VOGONS


First post, by VenomSpark

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Hi everyone 😀

This is my first post, and I'd like first to introdue myself.. Im Niko, a 25 years old guy with an extremely HARDCORE passion for retro gaming\computing.. even if im still young and born "only" in 1991, I still have feelings and passion for computing of those real gold times 😜 First of all sorry for my horrible english (im italian, born and living in Rome, Italy) so please forgive me if sometimes I speak like a dummy..

Even thought I have a good modern pc (Core i7, 12GB, R9 380X, SSD, Win10 Pro x64 ecc.) im still into retrogaming, as I like emulators but I way prefer the real native sensation, so DOSBOX and other (great) emulators don't give me the sensation of gaming like I did in those years (plus, some games still have problems, lags or stuttering) so I come to the question, hoping this is the right section and forum 😄

I have a second pc, with Windows 2000, and old AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 2.20Ghz Single core, 1GB DDR2 and one Nvidia GeForce 9800GTX+ made for old games that in my main modern one won't never run, and is pretty cool and stable, after hard software work on it I managed to create a good gaming station, but not old enough for DOS games, that is my core goal of this post... As you all know, W2K is a NT 4.0 operative system, so It don't have real DOS anymore, not like until Millenium Edition did (it can be unlockable).. I have a LOT of DOS games on that machine, but as I said they don't work properly, as W2K have a poor DOS emulation, audio will and won't work in any way, not even with VDM Sound, as most of times it gives lags or crashes..

So, one day I found this awesome gold treasure from the past in my attic: is an old Tyan S1894 Tigercub 100 Micro-ATX motherboard, i440BX BIOS dated 1999 with an old Pentium III 500Mhz Katmai core on a Slot 1!!! 😲 😲 I was soo excited to have found finally a really old PC for gaming, but I was afraid that it was never working or not even turning on, so I took it down in my home and tried to give it a try.. This mobo had a lot of issues, starting from the panel pins bended, battery dead and ram not working and another few details, but the condition was looking apparentely in good shape.. after almost 4 days of full work I managed to finally make it turn on, run and perfectly functional by added some old pieces I had in my collection, like a 10GB 1999 HDD, a 256MB of SDRAM stick (even if system recognize only 128MB), a GeForce 2 MX 200 64mb AGP4x (system recognize 2x), an old PS\2 (!!) mouse and keyboard, and of course Windows 98 SE... now, I managed, with my big surprise, to make everything run, even USB sticks works, video driver too and everything, and now I come to the point of the topic (sorry for long post, but I like to be the most accurate possible!): I just CAN'T make sound card work.. I have two slightly different PCI SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 cards (one model is SB0100, the other "sister" SB0060) that I remember one of two 100% works, but they won't on this computer 🙁 I tried to put both of them in every of 4 PCI slots the motherboard have (there's also one ISA connector, but this stuff is REALLY way too old), without results: Windows 98 won't recognize them. This motherboard have an audio card integrated, or at least I think as it have a Creative chip near the 3 audio jack's holes, so I guess it should work but it simply won't.. Can somebody help me getting audio (and if possible, even under DOS.. with IRQ settings ecc.) please? What im missing? I tried to search drivers for this model but with no luck, I tried to use the original SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 CD-ROM driver but even if they installs the system won't physically see the card, I tried to get a look into the bios (is an AWARD one), even if is very too old and there's a lot of options that I can't understand, but nothing that mentions integrated audio settings (until now, I never managed to see the little audio speaker near the clock in W98SE) or how to activate it.. This motherboard looks rare or at least very old, or both.

This should be the PDF manual of the motherboard if it can help ftp://ftp.tyan.com/manuals/m_s1894_110.pdf, Im not sure if is the 100% original one, but I can confirm from photos that is 98,99% near to what it actually looks like (beyond the sigle S1894, there's nothing else written in the board except the brand, Tyan), so I guess this should be the right manual but it didn't help me to solve my problem 🙁 I'd like just to fix this as im pratically done with this project, I tried passing via USB stick some DOS games for test, like DOOM and Blood, and they perfectly run but without of course audio..

Thanks for your possible replies and help, and sorry for long drama post!

Reply 1 of 10, by Deksor

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Is plug and play activated in the bios ?
The integrated sound should allow you to disable it in the "integrated peripherals" section of the bios. At least my lifetec pentium 3 does.

Agp4x detected as 2x is normal, because most of these boards only work in 2x mode so the video card is a little bit bottlenecked by the board.

