I'd fire Qbix a PM. It's all cool stuff to document.

buckeye wrote:

I was just wondering if the SB AWE64 models - gold/standard & etc. were worth looking into for DOS/Win98 systems? Already have a SB 32PNP ISA and SB Live 5.1 PCI at my disposal so maybe they're adequate???

First up, sorry for running so late into this discussion. I can only say how I percieve the cards you have asked about.

Anyway...
For DOS gaming, you really need an ISA card, and for early DOS games, you can not get around the need for a real OPL chip.
As most games from that era used the Adlib standard. The late era DOS games, would use wavetable. (AWE32/64)

Comparing AWE64 standard to Gold. The Gold card gives (to me at least) just a bit better sound output quality.
This is however not really that much an improvement, as to justify that big difference in pricetag.
I am purely talking about eBay prices here, so unless you can find a really cheap AWE64-Gold, the standard is good enough.
(Unless of course, you are gaming the late era DOS games, and you are a rich dude)

When looking at Win98 games, you can really not go wrong on PCI cards. And using Win98, I guess you are gaming
late era DOS games. For this, the AWE64 cards (standard and gold) are probably the best to go by.
The AWE64 can be used as a "gap" card, were you get the best of both Win and Dos gaming card.

If we are talking about PCI cards, then I would personally not use a SB-Live. Not that it is a bad Win98 card, just that
this card is a card that I really do not like, when compared to other options out there.
It is however a cheap card, and as so many other people here, I started with an SB-Live.
Later I have gotten both Ensoniq Audio-PCI and Yamaha YMF-724 cards, wich I like better than Live cards.

If you can get something like the YMF-724 or an Vortex2 card, then my bet is, that you will never go back to Live.
The live is not an Stereo card, and that is for me, the biggest strength of YMF-724 and Vortex.
Further more. The YMF-724 cards have OPL inside the chip. So Adlib games will sound better than Live.

Speaking of ISA cards again. Audician32 cards are really cool cards. Or YMF-718/719 cards for that sake.
The Audician 32 is an YMF-71X card, so basically every 718/719 is more or less the same as that card.
It does however lack the SB16 standard, only having SB-Pro, yet that can sometimes sound a bit nicer.
And it has a wavetable header, wich makes it a nice card.

If I sum it all up:
Audician32 for early Dos games, especially on a pure MS-Dos 6.22 machine.
AWE32 for early to mid era DOS-games.
AWE64 for late DOS era. (and as a crossover DOS/Win9X era machine)
YMF724/Vortex2 for pure Win95/98/ME gaming.

Keep in mind, that this is just my personal taste and preferances.

brostenen wrote:

for early DOS games, you can not get around the need for a real OPL chip.

Sorry, that's not true. What you need is an FM synthesis chip. It does not have to be true OPL. Alternatives such as ESFM from ESS and CQM from Creative will perform the function of playing MIDI music. They will sound a bit different. The purists on this forum will tell you that they sound so horrible that your ears will bleed, but that is horseradish.

When all else is equal, I would also prefer to have a genuine OPL chip, because that was the golden standard of MIDI composition at the time, and that's what music was mostly written for, so it will sound more true to the intent of the composer. But since all else is rarely equal, it's a possible compromise to make, and not as big as some would make you believe.

brostenen wrote:

Audician32 for early Dos games, especially on a pure MS-Dos 6.22 machine. AWE32 for early to mid era DOS-games. AWE64 for late D […]
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Audician32 for early Dos games, especially on a pure MS-Dos 6.22 machine.
AWE32 for early to mid era DOS-games.
AWE64 for late DOS era. (and as a crossover DOS/Win9X era machine)
YMF724/Vortex2 for pure Win95/98/ME gaming.

Why would you separate AWE32 and AWE64? What advantage does AWE32 have for early games and AWE64 for late games? The AWE synthesis capabilities are exactly the same, as far as I know. The AWE32 does have standard RAM expansion slots, and some rare variants have a genuine OPL3. The AWE64 may have lower noise output, and it's a more compact card. You may prefer one or the other, but I don't see how one may be better or worse for specific games.

Considering the context of the AWE32/64 in the market and the stigma of FM sound with the evolving wavetable technology being the focus then (along with the growing sitgma of blocky lowres graphics), the cards aren't the worst thing ever and hanging note/having OPL3 or not wasn't a huge consumer concern then as the purists in 2000/10s+ are for.

