Oh, I thought you meant "sound advice" as in "good advice" 🤣

I can vouch for the 2770; it's a very nice sounding card and works quite well in DOS. Just don't use Creative's mixer driver; use SBMIX which doesn't install itself in memory.

You can use the Vortex 2 under DOS to host a DB and handle MIDI.

Thanks for replies.

I am going to ask my question slightly differently.

Windows 98 / DOS 7.1 Time Machine

PCI sound card for Windows, doesn't matter what since it will not be configured for any DOS compatibility / devices

ISA Sound Blaster Pro compatible sound card for DOS

So far everything is fine and I see no issues as I have done this many times.

My real question is if I want to add a genuine Sound Blaster 16 to the setup what problems will arise? How do I handle two Adlib compatible cards? The main reason I wish to add the SB16 is to play with it in games that have SB16 selectable in their sound setup and for the rare (not sure how rare) games that need 8-bit to 2/3-bit ADPCM to not have missing sounds like Duke II.

I don't 'Have' to have it, I just 'Want' to have it and I am curious what problems / work arounds this might entail. Basically it would be like having a Sound Blaster 16 and a Sound Blaster Pro II in the same system.

Why not an AWE64? You gain AWE compatibility and still have a pretty quiet SB16 compatible card.

You can use CTCM to map the OPL3 to another address.

squareguy wrote:

Thanks for replies. […]
Show full quote

Thanks for replies.

I am going to ask my question slightly differently.

Windows 98 / DOS 7.1 Time Machine

PCI sound card for Windows, doesn't matter what since it will not be configured for any DOS compatibility / devices

ISA Sound Blaster Pro compatible sound card for DOS

So far everything is fine and I see no issues as I have done this many times.

My real question is if I want to add a genuine Sound Blaster 16 to the setup what problems will arise? How do I handle two Adlib compatible cards? The main reason I wish to add the SB16 is to play with it in games that have SB16 selectable in their sound setup and for the rare (not sure how rare) games that need 8-bit to 2/3-bit ADPCM to not have missing sounds like Duke II.

I don't 'Have' to have it, I just 'Want' to have it and I am curious what problems / work arounds this might entail. Basically it would be like having a Sound Blaster 16 and a Sound Blaster Pro II in the same system.

Reserve the appropriate SB16 resources in BIOS and you won't have a problem. Using the Vortex 2 to run MIDI in DOS will allow you to avoid hanging note bugs on your SB16 card, so it's a smart way to configure your system. Finding a SB16 card with low noise can take some time, though, so be prepared to do quite a bit of testing.

squareguy wrote:

Now... I am seriously thinking about installing a Sound Blaster 16 to handle 16-bit sound in DOS

The only parameter that bit depth is responsible for is digital noise floor (this is not self-noise which tends to be lower).
Each bit equals to about 6db of dynamic range, so 8bit = 48db, 16bit = 96db of dynamic range.
When a sound sample is close to the bottom bits in 8bit it tends to cut off the quieter part if they go below -48db.
That is why most DOS games have LOUD 8bit sounds to have more dynamic range without cutting off the quieter sounds.
16bit has 96db of dynamic range which is enough range to record a mosquito and a jackhammer without cuttoffs, that's why it is still the standard to this day.

Please watch THIS video, it will be the most informative lesson about digital audio you've ever learned, I promise.
At 8:40 is the part about Bit-Depth, but I suggest to watch it all.

To test these cutoffs run DOOM, mute Music, lower the Sound volume all the way down and then up one click.
The sounds will play at the bottom of the 8bit dynamic range and will be dithered and noisy.

The point of this is to tell you you don't need 16bit in DOS.

As for ADPCM for Duke2....... dosbox.... 😁

Thanks James-F, very interesting video indeed.

So if I have a perfect (no such thing really but just pretend) Sound Blaster Pro II then is there any reason to have a Sound Blaster 16 for games?

I am not aware of a single DOS game that uses real 44.1kHz recorded samples and Stereo audio combined.
If anyone knows such game, please inform us.

16bit is completely irrelevant for DOS gaming, if you've watched the video and understood it it should be clear why.
Most audio samples recorded for DOS games are WAY louder than 8bit noise floor to have any negative significance, let alone 16bit.

Since most (all?) DOS games did not use 44.1kHz samples and Stereo combined nor used very quiet sounds at the bottom of 8bit noise floor to have a problem with cutoffs and noise,
AND considering that "recent" SBPro2.0 clones have UART MPU-401 and Wavetable Header, there is no benefit of the SB16 in DOS whatsoever.

I might sound negative about the SB16, but I'm speaking from personal experience and factual research.
There is nothing that the buggy SB16 has to offer over a fully equipt SBPro2.0 clone for DOS games.

Well unless someone has something to add I guess I'm packing my SB16's back up.

I will stick with the tried and true two sound card solution. One ISA for DOS and one PCI for Windows.

One more question James-F. If it were possible for the ES1688 to have less noise would you choose that over the Yamaha? So far that is the only considerable difference I am seeing between the ESS1688 and modded YMF719. Am I correct in saying that?

Well if the ESS1688 had an authentic OPL (ESFM practically indistinguishable, but still), and silent MPU-401, Yes it would be a very nice alternative.

