VOGONS


Do I need an old keyboard?

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First post, by koverhbarc

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I can't be the first to notice this, but some keyboards don't feel very good for DOS gaming - mine works actually better in NTVDM than pure DOS (or DOSBox). Of course a PS/2 interface is necessary, but if there anything else to look for in a keyboard for DOS gaming?

Is a new high-end 'mechanical' keyboard the better choice? An old mechanical keyboard? Or simply any old keyboard that's not too beat up?

I assume any keyboard adqueately responsive for gaming will also be fine for general use, so I don't worry about that separately. Frankly I've never met a desktop PC keyboard that didn't seem OK for general typing.

If we're discussing keyboards, we may as well mention mice too. The mouse is less important for DOS games than the keyboard, but it still is needed often. Mice seem to be more consistent than keyboards, except that the USB interface is annoying and a frequent source of responsiveness problems. PS/2 only _would_ be the preferred solution.

Reply 1 of 34, by DOS-623

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Most people I know use (and love!) the IBM Model M. While it can be very, very expensive, it is a very great sounding and feeling keyboard. Perfect fit for DOS.

Here's a wonderful buyer's guide by rogueamp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae-8GdSJTX8

Reply 3 of 34, by NamelessPlayer

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Use what feels best to you, though it's worth noting that certain vintage PS/2 keyboards like IBM Model F/ATs and BTC 5339s support full-fledged NKRO instead of the 2KRO limitations of the IBM Model M and pretty much every rubber dome board.

Despite this, I get by fine on old Model Ms and still use one on my main system, though I sometimes miss being able to use Windows key shortcuts. It helps that they're common enough to find in thrift stores for dirt cheap. (I even found a tenkeyless Space Saver that way, much to the envy of many Geekhackers.)

As for mice, USB feels noticeably better, especially since I haven't found a way to overclock the PS/2 mouse port in Win9x, only NT/2000/XP. However, there are also times when USB mice just don't work, such as the Windows 98 setup process, and simply sticking to PS/2 makes software compatibility much easier.

For that, you might as well grab one of the trusty Microsoft Wheel Mouse Opticals, or better yet, an Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 for the thumb buttons; these have the MLT04 sensor that some people still swear by to this day (and go through the trouble of overclocking their USB ports to get the most out of), and while 400 DPI is rather insensitive for today's high resolutions, it's more than tolerable at the lower resolutions you'd be running for a DOS gaming setup. More importantly, they're cheap, common to find even second-hand, and support PS/2 with a cheap passive adapter as well as USB. And of course, they're OPTICAL - no need to clean ball rollers!

Reply 4 of 34, by Eleanor1967

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NamelessPlayer wrote:

Despite this, I get by fine on old Model Ms and still use one on my main system, though I sometimes miss being able to use Windows key shortcuts. It helps that they're common enough to find in thrift stores for dirt cheap. (I even found a tenkeyless Space Saver that way, much to the envy of many Geekhackers.)

Atleast if you are using Windows, you can use the programm sharpkeys to easily remap some keys. I remaped my caps lock to left windows and the right control key to the menu buttons.

B2T: I just use whatever DIN or PS2 keyboard that feels good to use on my retro machines. They are cheap and you can get them anywhere. For me it is more about the looks of the keyboard, a modern usb keyboard would breakt the look for me.

Reply 5 of 34, by bristlehog

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I bought a Model M some time ago but ended up selling it. I can't stand the loud clicky noise, and lack of Windows button is somewhat clumsy, since I use Windows 98 much.

For now I'm sticking with a HP keyboard that came with Vectra VA 180DT model. It's quiet and has windows buttons. Moral is - you don't know if you'll like the loud click of mechanical keyboards, especially if you never used one before. But I have to admit that most people seem to like them.

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Reply 6 of 34, by Deksor

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the windows key can easily be replaced by the CRTL+ESC shortcut. However shortcuts needing the windows key won't work that way ...

I use my only model M on my main computer and I love it ^^

On my retro PCs, I only have cheap rubber dome keyboards. However, they are well made and they don't feel too mushy. Some of them that I've got in storage are really piece of crap though. To me you don't need a super expensive keyboard. All you need is a keyboard that feels right to you

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Reply 7 of 34, by oeuvre

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Agreed, find one you like. I use a Dell QuietKey RT7D5JTW on my main desktop for daily use and it's great. Feels like a lesser Model M of sorts. Model Ms are too loud for my likes and lack of windows key hurts.

