Super socket 7 and AGP cards

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Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Baoran » 2018-1-03 @ 16:54

I hear alot about super socket 7 motherboards having problems with AGP cards. What kind of problems there are exactly?
Is there some way I can make those problems to show up to test it?
Are there chipsets that have less problems than others or chipsets that have most problems with AGP cards?
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby leileilol » 2018-1-03 @ 19:11

VIA's only best with 3dfx cards. I learned that the hard way :( this is not fandom talking or any implication of "3dfx VooDoo Grafik Superiority". VIA SS7 + SBLive and ATI/NVidia do not mix.
Voodoo2s aren't 100mhz stock
Geforce256 isn't released as a beta on New Years '99 under the Quadro brand
386DX vs SX isn't about a missing FPU
DOS gaming isn't a bilinear 320x200 16:10
DOS PCs aren't better than the Macintosh
Old PCs aren't 'aesthetic'
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Baoran » 2018-1-03 @ 19:26

How about other chipsets?
Nobody knows what kind of problems there are exactly and how to test them?
I just want to know details of what exactly happens when you put an agp card in super socket 7 system and if there are differences in what happens with each chipset.
Last edited by Baoran on 2018-1-03 @ 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby leileilol » 2018-1-03 @ 19:28

I recall sound chirping in a lot of UnrealEngine games with the said combination... think of the single digit framerates and the very audible VVT!!! noise on each frame
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Voodoo2s aren't 100mhz stock
Geforce256 isn't released as a beta on New Years '99 under the Quadro brand
386DX vs SX isn't about a missing FPU
DOS gaming isn't a bilinear 320x200 16:10
DOS PCs aren't better than the Macintosh
Old PCs aren't 'aesthetic'
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby meljor » 2018-1-03 @ 19:28

I have a lot of super socket 7 boards and i don't really think it is that much of an issue. It was a big issue back in the day, but when using the latest agp drivers from both companies there are far less problems now. It is however an early implementation and it might not always be perfect with every card you put in it.

It is true that 3dfx cards are without any issues as they do not use the specific agp features, just the bandwidth of the bus.

Sometimes there are some strange things like for example my Asus p5a does not like one of my Asus Geforce2 Ti cards but runs absolutely fine with an Asus Geforce2GTS, a couple of other Geforce2 cards and also MX and Geforce3 is no problem. The Ti has lockups etc. while it runs fine on a 440bx board.

I have boards with mvp3 and Ali chipsets and my vote goes to Ali. It is in my opinion a bit faster and has less problems with agp cards. But also the Via boards are much better with late drivers and some people prefer them, so take your pick.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Katmai500 » 2018-1-03 @ 19:40

leileilol wrote:VIA's only best with 3dfx cards. I learned that the hard way :( this is not fandom talking or any implication of "3dfx VooDoo Grafik Superiority". VIA SS7 + SBLive and ATI/NVidia do not mix.


Does this same issue occur with an AWE64, or is it limited to the SBLive!? How about an AudioPCI 128?
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Baoran » 2018-1-03 @ 19:48

Do the problems only show up in windows or do you also have problems if you use super socket 7 system to play speed sensitive dos games?
Like for example you wanted to pair agp graphics card with voodoo 2 dos glide games.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby dr_st » 2018-1-03 @ 19:54

What exactly are the issues you experience with SBLive? I used to have one installed in my VIA-based SS7 board, and don't recall anything particularly terrible.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby meljor » 2018-1-03 @ 19:54

There is no ''specific'' problem. Just build it, run it, enjoy it and IF something doesn't work, deal with it then. There is no ''holy grail'' retro computer.

The super 7 system in my sig runs everything i throw at it.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Baoran » 2018-1-03 @ 20:21

I just need to choose what parts to use/get beforehand though. PCI graphics card would bring it's own problem having voodoo 2 and pci graphics card right next to each other. Finding AGP card that would not cause any problems and would have best possible compatibility with dos games might not be possible either. Also knowing if I should use one of the motherboards I already have or get a new one is another thing I have to decide.

Are VIA and Ali the only super socket 7 chipsets availlable?
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby meljor » 2018-1-03 @ 20:29

Ok, take a Matrox G200 or G400 AGP, never had a problem with them and have a very sharp image. Also work fine with dos games.

Voodoo2 with a pci card is no problem at all: almost every single pentium mmx system with a voodoo1 runs that way as most do not have a pci slot, voodoo2 works just as well. Even voodoo3 pci and voodoo2 works fine etc. etc.

SiS also had 100mhz boards and some did have agp also. But performance is usually slower. Which cpu are you using and what is the rest of the setup?
asus tx97-e, 233mmx, voodoo1, s3 virge ,sb16
asus p5a, k6-3+ @ 550mhz, voodoo2 12mb sli, gf2 gts, awe32
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Baoran » 2018-1-03 @ 20:45

I would have used a matrox card, but I saw here https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ that matrox cards don't have very good dos compatibility. With voodoo 2 I have a very stiff cable between the main graphics card and voodoo 2 card which makes it difficult to put it between cards that are right next to each other. Main purpose of making a super socket 7 system isn't to get maximum performance. It is mainly about being able to run speed sensitive games. I ordered recently one of those K6-III+ 400Mhz cpus from ebay to be able to use software to change multiplier.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby static- » 2018-1-03 @ 21:14

Are there combos other than super socket 7 + AMD K6 that allow you to use software to change multiplier, In particular, for downclocking speed sensitive games? I have a Slot 1 Asus P2B with PII 400MHz.. seems my only option is to toggle L1/L2 cache. Could a slotket be used with another processor to give more underclocking flexibility?
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Baoran » 2018-1-03 @ 21:53

Generally it requires both disabling cache and adjusting multiplier to make system correct speed for speed sensitive games and my experience disablin internal cache with p2 or p3 cpu makes system way too slow for any games I tried and disabling external cache has very little impact on speed. If you have unlocked multiplier in your P2 cpu you can slow it down but it isnt usually enough for most speed sensitive games.


static- wrote:Are there combos other than super socket 7 + AMD K6 that allow you to use software to change multiplier, In particular, for downclocking speed sensitive games? I have a Slot 1 Asus P2B with PII 400MHz.. seems my only option is to toggle L1/L2 cache. Could a slotket be used with another processor to give more underclocking flexibility?
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby meljor » 2018-1-03 @ 22:33

There are thousands of games, there will always be a couple that will not work or does not like certain hardware. For most games Matrox is fine, but it depends on what you want to play.

Do you have a specific motherboard in mind and a specific graphics card? I have a lot of ss7 boards and also many many agp cards so maybe i can do a quick and dirty setup and check if it works good.
I will not check dos compatibility, you have to go with what others say on that.


Yes, p2 can be clocked down by multiplier but not with software as far as i know. If you have the earlier p2 cpu with 66mhz fsb like a 333mhz i have it can be downclocked. Combined with the 440LX some had it come down to 2x 50fsb (440BX will not go lower as 60 or 66 fsb ).
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby dionb » 2018-1-04 @ 00:45

dr_st wrote:What exactly are the issues you experience with SBLive? I used to have one installed in my VIA-based SS7 board, and don't recall anything particularly terrible.

My best guess: it probably depends on the southbridge. The 686A was used on some of the last MVP3 boards, and although it was generally superior to the old 586B and 596A/B, it had the well-publicized PCI bus mastering issues with the Creative SBLive cards. Absolutely no idea what the current status of those issues is with whatever Windows 98 or XP drivers are available, but it might be something to bear in mind. Possibly leileilol is referring to experiences with 686A-based boards and you had one with an older southbridge.

ALi Aladdin V had something similar with early nVidia AGP chipsets (TNT series). There again it was supposedly mitigated in later drivers, but I don't know to what extent.

To answer the OP's question, as meljor says, SiS also had an AGPset, but it was slower - or rather: it was only really stable at 95MHz, 100MHz wasn't always attainable. Whether it counts as "Super Socket 7" without that is a matter of definitions.

