Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Discussion about old PC hardware.

Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby c0keb0ttle » 2017-12-30 @ 16:30

I have a 486 using the MS-4137 motherboard.

It has been working fine with a CF adapter connected to the primary IDE channel on my VLB I/O card.

Now I've been trying to install a CD-ROM, and I want to use the secondary IDE channel because of space and cable issues, but I can't get it to work.

If I connect the CF card (Master) and CD-ROM (slave) to the primary IDE channel everything works fine, but I move the CD-ROM to the secondary channel it is not detected at all.

I think both channels are enabled with the jumpers on the VLB card, and I've even tried another VLB card with two channels but I can't get that one to work either.

Anyone know if some 486 mobos simply can't handle two IDE channels?
c0keb0ttle
Member
 
Posts: 171
Joined: 2016-10-23 @ 22:07

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby derSammler » 2017-12-30 @ 16:37

What OS? If DOS, which CD-ROM driver are you using? Did you try a different one? Maybe the one you're using doesn't scan the secondary port. The Oak CD-ROM driver is always a good option, it normally works with anything.
derSammler
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1467
Joined: 2017-4-14 @ 11:30
Location: Germany

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby c0keb0ttle » 2017-12-30 @ 16:53

DOS 6.22, and I've tried both VIDE-CDD and Oak CD1.sys. :-(
c0keb0ttle
Member
 
Posts: 171
Joined: 2016-10-23 @ 22:07

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby TheMobRules » 2017-12-30 @ 16:54

The BIOS in your PC needs to have support for dual IDE controllers in order to use the secondary IDE connector on the VLB card. A simple way to check this is by using the BIOS HDD "auto-detect" option: if only "C" and "D" drives are scanned, it means a single channel is supported, while dual channel support would show "C", "D", "E" and "F" being scanned.

Another option is to use one of those IDE cards that have their own BIOS with dual controller support.
TheMobRules
Member
 
Posts: 340
Joined: 2016-1-19 @ 23:29

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby c0keb0ttle » 2017-12-30 @ 17:03

I was afraid of that. The BIOS does indeed only show C and D under autodetect.

Any way of updating it? It's an AMIBIOS.
c0keb0ttle
Member
 
Posts: 171
Joined: 2016-10-23 @ 22:07

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby derSammler » 2017-12-30 @ 17:04

The BIOS in your PC needs to have support for dual IDE controllers in order to use the secondary IDE connector on the VLB card.

That's not correct in this case. For a CD-ROM to work, the BIOS doesn't need to support secondary IDE. That's only needed for hard disk drives, since only these are accessed through int 13h.

Is the CD-ROM jumpered as master/single drive? It may not work as slave when no master is present.
derSammler
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1467
Joined: 2017-4-14 @ 11:30
Location: Germany

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby c0keb0ttle » 2017-12-30 @ 17:20

It's jumpered as Master currently.

Some progress has been made:

1. I can get it to work with VIDE-CDD when connected to my ESS soundcard's IDE as tertiary channel (port IE8 and IRQ 12).
2. it does REACT to SOMETHING when connected to the secondary channel on the VLB card. Trying several CD drivers the light on the CD does light up and it makes some slight clicking noises, but the drivers all report no drives found.

Maybe an resources conflict? IRQ 15 is used by SOMETHING according to SYSCHK, and my guess was the secondary IDE as it should be, but who knows? And how can I check which port my secondary IDE actually uses?
c0keb0ttle
Member
 
Posts: 171
Joined: 2016-10-23 @ 22:07

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby derSammler » 2017-12-30 @ 17:34

IDE supports up to four controllers, their resources are normally fixed. Ports are 01F0, 0170, 01E8, and 0168.
derSammler
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1467
Joined: 2017-4-14 @ 11:30
Location: Germany

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby Jed118 » 2017-12-30 @ 17:55

They are extremely finnicky:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=57125

I've had nothing but problems with them - seems they don't play well with dual channels. Every one of them I've installed into a dual channel (Primary and Secondary IDE) yielded issues. I've resorted to using them as transfer media and for that purpose they work out very well.