Another excellent SBPro2.0 alternative is the Aztech with a AZT-2316 chipset, it has YMF262 (most authentic OPL3), non-reversed Wavetable, Very Silent, ADPCM, and 44.1kHz 16bit in Windows, but it lacks Lowpass Filter which is (IMO) an essential part of the nostalgic and familiar sound of DOS gaming.
If I would have to choose between a stock unmodified Audician 32 (YMF71x) and the Aztech 2316, I would choose the Aztech, both don't have a Lowpass Filter stock but the Aztech has less "errors" of the box.

Still, after modifying the hardware and tweaking the mixer, there is no better and more full-featured DOS sound card than the YMF71x that I am aware of.

The Aztech cards also supported Windows Sound System (16-bit 44.1khz audio), which some later DOS games (Miles had a driver for it) worked with as well. I think the whole point of the Soundblaster 16 option in setup programs was to get back the stereo audio that SB Pro only games lost since Creative cheaped out on backwards compatibility with the card.

James-F wrote:

Please watch THIS video, it will be the most informative lesson about digital audio you've ever learned, I promise.
At 8:40 is the part about Bit-Depth, but I suggest to watch it all.

I always link everyone to the article first as it explains things in more depth and the video is the "Digital Show & Tell" hyperlink in the header.
Made my audio professor show this video in his class 🤣 we had an argument over what Bit-Depth really meant, and why any playback device over 48khz was practically nonsense for the end users.
He kept using the digital photo analogy that more bits meant more definition, and the same applied for audio. I informed him that was a common misconception and they are unrelated to each other, then the video happened and the light went on upstairs. End of argument 😀

NJRoadfan wrote:

I think the whole point of the Soundblaster 16 option in setup programs was to get back the stereo audio that SB Pro only games lost since Creative cheaped out on backwards compatibility with the card.

If I would have to guess I would say that Creative completely removed High-Speed mode from DSP version 4.xx because the technology allowed Normal mode up to 44.1kHz.
I assume that Creative had reasons behind that decision because High-Speed mode must have been limited in some way.
But why didn't they think about the games that already use the high-speed mode is a mystery.
The SBPro 1.0 was introduced in May 1991 and the SB16 in June 1992, but the SBPro 2.0 was also introduced in 1992 and continued selling along with the SB16 well into the 90s.
So this is indeed a mystery why the SB16 don't support high-speed modes, SB2, SBPro1 and SBPro2 did.

ZanQuance wrote:

I always link everyone to the article first as it explains things in more depth and the video is the "Digital Show & Tell" hyperlink in the header.

Xiph is the go-to source to busts away all the audiophools. 🤣

James-F wrote:

But why didn't they think about the games that already use the high-speed mode is a mystery.
The SBPro 1.0 was introduced in May 1991 and the SB16 in June 1992, but the SBPro 2.0 was also introduced in 1992 and continued selling along with the SB16 well into the 90s.
So this is indeed a mystery why the SB16 don't support high-speed modes, SB2, SBPro1 and SBPro2 did.

Are there many titles that use those modes?

James-F wrote:

Xiph is the go-to source to busts away all the audiophools. 🤣

Monty is a superstar!

Don't forget about WSS mode of the Yamaha cards 😀

There are a few games that let you select it. Descent sounds quite a bit clearer with it. And I believe there are some tracker games, like Turrican 2, that let you select 44 KHz sample rate and use the High DMA 5 on a Sound Blaster 16. It supports WSS as well.

Has anyone ever put together a comprehensive list\spreadsheet to show the games that take advantage of the sb16 or sbpro specifically? A Google doc that let peope add to it would be a great place to start. In my opinion, this is something this community really could use because the question of what sound cards to use almost always comes back to the subject of "what games actually work better with one card or there other?"

I should have been clear, I was wondering about high speed mode on the SB Pro. It's good to know which games supported SB 16/44k output, though!

gdjacobs wrote:

Are there many titles that use those modes?

Usually when SBPro high-speed DMA Stereo is supported the SB16 is also supported.

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

Don't forget about WSS mode of the Yamaha cards.

WSS is like having a bug free SB16 with 16bit 44.1kHz in DOS which is great for games that support it.
BUT, if the game itself don't use 44.1kHz or 16bit samples, is makes absolutely no difference in sound.
It is kind of like playing 8bit 11kHz sounds on a modern 24bit 192kHz audio interface, the sounds are still 8bit 11kHz, makes sense?

BTW, when the YMF71x in WSS mode its Lowpass Filter behaves exactly like the SB16 brickwall filter, which is a nice thing to know/hear.
By the sound of it, Descent and Carmageddon do not use 44.1kHz 16bit samples so we might as well use the SBPro option, but WSS has the nice sounding brickwall filtering of the SB16.

James-F you and some of the others need to write a sticky explaining all of this and some info from some of your other threads!

This is some of the most useful information I have seen on the subject. I always felt like I had to have a Sound Blaster 16 or I would be missing something from games. I can now put that to rest in my head. Thanks again!

I might put a rough draft together in the next few weeks when I have time. It will take a while to write / source / credit / etc