Complete list of So7 AGP chipsets.
ALi
Aladdin V (100MHz FSB (officially, but good boards regularly OCd to 133MHz))

SiS
5591 (83MHz FSB (advertised), although sometimes 95MHz or 100MHz was acheived)

VIA
VP3 (66MHz FSB (officially) / 83MHz FSB (most actual motherboard implementations))
MVP3 (100MHz FSB)

All three vendors als had UMA architecture chipsets with integrated AGP graphics but no slot - the ALi Aladdin 7 (which is the one chipset I really, really regret getting my hands on - dual channel SDR-SDRAM to avoid the usual UMA memory bottleneck and an ArtX VGA core that would later go on to form the basis of ATi's Radeon family), SiS 530 and 540, and the Via MVP4 - all with 100MHz FSB support. The SiS 530 in particular was very popular in the low-end around 2000, but performed badly and was generally used on absolutely awful motherboards, giving it a reputation for unreliability that it didn't really deserve.

Personally I'd say I like the elegance of the Aladdin V the most if aiming for high performance, but in terms of memory support and general flexibility it's hard to beat the MVP3. I was using an MVP3-based system with K6-2 500 for a few years as my main system around ~2001. Ran Windows 98SE like a dream.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby The Serpent Rider » 2018-1-04 @ 02:37

If you have the earlier p2 cpu with 66mhz fsb like a 333mhz

333mhz is Deshutes core only, which is multiplier locked. Last Pentium II with unlocked multiplier was clocked at 300mhz.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby meljor » 2018-1-04 @ 11:07

The Serpent Rider wrote:
If you have the earlier p2 cpu with 66mhz fsb like a 333mhz

333mhz is Deshutes core only, which is multiplier locked. Last Pentium II with unlocked multiplier was clocked at 300mhz.


Most are perhaps but there are multiple reports of some deschutes beeing unlocked (lower multi's). From another thread:

SL2HE (266mhz Klamath) - Can be underclocked (No L2 Cache below 166mhz) (AdamP)
SL2HE (266Mhz Klamath) - Unlocked (Tetrium)
SL2KA (333mhz Deschutes) - Can be underclocked (No L2 cache below 200mhz though) (AdamP)
SL2QF (333Mhz Deschutes) - Unlocked (Tetrium)
SL2S7 (400Mhz Deschutes) - Unlocked (Tetrium)

SL2VY (300Mhz Deschutes) - Locked (Tetrium)
SL2S5 (333mhz Deschutes) - Locked (AdamP)
SL2U3 (350Mhz Deschutes) - Locked (Tetrium)
SL2U6 (400mhz Deschutes) - Locked (AdamP)

But i have to recheck, coud very well have been my 266 or 300 but i believe it was my 333mhz.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Baoran » 2018-1-04 @ 14:13

I have SL2HA Klamath 300Mhz that is unlocked.

meljor wrote:
Most are perhaps but there are multiple reports of some deschutes beeing unlocked (lower multi's). From another thread:

SL2HE (266mhz Klamath) - Can be underclocked (No L2 Cache below 166mhz) (AdamP)
SL2HE (266Mhz Klamath) - Unlocked (Tetrium)
SL2KA (333mhz Deschutes) - Can be underclocked (No L2 cache below 200mhz though) (AdamP)
SL2QF (333Mhz Deschutes) - Unlocked (Tetrium)
SL2S7 (400Mhz Deschutes) - Unlocked (Tetrium)

SL2VY (300Mhz Deschutes) - Locked (Tetrium)
SL2S5 (333mhz Deschutes) - Locked (AdamP)
SL2U3 (350Mhz Deschutes) - Locked (Tetrium)
SL2U6 (400mhz Deschutes) - Locked (AdamP)

But i have to recheck, coud very well have been my 266 or 300 but i believe it was my 333mhz.
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Re: Super socket 7 and AGP cards

Postby Baoran » 2018-1-06 @ 11:17

After going through my graphics cards, I found asus agp-v3800 magic/16Mb. It is based on TNT2 M64 which has good compatibility with dos. There also exists PCI version of TNT2 M64, so I was wondering does it use the AGP features that causes problems with super socket 7 or would it work same as PCI version of TNT2 M64?
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