squareguy wrote:

James-F you and some of the others need to write a sticky explaining all of this and some info from some of your other threads!

Ideally, it would be great to have a sticky for "ISA sound cards in DOS" that mentions all of this in a single article-like format and beyond that have some of the specifics regarding specific sound cards in the wiki.

With all the research done, there is too much information to let all of the specifics remain in forum threads that get buried over time. Plus, if someone nabs a random sound card at a recycle joint, garage sale, etc., they can immediately check up on it in one place (wiki) rather that Google around about it or sift through vogons threads.

CkRtech wrote:

squareguy wrote:

James-F you and some of the others need to write a sticky explaining all of this and some info from some of your other threads!

Ideally, it would be great to have a sticky for "ISA sound cards in DOS" that mentions all of this in a single article-like format and beyond that have some of the specifics regarding specific sound cards in the wiki.

With all the research done, there is too much information to let all of the specifics remain in forum threads that get buried over time. Plus, if someone nabs a random sound card at a recycle joint, garage sale, etc., they can immediately check up on it in one place (wiki) rather that Google around about it or sift through vogons threads.

I would love to help with this in any way possible. This needs to happen.

A good start would be a list of games that people think (or know!) provide certain benefits or have certain problems with specific cards. For example, game XYZ doesn't support SB16 but supports SBPro in Stereo, or game ABC actually uses 16bit audio that only an SB16\AWE\Vibra can utilize. Or on a more specific level, game QRS is meant for SBPro\SBPro2 but has problems with a specific SBPro compatible sound card.

Then the rest of us with the proper cards can test the accuracy of these tidbits of info, report on it to confirm or debunk a specific point, and then whoever is taking care of the thread can summarize and link to pertinent posts.

A forum thread and some spreadsheets would be a great start, but I see this being worthy of its own wiki article eventually. Understanding which sound cards work best for specific situations when building a DOS gaming system is essential.

I'll admit I've learned a ton from this forum but I've also done Google searches for the same topics DOZENS of times and my findings tend to contain a lot of speculation that doesn't fit with the findings of others.

squareguy wrote:

I always felt like I had to have a Sound Blaster 16 or I would be missing something from games.

DOS games?
Nought, Nil, Zot, Squat, Nada, Goose Egg, Nothing, Nero, Nilch and Zip.

No DOS game uses 44.1 16bit samples, and considering the pile of buggy mass the SB16 is, equates to one lousy card.
It has been said a million times (by me primarily) but here it is again: The last card you want for DOS gaming is a SB16.

If I would have to suggest a single card it would be a Modded Audician 32 / Labway A151-A00 LWHA151A00 or Aztech based on a AZT-2316 chip (lacks lowpass filtering in SBPro mode though).
The next best thing would be pairing an authentic SBPro2.0 CT1600 with a second card that has a quiet and bug free MPU-401 and Wavetable header, then Looping it back to the SBPro Line-In.

BTW, I just picked a SBPro 2.0 CT1600 on ebay for testing and reference.
I figured every self respecting DOS sound card hobbyist should have a CT1600, it is a must.
This whole sound card hobby is becoming a real money sucker you know...

Indeed, the SB Pro 2.0 was the best SB option for DOS. Perfect compatibility with AdLib and SB 1.0/1.5/2.0, and a decent standard in its own right.
The SB16 has a huge flaw, and that is that it's not compatible with the SB Pro 2.0. Many clones are, making them better options than 'the real thing'.

I'll be interested to know how a CT1600 compares to a YMF719E-S, as I have both cards. I'm still mulling over the specs of my time machine, but it looks like the YMF719E-S (Labway A151) is going to be the first pick. I'll be using an MT32 and MT200 for MIDI.

I don't know if I should bother using my Midiman MM401 in this system though. The ease of using a Non-PNP device that "just works" with no drivers is appealing, and I won't have to worry about using SoftMPU for intelligent mode games... but it would leave me with no free ISA slots. I guess I should just use it for now. If I end up wanting a different card in there (like an AWE or something), I can always just swap them out.

Here's a question I haven't seen come up before...