*edit I should add that the 486 runs its CDROM off the soundcard - the Primary save is reserved for the CF card. The CDROM works well with the CF card in place, I was able to access the drive and run a game off it.
Jed118
Member
 
Posts: 293
Joined: 2015-2-03 @ 17:15

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby c0keb0ttle » 2017-12-30 @ 19:02

I also get the CDROM running fine off my soundcard, but I can't get it to work from the secondary IDE channel on any of my VLB cards. Running it as slave on the primary IDE works fine too.
c0keb0ttle
Member
 
Posts: 171
Joined: 2016-10-23 @ 22:07

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby .legaCy » 2017-12-30 @ 22:01

on my 486 dx4 100 build my vlb controller was a bit finicky with the cd-rom, i had to test with some drives that i had laying around until it was detected, however it only worked as slave on the same channel as my HD.
it wouldn't even post properly with the cd-rom being the master on the secondary channel.
since i got it running i stopped messing up with and i really don't know why it wouldn't work properly being the master.
User avatar
.legaCy
Member
 
Posts: 437
Joined: 2016-4-08 @ 23:11
Location: Brazil

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby Jed118 » 2018-1-03 @ 01:55

I'm ghosting some drives right now and I'd like to add the following trick I forgot but now recall:

Pull the jumper out entirely, see if that helps the situation. I had just now a WD 22500 drive that would not be seen by BIOS when a Quantum 7.6AT was in there (both were able to be detected separately) but when you took the jumper out of the WD and set the Quantum as master, the WD would work in slave mode. The reverse is also true - Make the WD the master, take the jumper (set no jumper) out of the Quantum and they'll appear in BIOS and work properly.

Seems to be a poorly implemented CSEL, or some drives just don't like each other. Both those drives work with a Fujitsu 8.4 gig as well as a 540Mb (Quantum) I had lying around.
Jed118
Member
 
Posts: 293
Joined: 2015-2-03 @ 17:15

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby Moogle! » 2018-1-03 @ 06:21

Some drives need to be in the correct orientation on the cable regardless of jumpers. HD at the end connector, CD in the middle.

Have you tried different cables? Those do go bad.
Moogle!
Member
 
Posts: 282
Joined: 2008-4-21 @ 01:03

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby derSammler » 2018-1-03 @ 10:52

Moogle! wrote:Some drives need to be in the correct orientation on the cable regardless of jumpers. HD at the end connector, CD in the middle.

If that happens, then you just made a big mistake by mixing cable select and fixed drive settings. Position only matters in a cable select environment. And cable select requires both drives set to CS and an IDE cable with master/slave ports (color-coded). Most people don't seem to be aware of that and using cable select wrongly by either using a color-coded IDE cable without setting devices to CS, or setting the devices to CS but using a standard IDE cable. That's not supposed to work.
derSammler
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1467
Joined: 2017-4-14 @ 11:30
Location: Germany

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby firage » 2018-1-03 @ 11:14

VLB being a 1992-1994 phenomenon and quickly dying out in 1995, several controllers don't yet support ATAPI for CD-ROM drives. The secondary connector usually has a separate ISA controller on my cards.

My own CD-ROM's always been hanging off one of my sound cards, though.
User avatar
firage
Oldbie
 
Posts: 1010
Joined: 2013-1-06 @ 21:43
Location: Finland

Re: Problems using secondary IDE channel on VLB cards with 486

Postby Malvineous » 2018-1-03 @ 12:01

Pretty sure IDE is just a "dumb" interface between the drive and the system, so controllers don't need to support ATAPI as they don't get involved with any actual communication, they just pass the bits along as fast as they can.

There's a dosdiags.zip floating around that includes a bunch of useful utils like HWInformer that will query the hardware directly and tell you what's there. My own experience was one of the IDE channels conflicting with the floppy controller (I/O port overlap) but moving it to be the 4th IDE channel fixed the problem. Can your VLB card be moved to the third or fourth channel? Do you have any other card (e.g. sound card with IDE) that might be putting resources in the way of the IDE2 channel? Presumably if you disable IDE2 then you should find IRQ15 shows up as free, and if not, that could well be the problem.
User avatar
Malvineous
Oldbie
 
Posts: 549
Joined: 2006-6-11 @ 02:24
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Return to General Old Hardware

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: anetanel, ninkeo, the_ultra_code and 16 guests