badmojo wrote:

I've never had an Amiga, but I've been tempted from time-to-time since seeing this image:

http://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgaller … 90763_large.jpg

Nice picture... Cannon Fodder on Amiga 500 😀 and Slovenian computer magazine "Moj mikro" on the desk 😁

badmojo wrote:

I've never had an Amiga, but I've been tempted from time-to-time since seeing this image:

http://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgaller … 90763_large.jpg

Epic picture. It really captures how it was, owning an Amiga in 1987/88.
Posters and stuff, having that machine in you'r room. Yeah...
You were sitting and gaming all weekend, not leaving the house.
Totally 80's. Love it.

seob wrote:

I don't get it why people keep saying one should get a 1200 or the 2000,3000 or 4000 series. Those are way to expensive if you only want to play a few amiga games. Most of the games need a 500 with 1 meg of ram. Nothing more. For 1 a1200 you can buy at least 2 a500's with some goodies.
If you just start and want to see if the amiga is worth it, don't overspend on a1200 's or up.
And like others have mentioned, if you don't want to use floppies, you can get a gotek and boot games from usb stick. It won't be fast, but it's still cheaper then the other options.

Sometimes you can find one cheap you know. As of right now, I am looking at an sales add for a 600 with two double row floppy boxes (up to 200 floppy disks), a mouse and an Amiga500 PSU. The seller is asking 700 Danish Kroners. Wich is 106 US Dollars, or 94 Euro. This is by far no bad deal, as it is working and looking all white, not yellow.

seob wrote:

I don't get it why people keep saying one should get a 1200 or the 2000,3000 or 4000 series. Those are way to expensive if you only want to play a few amiga games. Most of the games need a 500 with 1 meg of ram. Nothing more. For 1 a1200 you can buy at least 2 a500's with some goodies.

I agree, the A1200/4000 were mostly a flop. Only a small amount of games had support for AGA, and even less of them would make use of an accelerator board or graphics card or anything. They were popular in the demoscene (A1200 with 040/060 is pretty much the standard 'newskool' Amiga platform), but that's pretty much it.
A lot of earlier Amiga games actually do not work properly on an A1200/4000 at all.

So yes, an A500 with 1 MB will cover 99% of the Amiga gaming experience.
A500+ and A600 are reasonable alternatives.

People recommend the A1200 for several reasons:

a. PCMCIA slot - easily transfer files via CF or NIC
b. onboard IDE - easily add a cf/2.5" hdd to your amiga
c. plenty of hardware expansions - more options than every other amiga out there (and way more than those for the A600 that also has ide/pcmcia)

So with a stock A1200 the user has more chances to work more easily with the machine, adding IDE or anything else to something like the A500 is both tricky and expensive.
Add a CF and some ram to an A1200 and you instantly have a machine that plays from HDD the 99% of A500/A1200 games (this is what WHDLOAD is for, to patch/fix games so they work on newer amigas from HD and it's a huge success for this)
No messing with floppies, no messing with floppy emulators and no load times.

I agree on the A2000/3000/4000 though, I see no point anyone recommending them to someone that wants to play games or just explore a little.

keropi wrote:

People recommend the A1200 for several reasons: […]
Show full quote

People recommend the A1200 for several reasons:

a. PCMCIA slot - easily transfer files via CF or NIC
b. onboard IDE - easily add a cf/2.5" hdd to your amiga
c. plenty of hardware expansions - more options than every other amiga out there (and way more than those for the A600 that also has ide/pcmcia)

So with a stock A1200 the user has more chances to work more easily with the machine, adding IDE or anything else to something like the A500 is both tricky and expensive.
Add a CF and some ram to an A1200 and you instantly have a machine that plays from HDD the 99% of A500/A1200 games (this is what WHDLOAD is for, to patch/fix games so they work on newer amigas from HD and it's a huge success for this)
No messing with floppies, no messing with floppy emulators and no load times.

I agree on the A2000/3000/4000 though, I see no point anyone recommending them to someone that wants to play games or just explore a little.

Yup... That's kind of like what I have tried to tell people all the time. One other BIG issue, is that if you get a stock 500, without any software and disks, you are in trouble. As you have no possible way of loading up anything. Even if you get a stock/basic 500, with the workbench disks, you will not be able to use ADF-Blitzer, as you need to use the RAM-Drive and a stock 500 only has 512k. I go for a cheap 600/1200 + IDE-to-CF.

If the 500 is chosen, then he really needs a Catweasel card for the PC. They are impossible and makes a far more expensive solution than getting a 600/1200. People talk about gotek USB floppy emulation or similair. Wich really takes away one of the most important feel of the machine. The way floppy disks were inserted and the way they were accessed. Plus the sounds. Are an essential part of the experience.

^ yes, it's exactly like that when it comes to floppies. Granted that nowdays one can invest and get a gotek drive but it's not easy as the 1200/HDD route....

i would get a Amiga 600 and a Gotek USB Floppy Emulator.
Because the Amiga 600 is not so Big and ugly like the 500.
And it has PCMCIA and HDD Support build in.
You can simply add a CompactFlash Card.

Or the Amiga 1200 if you want AGA.