Are there any DOS games that give any special features or quality improvements when using less common sound cards? For example, I have a variety of MediaVision based cards (Logitech Soundman, PAS16, Pro Audio 3D), as well as some Crystal, Ensoniq, ESS, and others. The only particular feature I know of personally would be special MIDI soundfonts for SB AWE cards but I don't know which games, other than Descent, do this... and I'd prefer using my MT200 for GM instead. Do any other games include special effects or other features exclusive to certain sound cards?

Ozzuneoj wrote:

Here's a question I haven't seen come up before...

Are there any DOS games that give any special features or quality improvements when using less common sound cards? For example, I have a variety of MediaVision based cards (Logitech Soundman, PAS16, Pro Audio 3D), as well as some Crystal, Ensoniq, ESS, and others. The only particular feature I know of personally would be special MIDI soundfonts for SB AWE cards but I don't know which games, other than Descent, do this... and I'd prefer using my MT200 for GM instead. Do any other games include special effects or other features exclusive to certain sound cards?

I haven't played a huge number of commercial games when I was a kid, but I think the game "Beneath a Steel Sky"
only supported OPL3 if it detected PAS16 or Adlib Gold. Also, a few DOS-based advergames had built-in PAS support.
But I'm afraid that's about all I can say about this matter. The other cards are just copycats, I believe.

Because you said you have got a variety of MediaVision based cards..
I also had a PAS16 back in the days. Never had any issues with it, never wasted a thought about Sound Blaster fluff.
I also liked its ability to support a dynamic microphone. The card is non-PnP, but needs -5v.
Another interesting card is the ALS100 plus. I think it is SB Pro/SB16 compatible, but I heard there is a snag.
I think I remember some mixer flaw, as well (in the software ?). The WSS card is also good. It was the reference card for the MPC
specification. An ideal card for Windows 3.1, so to say. I wonder why DOSBox or PCem haven't emulated this one yet
(it was also supported by several SB clones).

As far as I know, games using the Miles Sound Systems can make use of the EMU8k.
I think Mega Man X (DOS version) also had AWE support..

Sorry, I know this reponse is rather poor, but alas that's all that comes to my mind right now.

Jo22 wrote:

I haven't played a huge number of commercial games when I was a kid, but I think the game "Beneath a Steel Sky"
only supported OPL3 if it detected PAS16 or Adlib Gold. Also, a few DOS-based advergames had built-in PAS support.
But I'm afraid that's about all I can say about this matter. The other cards are just copycats, I believe.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe Space Quest 4 also gives you Stereo OPL3 with the PAS 16 only. Been a while since I checked the last time though...

I was always under the impression the SB16 was /good/, weird- so SB Pro is good, AWE32/64 is good (I love my 64)- but pass over the 16 and use something else?

This is not a matter of Good/Bad, this is about what you need and for what purpose.
The SB16 has a LOT of flaws and many models which vary from one another.

To have more understanding why I think the SB16 is not a good card:
Sound Blaster 16 Bugs and Deficiencies Summary
My Sound Blaster 16 CT2230 Review

After understanding why I do not suggest the SB16, you find the next best alternative.

The Sound Blaster 16 isn't terrible, just imperfect because of bugs. The SB Pro and AWE64 have their flaws, too. The SB Pro has no MPU or AWE features, the AWE64 has a fake OPL3, and neither is able to host a MIDI daughter board. The SB Pro is great for old games where you don't mind the old school muffled and bass heavy sound, the AWE64 has nice clear sound quality for newer games, and together they can do almost everything an SB16/AWE32 does.

firage wrote:

The SB Pro is great for old games where you don't mind the old school muffled and bass heavy sound

In my opinion you even *need* that muffled and bass heavy sound, because the game audio was designed for it.
For example, a game like DOOM has really cool and scary sound effects on an old SB Pro. Play it on a modern 'clean' sound card, and it loses all effect. Firstly, they sound bright and thin, so not as scary. Secondly, because the filters are designed for CD-quality, they don't do as good of a job at low-pass filtering for lower quality audio, giving you a rather aliased and metallic sound. So the perceived quality is actually worse, in my opinion.

