrote:

Just simply because I have no other choice 😀 My board has 66Mhz with Slot1. The maximum is 533 with Slot/370 Adapter, but I choose the fastest Slot-Celeron because of more cooling choices. But I have to admit, that the Celeron-433 is far better then the PII-333 and also much better then the K6-III+ when it comes to 3dfx-3d without 3dnow. With 3dnow the K6-III+ is competetive.

No it's not. w/o 3dnow the K6-3 keeps up (especially in 3dfx stuff). With 3dnow the K6-3 pulls ahead by a wide margin. In 3dmark99 (witch uses 3dnow) the k6-3 @550mhz scores twice as much as a 500MHz PII (overclocked 333MHz PII) - here are some benches - 500MHz P II v.s. 500MHz P III v.s. 550MHz K6-III+ benchmarks! - the GLQuake results are compromised because of bad drivers (pretty sure vsync was on even tough I turned it off), but Quake 2 (w/o 3dnow patch) is quite indicative of the CPU's performance. In 3DM99 the PIII and K6 pull ahead because they have SSE and 3Dnow! witch nearly doubles the score.

I'll redo the benchmarks when I find some more time - this time with all CPUs running at 500Mhz and a wider array of software. I'll also run Quake 2 with and w/o 3dnow.

Reply 4 of 31, by shamino

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I have a Tualatin Celeron 1.2GHz/100/256KB which I found will run reliably at 1.6GHz/133 on a board with 694T chipset.
I wonder how that would compare to a P3-S 1.4GHz/133/512KB CPU on the same chipset when running games. The P3 is 12.5% slower but has more cache.
I have a 1.4 and thought it might be interesting to compare, but unfortunately it is in a different machine where it can't be easily removed and has a heatsink permanently epoxied to it.

Reply 6 of 31, by dr.zeissler

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kanecvr wrote:
dr.zeissler wrote:

Just simply because I have no other choice 😀 My board has 66Mhz with Slot1. The maximum is 533 with Slot/370 Adapter, but I choose the fastest Slot-Celeron because of more cooling choices. But I have to admit, that the Celeron-433 is far better then the PII-333 and also much better then the K6-III+ when it comes to 3dfx-3d without 3dnow. With 3dnow the K6-III+ is competetive.

No it's not. w/o 3dnow the K6-3 keeps up (especially in 3dfx stuff). With 3dnow the K6-3 pulls ahead by a wide margin. In 3dmark99 (witch uses 3dnow) the k6-3 @550mhz scores twice as much as a 500MHz PII (overclocked 333MHz PII) - here are some benches - 500MHz P II v.s. 500MHz P III v.s. 550MHz K6-III+ benchmarks! - the GLQuake results are compromised because of bad drivers (pretty sure vsync was on even tough I turned it off), but Quake 2 (w/o 3dnow patch) is quite indicative of the CPU's performance. In 3DM99 the PIII and K6 pull ahead because they have SSE and 3Dnow! witch nearly doubles the score.

I'll redo the benchmarks when I find some more time - this time with all CPUs running at 500Mhz and a wider array of software. I'll also run Quake 2 with and w/o 3dnow.

No, sorry, 3DM99 is not representative (for me). The celeron 433 is far better in almost every game compared to the K6-III+ @same FSB (which means 6x66!=400)
I have not testet it with FSB100! The K6-III+ has issues in almost every board with temperatures. When clocking higher the problem get much higher! No stable use for me!

Retro-Gamer 😀 ...on different machines

Reply 7 of 31, by noshutdown

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to you guys talking on k6-3+:
3dnow couldn't save k6-3+'s performance, its 3dfx that saved it.
3dfx are the only video cards that can work well with k6 series, because they were designed to tolerate k6s' slower fpu and fsb bandwidth.
on the other hand, nv and ati's designs always kept making heavy use of fpu and fsb bandwidth in mind, so they worked well with p6 and k7 cpus but never with k6s, whether 3dnow is present or not.
3dnow did give it a slight boost over the k6 to pull away from p55c though, but never a match for the celeronA when using nvidia or ati cards.