IBM made some decent beige PS/2 keyboards that were rubber dome.... I have an IBM KB-8923 and it's a nice rubber dome board. HP C3758 is another worthy rubber dome to consider. And some Compaq rubber domes were good too.

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Reply 8 of 34, by creepingnet

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I now HAVE to use clicky keyboards now because I got D'Quairvains Tenosynovitus (basically, ripped the tendon sheath loose on my left hand thumb) and for some reason non-rubber dome keyboards with old-school full size keys like the Razor Black Widow I'm typing this on, and the NEC Alps Keyswitch keyboard on my 486 to the right (and my Tandy 1000 to my left) don't aggrivate my thumb as much as rubber dome keyboards do.

My vintage machines all use "of the period" keyboards for the most part, I have 3 clickeys, the Tandy keyboard (whicn is not that clicky), and the Razor. I picked out the Razor because the feel reminded me of my favorite keyboard of all time, the Northgate OmniKey 102.

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Reply 9 of 34, by synrgy87

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I like the DELL AT102W (or AT101) some come with windows keys some without( I have one of each), uses ALPS mechanical switches, you can get new style boards in PS/2 variants.

Personally I love noisy clicky keyboards. Not a fan of quiet spongy boards.

Reply 10 of 34, by Tetrium

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I prefer to use PS/2 keyboards. Personally I don't like the really old mechanical keyboards and prefer the somewhat softer more recent (like 12 year old or so?) keyboards to the really old (20+ year old) keyboards.
But I prefer real PS/2 keyboards as to prevent any weird compatibility issues. For the rest, it's all a matter of personal preference afaic 😀.

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Reply 11 of 34, by Tetrium

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luckybob wrote:

its 99% personal preference. I use a model M. Even on my main system.

This basically sums it up! 😁

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Reply 12 of 34, by Jade Falcon

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luckybob wrote:

its 99% personal preference.

This.
But i would go for a mechanical board for dos as you'll be typing more. But that's just me.

Reply 13 of 34, by NamelessPlayer

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Deksor wrote:

the windows key can easily be replaced by the CRTL+ESC shortcut. However shortcuts needing the windows key won't work that way ...

Yeah, that's the big problem right there. Convenient shortcuts like Win-L, Win-D and whatever I might program for moving windows around with DisplayFusion aren't exactly usable with Ctrl-Esc.

Eleanor1967 wrote:

Atleast if you are using Windows, you can use the programm sharpkeys to easily remap some keys. I remaped my caps lock to left windows and the right control key to the menu buttons.

I may have to consider this while I wait for my Kinesis Freestyle Edge to be delivered.

Sure, I have other keyboards that I could use with Windows keys, but I don't want to put up with the mushy crapfest that is my Logitech G15v1 or get screwed over with muscle memory on my DSI Modular Mac keyboard and its non-standard tenkeyless layout.

bristlehog wrote:

I bought a Model M some time ago but ended up selling it. I can't stand the loud clicky noise, and lack of Windows button is somewhat clumsy, since I use Windows 98 much.

For now I'm sticking with a HP keyboard that came with Vectra VA 180DT model. It's quiet and has windows buttons. Moral is - you don't know if you'll like the loud click of mechanical keyboards, especially if you never used one before. But I have to admit that most people seem to like them.

The first thing I need to emphasize is that not all mechanical keyboards are clicky and noisy. There are tactile-without-click options such as the Cherry MX Clear switch (which I greatly prefer to Browns but generally can't find in anything), and linear switches should be pretty quiet if you cushion the bottom of the stroke (assuming you can stand to type on linears; I certainly can't).

Most people aren't aware of mechanical boards outside of the Model M and the current Cherry MX-based offerings, though.

Reply 14 of 34, by koverhbarc

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I was specifically asking about a keyboard that feels 'right' _in games_. No lag in DOS (or in Windows for that matter), triggers and untriggers keys with the right amount of force, basically so you don't think about it while gaming. Are there newer keyboards that serve for that?

I don't especially like noisy keyboards either, but I do remember typing on an IBM felt OK (I don't remember if I played games on it). And to be honest, I have never used the Windows keys and don't like their presence - I disable them in XP.

Reply 15 of 34, by shamino

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I've never gotten accustomed to the Model M, I find myself clumsy with it. I do like a clicky mechanical keyboard though, just not that one. The keyboard I used through the 90s was an obscure Wang model which uses Alps switches. I think the Apple IIc used the same (no idea if genuine Alps but the same type at least). So basically all my computing prior to the modern era was on Alps switches, which is probably why I'm subconsciously attuned to them.
I finally acquired a keyboard identical to the one I had back then, but I think it needs new switches. I suppose wear is an issue to consider with old mechanicals. Buckling springs might be more robust with age than Alps switches, not sure but that's my impression.

One reason the Model M feels awkward to me is the length of the keystrokes, which I believe is inherently longer with buckling springs than on Alps. I think another problem I had is the wider gaps between the keys compared to what I was used to. But plenty of people are very comfortable with them, it's just a matter of what people are used to.
If you go mechanical then I think Alps vs buckling spring is a major difference dividing that world of keyboards. If you know that you do or don't like either of those types of switches then that's a good starting point. Both are available in quiet versions, but I haven't used them. I know with Alps there's quite a variety of different switch types, but I don't have experience with the variants.

Since there's so much personal preference involved, it might be a good idea to check in some thrift stores. They usually have piles of keyboards for dirt cheap, and you can see if you find anything that feels promising. Unfortunately nowadays you don't find many mechanical keyboards in those stores anymore, but you might get lucky. At minimum they still have lots of late 90s rubber dome PS/2 stuff. Pre-Win95 (no windows keys) is a rarer find at this point but it's worth a look.

Depending on the type of games involved, another point to consider is which keyboards allow more keys to be pressed simultaneously. I don't know which ones are particularly good or bad at that.

Reply 16 of 34, by NamelessPlayer

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Speaking of Wang boards, I've got a nice-feeling one with orange Omrons (they have ALPS-like stems) and an odd XT/AT protocol switch, but that board has the dishonor of dropping my keystrokes whenever I start typing at my usual pace. No other board - not even cheap rubber domes! - does that.

I'm sure I could fix that by replacing the keyboard controller, but then I'd have to design a custom controller just for an old keyboard.

Also speaking of ALPS-based boards, I find Dell AT101Ws to be common in thrift stores (in fact, I have several), but they're not ideal for gaming because their 2KRO layout fails on the S-D-Space combo. I'd probably like them a bit more if they were NKRO.

If there's one thing I want to know more about ALPS-wise, it's actually the variants of the Apple Extended Keyboard (II), since ADB keyboards aren't exactly common equipment, let alone mechanical ones. Some are reported to have NKRO, but nobody's done any serious testing to prove or debunk that.

Reply 18 of 34, by chinny22

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koverhbarc wrote:

I was specifically asking about a keyboard that feels 'right' _in games_. No lag in DOS (or in Windows for that matter), triggers and untriggers keys with the right amount of force, basically so you don't think about it while gaming. Are there newer keyboards that serve for that?

I don't especially like noisy keyboards either, but I do remember typing on an IBM felt OK (I don't remember if I played games on it). And to be honest, I have never used the Windows keys and don't like their presence - I disable them in XP.

Again this comes down to preference, what Feels right to you wont for say the Model M group.
For me thinking back to keyboards before Windows key came out. OEM keyboards from Dell, Compaq, Digital felt solid and were usually built pretty strong and lasted many more years in server rooms even after newer ones were going spare

Reply 19 of 34, by firage

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Besides the feel of the action and level of noise, neither of which I care for with most mechanical keyboards including my Model M, there's one major and two minor considerations:
1. A decent matrix, doesn't absolutely have to be NKRO. You can definitely already run into ghosting key inputs in single player games, but you're really boned when two players try to share a crap keyboard.
2. Windows keys can be a PITA for DOS games, actually worse under Windows than pure DOS.
3. Matching PS/2 or AT DIN-5 connectors with the system without adapters.

I use an old capacitive KeyTronic. It's the mushiest feel ever, but it's quiet and NKRO.

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