For this reason, I never played DOOM at the actual GUS settings on my system. I had both a GUS and an SB Pro 2.0 in my system, so I set it up to have General MIDI music via MegaEM (which somehow seemed to sound better than the built-in GUS audio, probably because DOOM didn't include as good a patch set), and use sound effects on SB Pro, because it just sounded a lot better than the 'clean' GUS audio.

Scali wrote:

In my opinion you even *need* that muffled and bass heavy sound, because the game audio was designed for it.

+1
Yep, game developers actually tweaked (equalized) the recorded sounds to sound good on the heavily filtered sound blaster cards.
You can always download chocolate-doom to run Doom on your modern machine and listen to the original sounds on your modern sound card.

I like the sound too. But it is a matter of taste for 1993 and certainly later games. The SB16 and the GUS became available in 92. Games would've definitely considered the Sound Blaster's digital sound in design, but the audio department definitely had better cards involved for most of the process.

James-F wrote:

This is not a matter of Good/Bad, this is about what you need and for what purpose. The SB16 has a LOT of flaws and many models […]
Show full quote

This is not a matter of Good/Bad, this is about what you need and for what purpose.
The SB16 has a LOT of flaws and many models which vary from one another.

To have more understanding why I think the SB16 is not a good card:
Sound Blaster 16 Bugs and Deficiencies Summary
My Sound Blaster 16 CT2230 Review

After understanding why I do not suggest the SB16, you find the next best alternative.

That's a great list!

I think its also worth it to mention that there are hanging notes that seem to be software related and can be heard on many different setups.

Roland SC-55 + YMF719 = Hanging Note Bug
hanging note bug on awe 64 gold

I'm sure there are more too. It just seems like a good thing to know so that people don't expect to never ever ever hear a hanging note if they don't use a card that doesn't have the hanging note plague.

Also, what would be the deficiencies of, for example, a YMF719?

Ozzuneoj wrote:

Also, what would be the deficiencies of, for example, a YMF719?

Reversed Stereo on Wavetable audio.
No Lowpass filter.

Both can be fixed with small hardware modifications:
Yamaha YMF71x SB Pro Mixer Bug Issue Fix
Yamaha YMF71x SB Pro Mixer Bug Issue Fix

James-F wrote:

Reversed Stereo on Wavetable audio. No Lowpass filter. […]
Show full quote

Ozzuneoj wrote:

Also, what would be the deficiencies of, for example, a YMF719?

Reversed Stereo on Wavetable audio.
No Lowpass filter.

Both can be fixed with small hardware modifications:
Yamaha YMF71x SB Pro Mixer Bug Issue Fix
Yamaha YMF71x SB Pro Mixer Bug Issue Fix

I'll most likely be doing the filter mod, though the waveblaster mod isn't really needed since I don't own any daughterboards and instead use external devices for MIDI.

My card is similar to the one you used (719E-S)... which driver do you use for Windows and what setup (driver, autoexec, etc.) do you use for DOS?

firage wrote:

I like the sound too. But it is a matter of taste for 1993 and certainly later games. The SB16 and the GUS became available in 92. Games would've definitely considered the Sound Blaster's digital sound in design, but the audio department definitely had better cards involved for most of the process.

I also like the big and "fat" sound of early SBs. Same for early Model 1 Sega Genesises/MegaDrives.
Btw, I once read an article about them. Apparently, the MegaDrive's mono-output gets internally filtered completely differently and
independently from the head phones jack. I don't recall the details, but the mono sound was mixed by a separate chip and the circuit
implied some odd trickery to do the filtering, resulting in this famous, fat sound.
It's a shame I can't find the link to the original post from that guy. 🙁

firage wrote:

The SB16 and the GUS became available in 92. Games would've definitely considered the Sound Blaster's digital sound in design, but the
audio department definitely had better cards involved for most of the process.

I agree. But The SB/SB Pro were still the "gold" standard then. Nobody had an idea how things would went on.
So they continued to optimize their games to sound best on these Sound Blasters, because of their large user base.
Even though game developers had professional audio equipment and could have included higher quality sounds.

I can only imagine what dilemma these games' designers had to face..
There either wasn't just enough space to store separate sets of sounds (in case of floppy releases)
or it was too much of a hassle to go through the whole sound-processing again. (They already were under pressure to meet the dead-line.)

Perhaps it would also have been necessary to modify the games' audio engines for that kind of support, I don't know.
Back in the early to mid 90s, several different PC generations were around next to each others. 286es next to 586es.
I imagine that playback of 16Bit 44KHz audio would have been a bit too much for a 386SX-25,
if it also had to handle graphics at the same time (esp. if audio was streamed in PIO mode).

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

Jo22 wrote:

I haven't played a huge number of commercial games when I was a kid, but I think the game "Beneath a Steel Sky"
only supported OPL3 if it detected PAS16 or Adlib Gold. Also, a few DOS-based advergames had built-in PAS support.
But I'm afraid that's about all I can say about this matter. The other cards are just copycats, I believe.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe Space Quest 4 also gives you Stereo OPL3 with the PAS 16 only. Been a while since I checked the last time though...

Thanks Phil! You're right about special support for the MediaVision cards.
Just checked, my copy of SQ4 does include Stereo FM support for PAS exclusively.
No SB Pro support is mentioned, just normal Adlib and Sound Blaster. And PC-Speaker, MT32/MIDI, of course.

Jo22 wrote:

Just checked, my copy of SQ4 does include Stereo FM support for PAS exclusively.

It doesn't say PAS16 though.
The original PAS was a dual OPL2 card, like the original SB Pro, but I believe the PAS was on the market first.
So it could be that they added support for Stereo FM before the SB Pro was available.
However, the original SB Pro is probably compatible with it (same chips, same addresses?). I think for OPL3 to be compatible, it needs to be switched into a 'dual OPL2'-ish mode first, so it might require a small modification to the game, or the use of some kind of TSR program to do that.

Edit: apparently this post has more information on dual OPL2 on SB Pro and PAS: Games with dual OPL2 support for stereo FM?
Sounds like the SB Pro and PAS aren't directly compatible, as the second OPL2 is at a different address. Aside from that, you need to reprogram the mixer manually, which also wouldn't be compatible. Still, with a few small changes, it should be possible to make it work on both dual OPL2 SB Pro and OPL3 cards.

I only have a PAS16, and in that game, you get nice Stereo FM 😀

In many other Sierra games, like Police Quest III, you really need to dual OPL2 PAS for Stereo FM.

Jo22 wrote:

I also like the big and "fat" sound of early SBs. Same for early Model 1 Sega Genesises/MegaDrives. Btw, I once read an article […]
Show full quote

I also like the big and "fat" sound of early SBs. Same for early Model 1 Sega Genesises/MegaDrives.
Btw, I once read an article about them. Apparently, the MegaDrive's mono-output gets internally filtered completely differently and
independently from the head phones jack. I don't recall the details, but the mono sound was mixed by a separate chip and the circuit
implied some odd trickery to do the filtering, resulting in this famous, fat sound.
It's a shame I can't find the link to the original post from that guy. 🙁

Sega really made a mess with those audio circuits! It was so good to start with, and then they followed with really strange crappy designs. I put one of those "CCAM" derived replacement circuits into my Model 2 and it sounds great now. 😀

Jo22 wrote:

I agree. But The SB/SB Pro were still the "gold" standard then. Nobody had an idea how things would went on. So they continued t […]
Show full quote

firage wrote:

The SB16 and the GUS became available in 92. Games would've definitely considered the Sound Blaster's digital sound in design, but the
audio department definitely had better cards involved for most of the process.

I agree. But The SB/SB Pro were still the "gold" standard then. Nobody had an idea how things would went on.
So they continued to optimize their games to sound best on these Sound Blasters, because of their large user base.
Even though game developers had professional audio equipment and could have included higher quality sounds.

Yeah, things remained at 8-bit and 11 kHz for compatibility, performance and storage considerations. The SB Pro may not be at a meaningful disadvantage because of its lower mixing rate and even less so for lower bit depth, but digital sound would've been produced on equipment with neutral response and increasingly for playback on sound cards with the new less colored hifi signature. The SB Pro has the necessary warmth for old stuff but is missing detail later on, in my opinion.