An A600 + ramcard is a killer combo as well 😀

The only "problem" would be that because it has an 68000 you would not be able to quit the whdload game you are running, you would be forced to to a reboot and reload workbench. Not a big deal really, that's how floppy games work too. 🤣

Hold down left+right mouse button, when the 600/1200 is powered on. Then you get this menu, were you can change the chipset to another type.
Only works on 600/1200. The 1200 can then emulate an Amiga500 (OCS) Amiga500+/Amiga600 (ECS) or you can just leave it at AGA.
Set the 1200 to OCS and boot yet again. Insert the KickStart-1.3 emulator disk, and you practically have an Amiga500 on you'r hands.
This works on A-500+/600 too, and will give you access to over 95% of all OCS games. If they are not working, then go for WHD-Loader.

keropi wrote:

An A600 + ramcard is a killer combo as well 😀

The only "problem" would be that because it has an 68000 you would not be able to quit the whdload game you are running, you would be forced to to a reboot and reload workbench. Not a big deal really, that's how floppy games work too. 🤣

Of course you spend those 2 to 3 seconds on a warmboot after each game, back in the days. That's how it's supposed to work. 😁

keropi wrote:

People recommend the A1200 for several reasons

These people sound rather clueless to me, since the A1200 is not fully backward compatible.
An A600 also gives you IDE and PCMCIA, and getting a memory expansion to run WHDLoad is not that difficult.
But a Gotek is a better option in my opinion. WHDLoad requires more memory/overhead than the original software, and requires specific patches for games to even work, in most cases (HDDs weren't exactly standard in the 80s/early 90s, even in A1200s, and most games were not designed with HDD in mind at all, so they cannot be installed to HDD at all, and can only run from floppy).
With a Gotek you can run unmodified Amiga software, and it runs as it was intended.

I also recommend the A1200, been doing that for decades now.

... and nope, a GOTEK is NOT a better option. You cannot run "unmodified Amiga software" with it: you are relying to old warez-groups adf images from decades ago that are plagued with a gazillion problems.
Have you seen the amiga TOSEC and the 3~6 versions from various cracker-groups that the popular games have? They are a hit-and-miss even when written back to real floppies.

WHDLOAD was made just for all the reasons you mention above, not only the source files for the games are the original ones but also any protection/patches are made with recent knowledge from this millennium, not using cracks from 1990, so 99% of games run just fine with whatever amiga you want , even 060 ones. The overhead it creates is negligible - if any - all you need is RAM to store both the game files and "cache" the OS there so it can be restored later when you exit the game.
Plus WHDLOAD does just that, allows you to run floppy games from HDD - that's one of the main points. Whether the original game is hdd-installable or not it's irrelevant.

keropi wrote:

... and nope, a GOTEK is NOT a better option. You cannot run "unmodified Amiga software" with it: you are relying to old warez-groups adf images from decades ago that are plagued with a gazillion problems.

Is that so?
As far as I know, the Gotek can simulate a floppy at the level required for most games (DOS or NDOS images).

keropi wrote:

Have you seen the amiga TOSEC and the 3~6 versions from various cracker-groups that the popular games have? They are a hit-and-miss even when written back to real floppies.

What does that prove? There have always been various cracks/trainers/etc, and in some cases early releases had some bugs.
This is not specific to Gotek or TOSEC, that is just how Amiga really worked. Real Amigas, real floppies.

keropi wrote:

WHDLOAD was made just for all the reasons you mention above, not only the source files for the games are the original ones but also any protection/patches are made with recent knowledge from this millennium, not using cracks from 1990, so 99% of games run just fine with whatever amiga you want , even 060 ones.

*IF* these games have a WHDLOAD patch, *AND* your machine meets the minimum requirements (which are much higher than those of the game itself).

keropi wrote:

Plus WHDLOAD does just that, allows you to run floppy games from HDD - that's one of the main points. Whether the original game is hdd-installable or not it's irrelevant.

The point is that WHDLOAD is useless for software that has not specifically been patched by the WHDLOAD people. That's a dependency that I would not want to be in the way of me and my Amiga experience.

Scali wrote:

Is that so?
As far as I know, the Gotek can simulate a floppy at the level required for most games (DOS or NDOS images).

yeah... good luck finding ADFs that support all the crazy protection schemes of the 90s so you get working unmodified images to load to the gotek. There is a reason IPF images exist - and these are not supported by gotek. If you don't resort to cracked image files then the GOTEK is nothing more than a workbench and unprotected software loader.

Scali wrote:

What does that prove? There have always been various cracks/trainers/etc, and in some cases early releases had some bugs.
This is not specific to Gotek or TOSEC, that is just how Amiga really worked. Real Amigas, real floppies.

see above.

Scali wrote:

*IF* these games have a WHDLOAD patch, *AND* your machine meets the minimum requirements (which are much higher than those of the game itself).

Again, all you need is some RAM.
And the requirement are not "much higher" jeezzz... FYI a stock A600 with 2MB chipmem can run Turrican1/WHDLOAD just fine - since it's a 1-floppy game.
WHLOAD req's: http://whdload.de/docs/en/need.html

Scali wrote:

The point is that WHDLOAD is useless for software that has not specifically been patched by the WHDLOAD people. That's a dependency that I would not want to be in the way of me and my Amiga experience.

So what software exactly is missing ? Even if you have some obscure/lesser known game then you surely have a working floppy in your whdload amiga - nothing stops you from writting an image to a disk and load it that way.

I just have to ask at this point, have you ever played a game from the WHDLOAD packs? Have you ever used a gotek setup? Tried it with an A500/KS1.3 and were completely satisfied? TBH I doubt that you used any of that to a decent degree (if any at all).
I mean your WHDLOAD arguments - except the one for the stuff that don't have whdload installers - are just nonsense. Your gotek and game-loading knowledge is lacking as well.

So how exactly do you come off judging other people's recommendations as "clueless" when your own are not even educated?
You seem to know lots of programming stuff (for pcs at least) - but you knowledge/experience is lacking for this specific topic. Maybe you don't care much about games, maybe you didn't have a bazillion amigas, maybe you couldn't be arsed to try a bazillion hardware combos. Good for you but just stop, there isn't any law that commands you to win every internet argument.

Look, firstly you're ignoring what I say (or not understanding it), secondly, you don't seem to have any hands-on experience of real Amigas in the real Amiga days ('clueless'). This debate is useless. I mean, hello? You know who you're talking to, right? Long-time Amiga scener/hacker (just because I worked on 8088 MPH doesn't mean PC is 'my platform', read my 'Just keeping it real'-series from the start. From part 2 onwards, I cover Amiga, and later parts also cover C64).
Trying to call me clueless is pretty ridiculous.

So what software exactly is missing ? Even if you have some obscure/lesser known game then you surely have a working floppy in your whdload amiga - nothing stops you from writting an image to a disk and load it that way.

What nonsense. You don't need whdload for that. And if you have a Gotek, you don't need a real floppy for that.

I mean your WHDLOAD arguments - except the one for the stuff that don't have whdload installers - are just nonsense

My point *is* that not everything has whdload installers.

Ofcourse this debate is ridiculous - you don't know any of that stuff that is discussed here. We are not discussing 1990 hardware - we are discussing programs and addons from this millennium and for them you don't really know much.

I have no idea who I am talking to - nor do I really care about your past or how much of a big hacker/scener you were back then (God knows why you made this "argument" instead of providing facts to support your opinion). All your arguments here except one are just invalid and your lack of knowledge/hands-on-experience with recent stuff is apparent, so I'm sorry if I don't take your word for granted despite your glorious past.

The single whdload point that you explain above is being discussed in the previous posts. All others are just ignorance - including the GOTEK ones.
If you ever try a gotek setup and a semi-proper whdload setup then please come back and state facts. ATM your ego is in the way and you are spreading misinformation.

edit:

Scali wrote:

So what software exactly is missing ? Even if you have some obscure/lesser known game then you surely have a working floppy in your whdload amiga - nothing stops you from writting an image to a disk and load it that way.

What nonsense. You don't need whdload for that. And if you have a Gotek, you don't need a real floppy for that.

Further proof you don't even know what WHDLOAD is and your continuing struggle to prove you are right with totally bs arguments.
I lost all interest answering back at your crappy posts on this matter mr. Big Amiga Hacker, you are just too thick to deal with and I am just too bored to deal with your non-standing "arguments". 😵

I still swear by these type of methods, if an 500-only game is to be played....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH9hdo_5RMo

brostenen wrote:

I still swear by these type of methods, if an 500-only game is to be played....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH9hdo_5RMo

yep, that still works 🤣

keropi wrote:

you don't know any of that stuff that is discussed here.

No, you somehow think that I can't know anything about Amiga because I made a PC demo.
You are wrong.

keropi wrote:

We are not discussing 1990 hardware

Pretty sure the discussed Amigas qualify for '1990 hardware'.

keropi wrote:

we are discussing programs and addons from this millennium and for them you don't really know much.

I do.

keropi wrote:

All your arguments here except one are just invalid

I only made one argument, which is that whdload requires software-specific support.
Unless you want to point out something else, to make your point. If not, you're just throwing baseless accusations around.

keropi wrote:

and your lack of knowledge/hands-on-experience with recent stuff is apparent

How is that? More baseless accusations?

keropi wrote:

All others are just ignorance - including the GOTEK ones.

Like what?
Perhaps the ignorance is more about the different firmwares available for Goteks on Amiga?
Or the fact that you seem to be moving the goalposts all the time? Making strawman arguments?

keropi wrote:

If you ever try a gotek setup and a semi-proper whdload setup then please come back and state facts. ATM your ego is in the way and you are spreading misinformation.

No, *your* ego is in the way. You are throwing baseless accusations and insults around just because you are some kind of whdload fanboy. You also completely ignored the fact that an A1200 is not fully backward compatible with 68000 + OCS/ECS machines.

I have not spread *any* misinformation whatsoever (again, these are just your baseless accusations/misunderstandings/ignorance/moving the goalposts/etc. Which I cannot debate because you just insult, rather than point out specific issues and discuss them).