VOGONS


First post, by bluejeans

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They seem to almost always have built-in windows drivers, and things like the caps are maybe higher quality? (never had a proprietary system fail on me, but 2 aged generic ones have). The main con to me is not being able to put just any cpu in, but an old hp with a slot one accepted a celeron 300 instead of the p2-350 it came with, though there's almost never an option for disabling cache etc.

Reply 1 of 15, by Rhuwyn

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So, to me it's purely an individual decision. It just depends on what you do. Ultimately, the biggest difference from a functionality perspective is the bios options you have in a custom machine as well as the ability to overclock. Generally speaking you can still stick in whatever video card will fit or CPU that is supported by the chipset.

Generally speaking performance will be very close, assuming the CPU, the memory, the videocard, and whatever other components are relevant for the test being run are the same.

In some cases propritary systems might have got through more design QA, but that's not always the case. Also, if the parts are readily available and there is lots of stock for a proprietary system chances are you can get them for a deal because no one can use them but you. On the other hand, if parts are scarce you might have a rough time finding replacement motherboards in particular and you might have to pay a premium for it given that it's the only one that will fit. But, once again everything depends on supply and demand. You will always be able to buy a OEM system for peanuts compared to a custom system, or even just the indvidual parts for a custom system.

Reply 2 of 15, by Qjimbo

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A big pro for me with my Compaq PC is that if I need to find a driver or BIOS update I can just search on google "driver site:ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq" since all the compaq drivers are still online on HPs FTP, at least at the moment.

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Reply 3 of 15, by Deksor

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How does that FTP server actualy "work" ? I'm quite interested with this one but I can't figure out how did they organize their stuff 🙁

Trying to identify old hardware ? Visit The retro web - Project's thread The Retro Web project - a stason.org/TH99 alternative

Reply 4 of 15, by leileilol

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Pros:
Presentation and cute case with the appropriate case badges/stickers
Discounts

Cons:
Non-standard power supplies
Sometimes non-standard motherboard designs
Stripped BIOS features
Factory-installed crapware

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long live PCem

Reply 5 of 15, by creepingnet

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PROS

- sometimes board level optimizations that make them amazing, my old IBM PC 330 100DX4 486 box was like that, it could even boot off ANY drive in the system like it had SATA, and it performed more like a Pentium 100 on the stock Intel DX4-100 with a lot of RAM.

- Proper thermal subsystem for the hardware, everything is exactly in the best place it can be for thermal I/O - this becomes a big deal on the Pentium III and higher systems.

- If you have the matching hardware things feel just a little more "offical" - nothing felt more official than that PC-330 with a G40 monitor with digital controls, IBM Win95/98 keyboard with palm wrest, and a geunuine IBM PS/2 scroll mouse.

- Sometimes the company STILL has all the support documents and files for it. Compaq, Dell, some HP, and some IBM Systems are extremely well supported and documented online still, compared to perusing TH-99 for jumper settings, maxiumum RAM/L1/L2/CPU Type and so on.

CONS

- Underpowered and proprietary power supplies. Usually have about 65-200 Watts at most, verses as much as 350 watts for 8088-80486 era systems, and above 400 watts for anything after if you run a lot of crap like I do. Certain brands like Dell, HP, and Compaq had proprietary PSU that would be difficult (Compaq Deskpro 8086/286/386) to impossible (IBM PS/2 series) to find replacements for which means you'd need to delve into the world of electronics and power supply repair to actually continue to use the computer if it burned out (assuming the problem does not involve rewinding a transformer).

- Tiny cases, some are so small they have bad cooling, others are hard to find space for more than one hard disk and one floppy drive in, some require extra mounting hardware that may not be in the case because the option for it was not installed when it was originally built.

- Proprietary Cases - Can't replace or upgrade the motherboard, can't fit another type of PSU in it (they often go hand in hand), sometimes devices like the IBM PS/2 systems are totally special to that genre of IBM Compatible.

- Limited upgrades, typically they picked 3-4 compatible CPU at most, and a handful of memory configurations with a lower than usual ceiling (ie 32MB instead of 64MB on a 486).

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Reply 6 of 15, by BSA Starfire

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Deksor wrote:

How does that FTP server actualy "work" ? I'm quite interested with this one but I can't figure out how did they organize their stuff 🙁

I'd be interested to know that as well as I have never found the proper compaq drivers for my media GX Presario 2232.