Reply 8 of 31, by noshutdown

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dr.zeissler wrote:

No, sorry, 3DM99 is not representative (for me). The celeron 433 is far better in almost every game compared to the K6-III+ @same FSB (which means 6x66!=400)
I have not testet it with FSB100! The K6-III+ has issues in almost every board with temperatures. When clocking higher the problem get much higher! No stable use for me!

take a look at my quick match results:
celeron450A vs k6-3+550

Last edited by noshutdown on 2016-04-01, 01:32. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 9 of 31, by noshutdown

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my ranking of celeron versions, from best to worst.
the ranking is based on following factors:
1. general performance level for its days.
2. performance loss over the full version, the more the worse.
3. overall performance of the microarchitecture.
4. overclockability.

ranking:
1. mendocino 128kb
2. tualatin 256kb
3. wolfdale-1mb dual core
4. allendale-512kb dual core
5. cedar mill 512kb
6. coppermine 128kb
7. conroe-l 512kb single core
8. prescott 256kb
9. northwood 128kb
10. covington 0kb
11. willamette 128kb

Reply 10 of 31, by stamasd

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I have recreated a few months ago the first computer I had built for myself back in 1998 out of nostalgia. It's a Celeron 300A on Abit BH6. Originally I only had money for 64MB RAM, then a few months later I added another 128MB for a whopping 192MB total. 😀 The drive was a 6.4GB Maxtor, sound Creative Ensoniq AudioPCI (es1371), video ATI Xpert@Play 98 (Rage Pro). Out of all these, the only original part that I still have is the sound card. The rest I foolishly gave away a number of years back. For the recreation I used parts bought mainly from ebay (found the CPU and mobo as a combo, what are the odds - but maybe I shouldn't be so surprised, it _was_ the killer combo of 1998) except for the HDD - I use a CF card instead. Nostalgia conquered! Me and that machine had spent many pleasurable hours together, until I found the money to upgrade to an Athlon.

The video card was a dog (I replaced it a bit later with a TNT2) but it also was the only video card I've ever owned with user-upgradable memory. 😀 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Rage#/media … _1997_front.jpg

Last edited by stamasd on 2016-04-01, 02:21. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 11 of 31, by clueless1

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Well done, stamasd! It's a good feeling, isn't it? I had the same combo at the time (BH6 and Celeron 300a @450). It was awesome. Enjoy 😀

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Reply 12 of 31, by PhilsComputerLab

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The only celeron I ever had was in a notebook 😀

As far as budget processors for desktops, I did have a Sempron (socket 754), now THAT was a value chip. I think it was 1.6 GHz stock and overclocked to 2.4 or 1.8 to 2.2 or something like that. Either way it was excellent value 😀

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Reply 13 of 31, by Skyscraper

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noshutdown wrote:
my ranking of celeron versions, from best to worst. the ranking is based on following factors: 1. general performance level for […]
Show full quote

my ranking of celeron versions, from best to worst.
the ranking is based on following factors:
1. general performance level for its days.
2. performance loss over the full version, the more the worse.
3. overall performance of the microarchitecture.
4. overclockability.

ranking:
1. mendocino 128kb
2. tualatin 256kb
3. wolfdale-1mb dual core
4. allendale-512kb dual core
5. cedar mill 512kb
6. coppermine 128kb
7. conroe-l 512kb single core
8. prescott 256kb
9. northwood 128kb
10. covington 0kb
11. willamette 128kb

I would rank the Coppermine Celeron as number 3 but I would also rank overclockability as the third most important factor.

The reason is the Celeron 566, more or less every Celeron 566 did 850 MHz and at that made them very good value. For some reason Intel did not implement the FC-PGA changes hindering the Coppermine working with old PPGA motherboards and slotkets on the Coppermine Celeron 566 with stepping B0. Perhaps this is true for all Coppermine Celerons with B0 stepping but the one I have tested with PPGA is a 566.

The Pentium Dual-Core made the Core 2 Duo Celerons more or less unnecessary.

New PC: i9 12900K @5GHz all cores @1.2v. MSI PRO Z690-A. 32GB DDR4 3600 CL14. 3070Ti.
Old PC: Dual Xeon X5690@4.6GHz, EVGA SR-2, 48GB DDR3R@2000MHz, Intel X25-M. GTX 980ti.
Older PC: K6-3+ 400@600MHz, PC-Chips M577, 256MB SDRAM, AWE64, Voodoo Banshee.