Also I'm not sure that for dos games people would recommend you a pci audio card

Also, welcome to vogons 😁

Trying to identify old hardware ? Visit The retro web - Project's thread The Retro Web project - a stason.org/TH99 alternative

Reply 2 of 10, by deleted_Rc

User metadata

Had a a similair problem with my pentium just yesterday, we have similair specs 😵
I was trying to plug my SB Live! CT 4760 ony my P3BF 500 MHZ, and didn't work either (difference is that I had only 3 PCI slots and a ISA slot left to put it on). I tried putting my sound card near the ISA slot at the first try, the PCI slot didn;t recognize it at first so I had had to do some switching of my known working PCI slots (and still keep enough room for cooling of my 3 graphic cards). So I advice switching to another slots which do work and mark the broken ones for later (most likely its just dirty so cleaning with some compressed air and some Isopropyl could fix it, disconnect the power of the mobo first and no battery just incase).
Drivers were my next problem, I downloaded the drivers CD from the Vogon library at first however I ran in some compability problems with them. Windows kept having problems of either not finding the drivers or no sound, in the end I went into the system info and copied the hardware info on the model and searched for matching drivers online (hello 3 hours of work just to get my sound card working 🤣 )
Another possibility like mentioned above could be that the on board sound card is blocking your own PCI (unlikely but possible), download the manual from google and look for the jumper settings or if no jumper try the bios. When you detected the sound card I would suggest looking up the exact card model which can be accesed through windows: Start > Programs Accessoires > system > Systeminfo, then go to parts and then either problemparts or misc. I found them in problemparts which were not properly detected or installed. (uninstall your current drivers then reset your computer and reinstall with fresh compatible downloaded ones (I got mine from Driversguide)

Deksor wrote:
Is plug and play activated in the bios ? The integrated sound should allow you to disable it in the "integrated peripherals" sec […]
Show full quote

Is plug and play activated in the bios ?
The integrated sound should allow you to disable it in the "integrated peripherals" section of the bios. At least my lifetec pentium 3 does.

Agp4x detected as 2x is normal, because most of these boards only work in 2x mode so the video card is a little bit bottlenecked by the board.

Also I'm not sure that for dos games people would recommend you a pci audio card

Also, welcome to vogons 😁

I ran some tests on that yesterday ony my Pentium 500 Win98SE (so no dos start up), which went fine with all the games I was able to start: Merits galactic Reunion, Lands of Lore, Lost Eden, Hand of Fate, Warcraft, Dune 1, Warcraft, Megarace, Jazz, Wolfenstein, Megarace (1 & 2), quake, settlers II and Diablo which had no sound problems with my SB Life!.

Reply 3 of 10, by VenomSpark

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Thanks for fast replies and welcomes!! 😀

Deksor was right, indeed there was a PNP option in the bios setted to disabled, anyway rebooted but still nothing... Then, I follow the great advice of my man Richo, and indeed he was right! I noticed thanks to the daylight, that there was a little jumper right between the first two PCI ports (oh, this mobo had 3 PCI ports, not 4 like I mentioned T_T) and just noticed that they are numbered, it was labeled as JP17 (so, Jumper 17) and taking a quick look at manual and searching in the pdf file JP17, that was the jumper for enabling or disabling the audio! 😁 Indeed, as I took the pin out the system finally recognized a PCI audio card, so looks like that was just a jumper problem 😀

Anyway, I just installed the driver I found online, but i am using the integrated one, as I noticed that enabling the jumper will disable the integrated audio and let PCI open, but my SB Live! card won't be recognized.. A shame but for now it doesn't matter as the audio is working! I just tested DOOM and Blake Stone, and I noticed that the sound is slightly different from a real SoundBlaster, it sounds a little bit goofy but who cares, now it works! ^^ I will still work for try to make my Live! 5.1 working on PCI, but for now im satisfied with the integrated one, that should be a SB AudioPCI 64V Mixer, don't know if you guys know it but then again, thanks for your help and fast replies, I'm so happy with my "new" configuration, now all DOS games runs perfectly and finally I have a true native DOS gaming system! Long life to MS DOS 😀

Oh! I have another question, if of course I can ^^ I have really a tons of old PATA HDD, from a 40GB to 160\180GB, most of all found in thrash boxes or recovered from old dead PC, anyway most of them still works! But I noticed when I tried to plug one Western Digital 40GB on this baby, it stucks on "Detecting Primary IDE Master [Press F4 to skip]" bios POST message.. I read around the internet that is an issue of old motherboard, where they can't read disks above 32GB size file, is that true? Some said that you need to update the BIOS, but I REALLY don't know how to do it on a 1999 machine, nowday you just put a file into USB and go into bios and it flashes automatically, but how to do in this motherboard? I need a floppy drive? I have a 80GB old HDD full with games that I'd like to plug in as second drive, as for now I have only lik 7GB left on a 10GB HDD 🙁 Let me know --> FIXED!!! still thanks again you guys are so amazing, just like this forum! ♥

Reply 4 of 10, by Deksor

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Yes, bios updates were made using floppies. If you can't find the old BIOS flashing program, there's one program called "uniflash" that can flash a lot of old motherboards like these (if you have the corresponding rom image) that bug found in award bioses was fixed somewhere in 1999 (I don't remember when exactly), so any rom from 2000 or later should be okay. There's also a tutorial to mod the BIOS on the internet, but it's a bit complicated, can be risky, and it didn't work for me for my pentium 2 ... (But I've found that my motherboard was probably a clone of an ABIT because they had the exact same POST code. I flashed it and then I was able to use 40gb hdds ^^. But I won't recommend doing that too except if you have stuff to reverse it if something goes wrong)

Trying to identify old hardware ? Visit The retro web - Project's thread The Retro Web project - a stason.org/TH99 alternative

Reply 5 of 10, by deleted_Rc

User metadata

Check your manual for maximum disk capacity or cnet. The mobo should at least recognise the disk as a hdd. Check this in the bios. You could check jumper settings on your HD, you need 1 primary and the rest slave. Is the ide cable positioned on pin 1 on the mobo or drive? What are the jumper settings on your odd?

