VOGONS


Any Love For Socket 5?

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First post, by senrew

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Just curious about this one. The consensus seems to be to go Socket 3, 7, or SS7 for gaming in the era that the Socket 5 machines would have been around.

My very first machine was a Packard Bell Legend 406CD, P75 on a Socket 5 board. I played tons of DOS and early windows games on that machine without issue, though I have to admit I didn't play a HUGE range of games that would have tested compatibility.

Is there any reason to build up a Socket 5 machine, other than nostalgia or uniqueness?

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Reply 1 of 41, by clueless1

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Strangely, my socket 5 (Triton chipset) has faster PCI slots than my SiS530 SS7. So for example, the same cpu/graphics card combo scores much higher on the socket 5 in Speedsys Video memory speed and in Quake 640x480.
CPU: POD200MMX
Graphics: TNT2 M64
socket 5-
-Speedsys video 73544 KB/s
-Quake 640x480 15.2 fps
SS7-
-Speedsys video 37064 KB/s
-Quake 640x480 14.4 fps

Of course, the disadvantage is the socket 5 tops out at 200Mhz MMX while the SS7 can run the POD200MMX at 250Mhz, and can run K6 cpus up to 550Mhz.

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Reply 3 of 41, by jade_angel

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By and large, anything you can do with a Socket 5 machine will work on a Socket 7 or SS7 machine, though again, watch the chipset, because some of them suck hosewater. Via chipsets were usually decent, but it pays to google them to weed out the stinkers.

In general, I'd only build a machine on the Socket 5 platform for nostalgia's sake, or if you get a heck of a deal. That goes double for Socket 4. If you're trying to recreate the experience of a Pentium 75, you could use that exact CPU on a Socket 7 platform - or something similar, like an AMD K5 or Cyrix 6x86, and you'd have more room to go up if you need more CPU grunt. Plus it would open up the option of AGP graphics cards.

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Reply 4 of 41, by Unknown_K

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I have a few socket 5 systems, one of my favorites is a Zenith Data Systems tower Z Server EX. Memory card and Processor card are removable, its a huge custom ISA/EISA system with a P90 if I recall correctly.

Would a socket 5 be better then a socket 7 for gaming... no. BUT the OEM systems using socket 5 were mostly high end custom high quality jobs that you would want just for the design.

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Reply 6 of 41, by feipoa

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clueless1 wrote:
Strangely, my socket 5 (Triton chipset) has faster PCI slots than my SiS530 SS7. So for example, the same cpu/graphics card com […]
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Strangely, my socket 5 (Triton chipset) has faster PCI slots than my SiS530 SS7. So for example, the same cpu/graphics card combo scores much higher on the socket 5 in Speedsys Video memory speed and in Quake 640x480.
CPU: POD200MMX
Graphics: TNT2 M64
socket 5-
-Speedsys video 73544 KB/s
-Quake 640x480 15.2 fps
SS7-
-Speedsys video 37064 KB/s
-Quake 640x480 14.4 fps

Of course, the disadvantage is the socket 5 tops out at 200Mhz MMX while the SS7 can run the POD200MMX at 250Mhz, and can run K6 cpus up to 550Mhz.

If you use a standard Pentium 75 or Pentium 100, does the Socket 5 still out perform the SiS 530? By what percent and with what test criteria?

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Reply 7 of 41, by vetz

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Hehe, I started a very similar topic three years ago:
Why no love for Socket 5?

Since then I've acquired a decent amount of Socket 5 boards, see some benchmarks here:
Socket 5 & 7 Motherboard VGA Benchmark comparison

Socket 5 reviews:
ASUS PCI/I-P54TP4 Socket 5 motherboard thread/review
Freetech 586F52 motherboard thread

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Reply 8 of 41, by clueless1

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feipoa wrote:
clueless1 wrote:
Strangely, my socket 5 (Triton chipset) has faster PCI slots than my SiS530 SS7. So for example, the same cpu/graphics card com […]
Show full quote

Strangely, my socket 5 (Triton chipset) has faster PCI slots than my SiS530 SS7. So for example, the same cpu/graphics card combo scores much higher on the socket 5 in Speedsys Video memory speed and in Quake 640x480.
CPU: POD200MMX
Graphics: TNT2 M64
socket 5-
-Speedsys video 73544 KB/s
-Quake 640x480 15.2 fps
SS7-
-Speedsys video 37064 KB/s
-Quake 640x480 14.4 fps

Of course, the disadvantage is the socket 5 tops out at 200Mhz MMX while the SS7 can run the POD200MMX at 250Mhz, and can run K6 cpus up to 550Mhz.

If you use a standard Pentium 75 or Pentium 100, does the Socket 5 still out perform the SiS 530? By what percent and with what test criteria?

I've never tested a P100 in the SS7 board. But I've got a full range of results at 200Mhz. The SS7 board does win most tests at VGA while the Socket5 board wins many SVGA tests.
Tests won by the SS7 SiS530:
Chris3D 320x200 134.7 to 119.8
PCPBench 320x200 49.7 to 37.4
PCPBench 640x480 18.8 to 17.1
Wolfenstein3D 163.9 to 153.3
Doom 84.7 to 75.4
Quake 320x200 45.1 to 39.3
Quake 360x480 20.3 to 18.6
Duke3D 320x200 93.5 to 83
Duke3D 640x480 42.5 to 40.5
Duke3D 800x600 30.5 to 30.0
Descent2 320x200 (cockpit) 88 to 82
Descent2 320x400 (no cockpit) 41 to 37

Tests won by Triton Socket5:
3dbench 150.8 to 146.4
Chris3D 640x480 40.2 to 37.7
Quake 640x480 15.2 to 14.4
Descent2 640x400 (no cockpit) 30 to 27
Descent2 640x480 (cockpit) 34 to 31.5
Descent2 800x600 (no cockpit) 18.5 to 15.5

Tests tied:
Duke3D 1024x768 21 to 21

So anyways, the fact that the Triton board wins or ties most of the hi res benchmarks, where there's more likely to be cpu bottleneck, combined with the doubled Speedsys VGA memory speed, leads me to believe the chipset/PCI bus is much faster on the Intel Triton chipset.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
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Reply 9 of 41, by creepingnet

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For me, the rarity of mention is only because I have been retro-computing for almost sixteen-seventeenish years now, and I've had upwards of 50 computers pass through my hands in that time - a few XT's, a handful of 286, a lot of 386 and 486 hardware, and almost as many Pentium systems. EVERY Pentium I've had until I got that 1995 Gateway 2000 system last year has been a Socket 7, I mean every single one of them from the Gemstar motherboard I had in a GEM computer Products Compaq Deskpro 386 style case to the one I built out for my mom (which she still had many many years down the road), and then I got the Gateway and was shocked to find that Socket five got any real distribution.

I think possibly, for a time there circa late 1994-1996 - Socket 5 had it's day, but it was almost sharing a 50/50 split with the 80486 Socket 3 systems for popularity - most people with less money wanted to get online, so why not hop on down to the local Five Guys in College computer Shop and have them build you out a PC' Chips desktop in a Kingspao chassis with a cheap generic PSU and a Digital Readout to brag about the AMD 5x86 "Actually a 486 DX5" chip under the hood (and tell all of your friend's it's a Pentium 133 while your at it, they don't need to know it's not a Pentium). I would think in 17 years I would have seen at least one other Socket 5 but I have not - now Socket 4? I've had 2 of those cross my path (A Pentium 60, and a Pentium 66 - both were very unstable systems, I'd take a 486 DX4-100 over one of those any day).

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Reply 10 of 41, by vetz

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creepingnet wrote:

For me, the rarity of mention is only because I have been retro-computing for almost sixteen-seventeenish years now, and I've had upwards of 50 computers pass through my hands in that time - a few XT's, a handful of 286, a lot of 386 and 486 hardware, and almost as many Pentium systems. EVERY Pentium I've had until I got that 1995 Gateway 2000 system last year has been a Socket 7, I mean every single one of them from the Gemstar motherboard I had in a GEM computer Products Compaq Deskpro 386 style case to the one I built out for my mom (which she still had many many years down the road), and then I got the Gateway and was shocked to find that Socket five got any real distribution.

I think possibly, for a time there circa late 1994-1996 - Socket 5 had it's day, but it was almost sharing a 50/50 split with the 80486 Socket 3 systems for popularity - most people with less money wanted to get online, so why not hop on down to the local Five Guys in College computer Shop and have them build you out a PC' Chips desktop in a Kingspao chassis with a cheap generic PSU and a Digital Readout to brag about the AMD 5x86 "Actually a 486 DX5" chip under the hood (and tell all of your friend's it's a Pentium 133 while your at it, they don't need to know it's not a Pentium). I would think in 17 years I would have seen at least one other Socket 5 but I have not - now Socket 4? I've had 2 of those cross my path (A Pentium 60, and a Pentium 66 - both were very unstable systems, I'd take a 486 DX4-100 over one of those any day).

The socket 4 and 5 systems cost an arm and a leg as well back then. It was highend!

I have a Socket 4 system (Intel motherboard and chipset) and I find it more stable and easy to work with that my Socket 3 builds.

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Reply 11 of 41, by jade_angel

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Socket 4 was apparently pretty variable. It has all the hallmarks of a point-zero revision - a lot of things work, but the edge and corner cases are still hairy in a major way. The Socket 3 platforms were more mature, but also had more low-quality and knockoff components around, and there were the problems of point-zero-rev PCI implementations and the fact that VLB was never anything but hairiferous, while EISA was rare and expensive and ISA was showing its age. So, you had the choice between teething-problem-ridden Socket 4, or crappy-parts-ridden Socket 3.

Solid examples of both existed, of course, and those are the machines that tend to be better remembered these days. Socket 5 had fewer teething troubles, but by the time it had started to catch on, and low-end Pentiums became cheap enough to displace the 486 in new sales, Socket 7 was pretty much ready to go, and it was backward compatible, so there was pretty much no reason to keep making Socket 5 boards once Socket 7 was available. So, it just had a really short day in the sun, while Socket 3 hung on for a long time as the cheap option.

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Reply 12 of 41, by j^aws

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For me, it's really not about sockets, nor boards, nor CPUs - it's about matching a scalable, unlocked CPU with a capable board that has a wide range of FSB options. So far, the Socket 5 platform just misses the mark, but I 'd still rank it higher than Socket 3 and Super Socket 7.

I've got a Socket 5 Pentium POD200MMX that can clock as low as 16MHz (1x multi, 16MHz FSB) upto 240MHz (3x multi, 80MHz FSB). And it has a very smooth speed range from a slow 286 to a fast Pentium using various methods: Turbo-switch, FSB, multipliers and cache disabling.

Reply 13 of 41, by Tetrium

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I've seen a couple hundreds of AT systems and s4 and s5 seemed to be roughly equally uncommon. Even s3 PCI seemed to be more common (though still s3 PCI was much more uncommon compared to s7 AT systems).
s5 was quickly replaced by s7 afaict.

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Reply 14 of 41, by senrew

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Scalability isn't so much a concern when I look at putting together a machine, as much as nostalgic period-correctness. I have almost all the parts I need to recreate that original Packard Bell I had spec-wise.

For sake of easy case supply...were there ever any ATX socket 5 boards?

Halcyon: PC Chips M525, P100, 64MB, Millenium 1, Voodoo1, AWE64, DVD, Win95B

Reply 15 of 41, by vetz

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Tetrium wrote:

s5 was quickly replaced by s7 afaict.

Yes, that's correct. Socket 5 really existed in the 1994 to 1995 period. When the Pentium 75-90 and 100 was released. When the Pentium 120 and 133 came out in March/June 1995, Intel had already released their 430FX chipset. There were some motherboards with the 430FX chipset which were branded socket 5 and only had a 2x multiplier, but these were quickly replaced by later models, most branded Socket 7 to take advantage of the new line of Pentium CPUs from Intel. (There were actually a small timeframe were early revisions of popular Socket 7 boards were named Socket 5, see here: http://www.thg.ru/howto/20010212/print.html)

For ASUS's part, you can read from my review:

This is ASUS's first 430FX board released Jan/Feb of 1995. It was mainly intended to support the new 120mhz (27th of March) and 133mhz (1st of June) Pentiums from Intel at that time, which is why you only have a maximum multiplier of 2.0x. It was released in three different versions, one with 256kb async DIP cache, one with 512kb async DIP (my board) and one version with 256kb pipeline burst cache hardwired to the board. From what I've found online this board was discontinued after only 6 months on the marked as the new P55TP4, P55TP4XE and P55TP4N took over. The new series had the same chipset, but supported higher multipliers and the new ASUS Media Bus.

So bascially Socket 5 was dead by summer of 1995.

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Reply 16 of 41, by vetz

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senrew wrote:

For sake of easy case supply...were there ever any ATX socket 5 boards?

Nope, a 430FX board was the first, it was branded Socket 7:
http://www.thg.ru/mainboard/intel_motherboard … nshots_6_1.html
Article: http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/498- … -badaxe.html#s7

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Reply 17 of 41, by senrew

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That's what I figured. I've got a Socket 7 board for my later p200mmx machine recreation. Guess that'll have to pull double duty until I can find an AT case to even start with an older machine.

Well, either that or try to find an OEM machine with the right parts.

Halcyon: PC Chips M525, P100, 64MB, Millenium 1, Voodoo1, AWE64, DVD, Win95B

Reply 18 of 41, by clueless1

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vetz wrote:
Nope, a 430FX board was the first, it was branded Socket 7: http://www.thg.ru/mainboard/intel_motherboard … nshots_6_1.html Arti […]
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senrew wrote:

For sake of easy case supply...were there ever any ATX socket 5 boards?

Nope, a 430FX board was the first, it was branded Socket 7:
http://www.thg.ru/mainboard/intel_motherboard … nshots_6_1.html
Article: http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/498- … -badaxe.html#s7

My Packard Bell uses the 430FX Triton chipset and has a socket 5. It's also got an AT power supply. I guess that means Packard Bell broke the spec when they designed it?

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 19 of 41, by senrew

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/PACKARD-BELL-LEGEND-4 … acAAOSw8gVX4DlT

This is my exact original machine model, even seems to be bone stock, which is preferred. Just with it wasn't $120 shipped...

Halcyon: PC Chips M525, P100, 64MB, Millenium 1, Voodoo1, AWE64, DVD, Win95B