Reply 14 of 31, by Putas

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noshutdown wrote:

3dfx are the only video cards that can work well with k6 series, because they were designed to tolerate k6s' slower fpu and fsb bandwidth.

And exactly which design choice caused that?

Reply 16 of 31, by jesolo

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Based on posts I've read, the Celeron 300A (Mendocino) was a very good overclocker and quite popular within that community, because you could buy one for a fraction of the price of a Pentium II 450 MHz, overclock it without out too much effort and have comparative performance. As a matter of fact, some people could argue that it was probably slightly too good for its time.

My first Celeron was a 366 MHz that I owned back in the day and I was very satisfied with its performance (within the relevant price range).
Due to that, my next upgrade was a Celeron 566 MHz (Coppermine based). Around that time AMD also released their Duron CPU's.
My brother bought a Duron 600 MHz around the same time for more or less the same price and that CPU outperformed my Celeron 566 MHz by quite a margin (you could actually notice it with in game performance, despite both of us having the same graphics card and memory).

I also struggled very much in trying to overclock my Celeron 566 MHz. So, from that perspective, I wasn't very impressed with the Coppermine based 66 MHz FSB Celeron CPU's - this is also the reason why my next upgrade was an AMD Athlon 1800+.
The 100 MHZ FSB CPU's, from 800 MHz upwards, is a probably a different story (I have a Celeron 900 MHz currently performing its duty as one of my legacy Windows 98 PC's and it runs quite well).

Reply 17 of 31, by RacoonRider

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They call Willamette128K a horrible CPU, but when mine was brand-new, it ran well anything I threw at it. It aged very quickly, 2 years later it was not good for anything new and 3 years later I finally got C2D.

Reply 18 of 31, by gdjacobs

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Mendocino was often faster than the P II because of the on die L2 cache operating at the core clock.

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Reply 19 of 31, by Skyscraper

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jesolo wrote:
My first Celeron was a 366 MHz that I owned back in the day and I was very satisfied with its performance (within the relevant p […]
Show full quote

My first Celeron was a 366 MHz that I owned back in the day and I was very satisfied with its performance (within the relevant price range).
Due to that, my next upgrade was a Celeron 566 MHz (Coppermine based). Around that time AMD also released their Duron CPU's.
My brother bought a Duron 600 MHz around the same time for more or less the same price and that CPU outperformed my Celeron 566 MHz by quite a margin (you could actually notice it with in game performance, despite both of us having the same graphics card and memory).

I also struggled very much in trying to overclock my Celeron 566 MHz. So, from that perspective, I wasn't very impressed with the Coppermine based 66 MHz FSB Celeron CPU's - this is also the reason why my next upgrade was an AMD Athlon 1800+.
The 100 MHZ FSB CPU's, from 800 MHz upwards, is a probably a different story (I have a Celeron 900 MHz currently performing its duty as one of my legacy Windows 98 PC's and it runs quite well).

Someone always gets a bad apple. 😀

The B0 revison of Celeron 566 did sometimes need a bit of extra voltage to be stable at 850, especially on cheap motherboards which of course diddnt have voltage control. VID mods were popular but where the Coppermine Celerons really shined were as upgrades for Slot-1 BX boards using slotkets with VID control. Running a Celeron 566 at 8.5x112 for 950 MHz with ~2.0V wasnt unheard of even with the first revison.

The Duron was also impressive and did beat the Celeron at the same clock speed and it hit the market only 3 months after the Coppermine 128K. Core crushing issues and the fact that it used double the amount of power compared to the Celeron makes it hard to say one is better than the other thoughh. There is also the fact that the Celeron was a cheap upgrade while the Duron needed a new motherboard.

New PC: i9 12900K @5GHz all cores @1.2v. MSI PRO Z690-A. 32GB DDR4 3600 CL14. 3070Ti.
Old PC: Dual Xeon X5690@4.6GHz, EVGA SR-2, 48GB DDR3R@2000MHz, Intel X25-M. GTX 980ti.
Older PC: K6-3+ 400@600MHz, PC-Chips M577, 256MB SDRAM, AWE64, Voodoo Banshee.