286 20MHz,1MB RAM,Trident 8900B 1MB, Conner CFA-170A.SB 1350B
386SX 33MHz,ULSI 387,4MB Ram,OAK OTI077 1MB. Seagate ST1144A, MS WSS audio
Amstrad PC 9486i, DX/2 66, 16 MB RAM, Cirrus SVGA,Win 95,SB 16
Cyrix MII 333,128MB,SiS 6326 H0 rev,ESS 1869,Win ME

Reply 7 of 15, by Deksor

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I've got a presario with a Cyrix (the 2230 I think) myself but I kept the stock installation on it. I could copy it for you if you want so you'll have the drivers. The windows installation is in french though. Last time I powered that computer a few month ago it was still working flawlessly so it should still be okay

Trying to identify old hardware ? Visit The retro web - Project's thread The Retro Web project - a stason.org/TH99 alternative

Reply 8 of 15, by jheronimus

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I don't like proprietary systems because for me that means that you also need original monitor, mouse and keyboard (or at least something under the same brand). Yep, I'm kind of anal about that 😀

That being said, "branded" machines are usually the easiest way to get a nice slim desktop case if you like that sort of thing.

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Reply 9 of 15, by PhilsComputerLab

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I only have a few OEM motherboards, but they all work great. Acer 486, Acer Socket 370, Dell Socket 370 are some examples.

The Dell 370 requires a little PSU adapter, but that was easy to obtain from eBay USA. The locked down BIOS doesn't worry me as I usually just load BIOS defaults and I'm happy.

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Reply 10 of 15, by PTherapist

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I turned an old "DigiPoS Power PoS" ePoS system (the white/beige version) into a retro gaming system. It was originally designed to function simply as a shop till and now plays DOS & 1990s/2000s Windows games. I kept the barcode scanner & custom till keyboard + card reader, but once the novelty of logging onto windows by swiping a credit card or scanning a barcode wears off, they have very little use. 🤣

It's a totally proprietary design, custom motherboard with a Tualatin Celeron 1.2GHz, with an external PSU. There is no chance of upgrading the motherboard beyond what it currently is and even if I could replace the CPU (not sure if it's soldered or not), cooling a faster/hotter CPU would be a nightmare due to the laptop style custom heatsink/fans setup which are designed to transfer heat to the side vents.

The main pro of a system like this is it's extremely small design, it originally came with a 12" 4:3 LCD Monitor so even a 15" monitor is bigger than the PC itself.

However the small design is also one of the major cons - there is a limited amount of expansion slots inside and a limited amount of space to fit large cards. I would have liked to put my AWE64 card in there, but the card was simply too big to fit the case. It handles regular sized cards just fine, however. Also only has 1 RAM slot for SODIMM PC133 which limits upgrade potential, I stuck a single 512MB stick in there.

Another major con, if this thing ever breaks down I'm betting there is practically zero chance of finding replacement parts. I have 2 of these systems and I thought I'd killed 1 of them a few months back - turns out I'd simply just unseated the RAM when putting it back together, so all is well.

I have several other proprietary systems - a DELL OptiPlex 425s/L Socket 3 PC, Digital Venturis 575 Socket 5 PC & a DELL OptiPlex GX1 Slot 1 PC. Nice systems, but nowhere near as compact as my DigiPoS.

Reply 11 of 15, by sf78

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I have a few ICL 486 (fat) pizza boxes and they are quite good as they all have integrated PS/2 ports and decent Cirrus Logic graphics chips integrated on the mainboard, so no need to install any additional cards or drivers for those. The downside is the front bezel that either does, or does not support CD-ROM or other drivers to be fitted. This goes to pretty much any old pizza box though, including the limited space inside the computer. As I mostly upgrade them with only a sound card any lack of space or limited upgrade possibilities haven't been an issue to me.

Reply 12 of 15, by KCompRoom2000

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Here are my pros and cons based on my growing experience of using and working on name-brand computers.

PROS:
- Since most OEM desktops have mostly everything built into the motherboard, It can be pretty easy to find drivers for them on the manufacturer's site; On most generic systems where the motherboard is designed to use independent video/audio/network cards, your best bet is to either pull out as many components as you can and look for model numbers or use a hardware profiler like AIDA16 to see what they're identified as, then look for the individual drivers for your parts.

- Easy to find replacement parts (depending on the type of system, and how many models have been made around its specification) - When it comes to finding parts for Dell Optiplex and some Dimension desktops, most of the common components (such as the motherboard, power supply, and even the case and I/O boards) are usually interchangeable between certain models from their generation so they're the easiest to come by out of many OEM systems from that time period.

- Interesting case designs on some aspects - examples include the Presario 2200's black case, Multi-colored cases on Apple computers, and Dell cases that are easy to open.

- Some systems have a Windows COA label on the case, which makes it easier to re-install the original version of Windows when using an OEM Installation CD.

CONS:
- Expansion cards pulled out of certain OEM systems can differ from the manufacturer's intended specification - Which means that for example you might not be able to use ATI Drivers on an ATI Rage 128 video card that was pulled out of a Dell Dimension desktop.

- Some systems have specific requirements for CPU/RAM/NIC upgrades - Most OEM motherboards may not allow using CPUs that don't match the chipset's intended specification, Some systems are very picky about RAM modules, and let's not forget that most laptops (specifically Lenovo/IBM, Toshiba, HP and Compaq) don't support using off-brand Wi-Fi Card upgrades.

- Matching accessories can be hard to come by (for those who want the vibe of being authentic) - I'm using my Dell Dimension 4300S setup as an example for this part, It was difficult to find the matching speakers and monitor, the only places I've found the matching harmon/kardon Dell speakers at were thrift stores, Specifically I got the first pair at Heart & Home at Bellevue, Once those died I settled for Logitech speakers until I found another pair at RE-PC; As for the monitor, I've had a hard time finding a matching Black Dell CRT Monitor for sale but I've bought one at Goodwill a few years ago, those aren't easy to find anymore. 😢

Reply 13 of 15, by NamelessPlayer

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Pros:
-Sensible board and cable layout on the better ones; easy to service, no wiring spaghetti mess inside. Sometimes you can just pull the entire motherboard and PCI slots right out the back, sometimes the motherboard tray comes down on the side panel like a drawbridge.
-They're easier to look up on the Internet in case you need to know anything, like common problems, points of failure, and solutions thereof.

Cons:
-I HOPE YOU LIKE PROPRIETARY PARTS, BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO FIND A LOT OF THEM! And if you need to replace them, well, sorry about your wallet - IF you can find replacements!
-PSUs are often underpowered, inefficient and space-heating compared to modern designs, and also proprietary to boot. Need to replace a Power Mac G4 MDD power supply? Better find a way to mount a 350W+ FlexATX one in place of the old one, as most other form factors just take up way too much space to fit inside! And even then, you get to deal with the infamous fan noise on form factors that small...
-Speaking of matching accessories, most of them at least use standard ports that make substitutes usable, but then you get weirdness like the Apple Display Connector and the smaller TRS jack for the Apple Pro Speakers. Oh, and if you ATX-mod a Power Mac for any reason, ATX PSUs lack the 25V rail to drive ADC displays. Have fun!
-If you're replacing Wi-Fi NICs or MXM GPUs in a laptop, watch out for pesky BIOS whitelists! That goes double for business-class models.

Reply 14 of 15, by chinny22

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Pros's
Early machines have ps2 long before generic did.
Solid base to build from, what proprietary loose in tweaking they make up for with stability.
Easier to find, both the actual hardware and drivers/documentation.
the negative hype (keeps prices down)

Con's
Non business PC's. A lot of HP, Dell, PC's aimed at the home market ARE underpowered and over restrictive.
Drivers, as these older systems disappear from their web pages drivers are becoming harder to find.
Lack of bios options, (if you like to overclock, non issue if you don't)
OEM'ism....like racism against OEM systems, always at least someone will make a comment.

Re the Compaq FTP site, finding anything is 1/2 the challenge! but doesn't it feel good to finally find that long lost firmware update after looking at 100's of txt files 😜

Reply 15 of 15, by Cyberdyne

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Only propiertary system that i have is an Compaq 6000 series 200MMX, and it is just amazing.
But all other propertary systems i have sold or thrown away.
Oh and one small 486 motherboard is in an small DVD player case.

I am aroused about any X86 motherboard that has full functional ISA slot. I think i have problem. Not really into that original (Turbo) XT,286,386 and CGA/EGA stuff. So just a DOS nut.
PS. If I upload RAR, it is a 16-bit DOS RAR Version 2.50.