Reply 6 of 10, by Kamerat

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
VenomSpark wrote:

...I just tested DOOM and Blake Stone, and I noticed that the sound is slightly different from a real SoundBlaster, it sounds a little bit goofy but who cares, now it works! ^^ I will still work for try to make my Live! 5.1 working on PCI, but for now im satisfied with the integrated one, that should be a SB AudioPCI 64V Mixer, don't know if you guys know it but then again, thanks for your help and fast replies, I'm so happy with my "new" configuration, now all DOS games runs perfectly and finally I have a true native DOS gaming system! Long life to MS DOS 😀...

For DOS games you should select General MIDI if that's an option for music. Your onboard ES1371 also supports MT32 emulation with the MT32.EXE utility and it works nice for games that don't use custom patches.

For better sound from the MIDI synth you can configure SBPCI.INI (may be located in your Windows directory) to use the EAPCI8M.ECW instead under the SynthFile= option.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
YouTube channel

Reply 7 of 10, by VenomSpark

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Kamerat wrote:

For DOS games you should select General MIDI if that's an option for music. Your onboard ES1371 also supports MT32 emulation with the MT32.EXE utility and it works nice for games that don't use custom patches.

For better sound from the MIDI synth you can configure SBPCI.INI (may be located in your Windows directory) to use the EAPCI8M.ECW instead under the SynthFile= option.

Thanks for the advices! I wondering if is possible to get the same sound from a "real" (or anyway that could sound the same) SoundBlaster 16 even on this card, I mean sound effects sounds great, but the music are a little bit weak.. is an hardware limitation of the integrated graphic card, or i am missing some configuration? Sorry but im a little bit newbie in these things 😜

I would need a last help if is possible.. I have now found an old Radeon 7000 64mb, the real fist ever ATI Radeon R100 in the market, and is slightly better than the other GeForce 2 MX200 I had before, I read somewhere that this card also supports VESA in DOS for gaming, but I don't really know where to find them and how to install it on DOS, can you please help me? Thanks again guys ^^

Reply 8 of 10, by Kamerat

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
VenomSpark wrote:

Thanks for the advices! I wondering if is possible to get the same sound from a "real" (or anyway that could sound the same) SoundBlaster 16 even on this card, I mean sound effects sounds great, but the music are a little bit weak.. is an hardware limitation of the integrated graphic card, or i am missing some configuration? Sorry but im a little bit newbie in these things 😜

Unfortunately, no. The ES1371 and the Live! emulates the FM synth if you select Sound Blaster, Ad Lib or OPL2/3 for music in games. The emulation doesn't sound good, so for games supporting General MIDI for music select that instead. Even the Sound Blaster 16 can sound different as some use CQM instead of OPL3 for FM synth.

VenomSpark wrote:

I would need a last help if is possible.. I have now found an old Radeon 7000 64mb, the real fist ever ATI Radeon R100 in the market, and is slightly better than the other GeForce 2 MX200 I had before, I read somewhere that this card also supports VESA in DOS for gaming, but I don't really know where to find them and how to install it on DOS, can you please help me? Thanks again guys ^^

The Radeon 7000 is based on the cut down RV100 core, the Radeon DDR were the first R100 based card. High resolution gaming in DOS with "newer" cards usually works without any drivers in my experience.

DOS Sound Blaster compatibility: PCI sound cards vs. PCI chipsets
YouTube channel

Reply 9 of 10, by chinny22

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Hi and welcome! You already have a few nice retro PC’s

You’re on board soundcard has an interesting history.
It is actually a Ensonic Audio PCI 64. Wikipedia has good information about it but basically it has very nice MIDI support especially if you use EAPCI8M.ECW Kamerat mentioned, better than a Live! but it doesn’t support EAX
It also has one of the best legacy support for DOS for a PCI card and can emulate a SB16 in DOS both in windows and booting into DOS mode.
It’s this emulation that Creative wanted and took over Ensonic, renamed the card as a SoundBlaster 64 PCI and used the DOS support for their own products including the Live! soundcards. So both your cards will sound the same in DOS.
I would still recommend a ISA sound card though. Just a cheap Sound Blaster 16 clone off ebay will still be better than any PCI card.

Re DOS video, DOS doesn’t have drivers, it just uses VESA standards which is in the graphics cards BIOS. Some graphics chips are better than others, even back when DOS was the main system. Just try it out on some games and see how it goes 😀

Reply 10 of 10, by gdjacobs

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Yes, DOS either uses VESA standards or the program accesses the video hardware directly. Unless you have a program that you know requires a specific graphics chip, I recommend consulting this compatibility chart:
http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder