VOGONS


First post, by WildW

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Looking for some wisdom on the subject of PC joysticks for use in DOS / 9x / XP . . . this is another one of those "Is there a one size fits all?" kind of questions.

Back in the day I used to have a 4 button + 2 axis + throttle joystick that I used with DOS games like the Wing Commander series, Descent, that kinda stuff. All those features worked in DOS games.

Later on I had (and still have) a Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3D - plugs into a gameport and works in 9x with a driver, but isn't compatible with DOS games. Critically this joystick benefits from a 3rd axis by twisting the stick, e.g. I use it for rudder control in "flight sims" (i.e. Crimson Skies). Definitely a worthwhile feature.

So. . . . are there old-style DOS compatible joysticks with a third axis like this? And if so do any DOS games use them? Or do I just buy a good joystick for DOS and learn to live with swapping devices occasionally?

Reply 1 of 3, by RJDog

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The game port specification allows for up to four buttons and up to four analog axis; it sounds like the joystick you describe with four buttons, two axis and a throttle probably falls into this "three axis" type of setup (with the throttle being a third analog axis). The reason newer digital joysticks/gamepads don't work for DOS games is that they encode button presses into binary or serial data that has to be decoded, essentially using the gameport as kind of a serial/UART port... which means the need for a driver because every gamepad/joystick implements tbis differently. DOS games, on the other hand, expect joysticks/gamepads to conform to the 4-button/4-analog spec.

So, my suspicion is that such a joystick that you are looking for exists. Probably an older Thrustmaster. As for games, not sure, but probably flight sims...

Reply 2 of 3, by skitters

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Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pro had twist. Wikipedia mentions it being used for Mechwarrior 2 and Descent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder#3D_Pro
Some people have issues with incompatibility with certain gameports in DOS
Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pro and DOS compatibility

There was also the "Gamestick 3D PC" made by CH Products which allowed twist, unlike the regular Gamestick.
http://web.archive.org/web/20001215142300/htt … ar/gs3dpc.shtml
The description says it works with DOS.

There was both a gameport version and a USB version of the Gamestick 3D, but only the gameport version was described as working with DOS and Windows 95.

Reply 3 of 3, by NamelessPlayer

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The SideWinder 3D Pro is notable because Descent and MechWarrior 2's DOS releases supposed it in native digital mode - and for all the other games that didn't, the 3D Pro has an analog fallback mode that emulates both the Thrustmaster FCS and CH Flightstick Pro, with different tradeoffs (no throttle on FCS, can't press multiple buttons in CH mode because they chorded the four digital buttons for the hat switch).

Between that and the fact that the 3D Pro uses a camera sensor and LEDs to track all the analog axes instead of potentiometers prone to wear and spiking, it's a fairly well-regarded stick for DOS gaming.

However, the 3D Pro's digital mode also tends to act up if you're using it in Win9x on a much faster than period-appropriate PC. I've tried every iteration of that timing-hacked driver on my P4EE 3.2 GHz box, and NONE of them worked at all for my 3D Pro. Analog fallback modes work, but then you lose the base buttons and have to deal with the aforementioned tradeoffs.

The later Precision Pro (earlier non-USB-compatible versions of which say "3D Pro Plus" on the bottom) has a refined digital gameport mode that's less picky about faster systems, but removes the analog fallback mode entirely, being useless in DOS. Later gameport SideWinders are the same way; steer clear of 'em.

Also, important note about Thrustmaster hardware: most of it conforms to the analog gameport standard of four axes and four buttons, with all the additional functionality being handled through keyboard emulation. However, there were these Stickworks digital upgrade chips for the F-16 FLCS/F-22 Pro and F-16 TQS that would convert them into a digital gameport interface device, with much cleaner readings on the stick and throttle axes (because they're now being used as voltage dividers like a modern USB stick instead of being read in a resistive manner per IBM's cheap-ass gameport interface spec), all buttons, switches and rotaries being available as DirectInput controls, and 96 logical flags (twice that of the later HOTAS Cougar, funnily enough)... but at the total cost of DOS compatibility, so don't bother getting an upgraded set if DOS is what you want.

Honestly, though, if you have the space, I'd just drop the notion of twist sticks and go for full-on rudder pedals. It shouldn't be too hard to find a TM RCS/Elite pedal set, the original gameport CH Pro Pedals, or if you're really lucky, some gameport Simpeds. You can use them with pretty much any analog gameport joystick you desire, except those that already have a twist for obvious reasons (though there was an adapter to use Simpeds with the SideWinder 3D Pro, but good luck finding it).