The Audician 32 (Yamaha YMF718) does it all except sound font loading.
Under DOS it has the whole package.
Under Windows9x it's 16bit 48kHz sounds like a modern sound card, and has a great sounding XG Software Synth if you don't have a wavetable daughterboard or other midi hardware.
It's only 15$...

dr_st wrote:

The purists on this forum will tell you that they sound so horrible that your ears will bleed, but that is horseradish.

Anything else than a real OPL chip or an OPL-Core sounds like crap in my ears.
This is just how I hear it. For instance, the AWE64 does a horrible job on some of the notes.
Not even reverb or chorus can fix that for me, on an awe64.

dr_st wrote:

Why would you separate AWE32 and AWE64? What advantage does AWE32 have for early games and AWE64 for late games? The AWE synthesis capabilities are exactly the same, as far as I know. The AWE32 does have standard RAM expansion slots, and some rare variants have a genuine OPL3. The AWE64 may have lower noise output, and it's a more compact card. You may prefer one or the other, but I don't see how one may be better or worse for specific games.

I was talking about a true AWE32 with a real OPL chip, or an OPL core build into it.
Cards such as a CT-3900 or a CT-2760. I have had a 2760 that died on me, and I have a 3900 in my collection.
The 3900 is currently in a Pentium-166 build, as I feel it belongs there. Slower systems have a SB16.
The AWE64 does not have real OPL, and I will never use such card for something like running a game on Adlib.
This is why I separate the AWE32 and the AWE64. A real AWE32 has a real OPL chip.

The AWE32 is not really the good sent card of them all. It has quirks.
I have had games that refuses to use Adlib on my 3900 card. I really do not know why and what.
I changed it to an SB16 CT2910, and everything just played nice again.
Was it the PNP part that it did not like? The pressence of the wavetable hardware? I don't know.
Really don't care, as the games I use on that build, does not have settings for AWE sound.

brostenen wrote:

The AWE32 is not really the good sent card of them all. It has quirks. I have had games that refuses to use Adlib on my 3900 car […]
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The AWE32 is not really the good sent card of them all. It has quirks.
I have had games that refuses to use Adlib on my 3900 card. I really do not know why and what.
I changed it to an SB16 CT2910, and everything just played nice again.
Was it the PNP part that it did not like? The pressence of the wavetable hardware? I don't know.
Really don't care, as the games I use on that build, does not have settings for AWE sound.

In order to hear any OPL3 (FM synthesis) sounds on an AWE based card, you have to initialise it first, with the Aweutil /s parameter.

jesolo wrote:

In order to hear any OPL3 (FM synthesis) sounds on an AWE based card, you have to initialise it first, with the Aweutil /s parameter.

Ahhh.... Now I see why it did not work on some games. Thanks for clearing this up for me. 😀

My currect Sys has a CT4170 but I am planing to go for the AWE64Gold.

I tend to judge audio on it's own merit rather than against any gold standard. As far as FM synth, I find CQM and the Crystal Semi OPL clone to both be very unpleasant and buzzy. While there are some minor differences between genuine OPL and ESFM, I find ESFM to be pleasant to listen to.

gdjacobs wrote:

I tend to judge audio on it's own merit rather than against any gold standard. As far as FM synth, I find CQM and the Crystal Semi OPL clone to both be very unpleasant and buzzy. While there are some minor differences between genuine OPL and ESFM, I find ESFM to be pleasant to listen to.

I completely agree.

dr.zeissler wrote:

My currect Sys has a CT4170 but I am planing to go for the AWE64Gold.

Vogons is packed with good information about what sound card will suit DOS and/or windows.
I suggest not buying a card because of its name or how it looks, the word Gold and its bling-bling doesn't mean it is the best of the best of the best... it is not.
If you play DOS games more (ISA), AWE64 is not the right choice.
Ask yourself if you really need Sound Fonts under DOS, if not, the AWE32 and AWE64 are not the best choice, especially the AWE32.

Personally, I don't mind an ISA card which lacks 3D sound in windows and 5db noisier than a PCI card, but offers so much more in DOS.

Thx! Look in my signature. It's an hybrid machine. Not many Dosgames will run on it.
Beside Dos-Gaming I also need a suitable card for Win9x-3dfx-Gaming.

Basically there are these elements to consider when choosing a combined DOS/Win9X sound card.
Note: You must understand first what each one means, obviously.

* SBPro2.0 compatibility.
* SB16 compatibility (16bit under DOS).
* Authentic OPL3.
* Bug free Single-Cycle DMA sounds under DOS.
* Wavetable Header.
* Bug free MPU-401.
* Sound Font loading under DOS (AWE).
* Self Noise.
* 16bit 44.1kHz support (for win9x).
* 3D audio (for win9x).

Then you simply choose a card by order of importance to you.
Make a list, I'll try to help.

brostenen wrote:

Anything else than a real OPL chip or an OPL-Core sounds like crap in my ears.
This is just how I hear it. For instance, the AWE64 does a horrible job on some of the notes.
Not even reverb or chorus can fix that for me, on an awe64.

I can't argue with anyone who says that this and this sounds like such and such to them. After all, it's all very subjective. I just wish that the FM audiophiles on the forums, both real and phony, would not use such absolute terms (crap, garbage, ears bleed, complete mess, etc.) when describing the various OPL clones. It sends a false message.

brostenen wrote:

I was talking about a true AWE32 with a real OPL chip, or an OPL core build into it.

And you didn't think it important to make this distinction in your post? After all, most AWE32 cards, did not, as far as I know, have OPL chips/cores.

James-F wrote:

The Audician 32 (Yamaha YMF718) does it all except sound font loading.
Under DOS it has the whole package.

Except you lose the explicit AWE synth support in later DOS games.

It seems that if you want a genuine OPL, then an AWE32 with one of them OPL cores seems like a better thing. Well, they do have hanging note bugs on external MPU-401, but that's opening up a whole different can of worms.

Take "Dark Forces" for example. This sound quite good on an AWE64Gold (OPL4).
In my opinion much better then with CT4170.

dr_st wrote:

James-F wrote:

The Audician 32 (Yamaha YMF718) does it all except sound font loading.
Under DOS it has the whole package.

Except you lose the explicit AWE synth support in later DOS games.

That's what I've meant by "sound font loading".

dr_st wrote:

It seems that if you want a genuine OPL, then an AWE32 with one of them OPL cores seems like a better thing. Well, they do have hanging note bugs on external MPU-401, but that's opening up a whole different can of worms.

Hanging note bug, and single-cycle DMA bug which is a lot worse if you play older DOS games.

James-F wrote:

That's what I've meant by "sound font loading".

Then you are using incorrect terminology. We are not talking about any sound font loading, but for the ability to use the built-in sound bank in the AWE32/AWE64 ROM, together with the EMU8000 synthesizer. For games that have this support, it is a trivial plug-n-play setting, which always works (without messing with any sound fonts), and always sounds better (or at least, richer) than FM.

James-F wrote:

Hanging note bug, and single-cycle DMA bug which is a lot worse if you play older DOS games.

The hanging note bug is irrelevant unless you are attaching an external device to the MPU-401. The single-cycle DMA bug may be. I'll have to investigate it some more. If it's as bad as you say it is, then the choice between AWE32 vs AWE64 basically becomes the choice between a genuine OPL3 and a bug-free DSP. Or, as you say, you can choose the Audician (or similar) and give up the AWE synth.

All in all, there is no single perfect card that has it all. Compromises have to be made, and that is why many oldtimers prefer to have multiple audio devices in their old games setup, even if it makes the setup and configuration more complicated (which is a compromise in itself).

To test the Single-Cycle DMA mode bug, start Alien Carnage (freeware) and listen to the music.
In Wolfenstein 3D listen to opening doors sound, you might want to disable the music for better audibility.
In Prince of Persia there is a CLICK after each footstep sound.
Supaplex after a Ball (zonk) falls there is a click.

And this bug happens on pre-4.16 DSP Creative cards, right?

DSP 4.05 to 4.13, basically all SB16 cards (except Vibras) including the AWE32, as far as I know.
Vibras has the revers of this bug, where there is a Ringing sound after each single-cycle DMA sound.
In Wolfenstein 3D you will hear a residual Ringing after a door opening or shooting sound with the Vibras.

Can you have a quick test with your AWE32 and return with a result to this thread?