VOGONS


A couple of retros I'm working on.

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Reply 100 of 452, by jaZz_KCS

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Yeah, normally those cables are connected with some form of latch mechanism (like the cable is most likely connected on the main board side.) That's why they are called ZIF (Zero Insertion Force). But sometimes they don't have a latch but are just squeezed into very thin connectors like here, and they actually take a lot of "insertion force" to either connect or rip out 😜 Don't worry, they sit very tight, but they are detachable and reattachable. Some 1/3rd drives have these "squeeze" connectors, some have a latch.

If the pinout is indeed the same (I think it's standard ZIF), any standard super slim-line with ZIF connector should fit in there. Take care of the original cable, as you will need it.

Reply 101 of 452, by Vipersan

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..well fwiw ..I got it off ..but hard to see how one would describe the edge connector as ZIF ..since it would require some force to reinsert it I think ..
🤣

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Reply 102 of 452, by jaZz_KCS

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Well yeah, the latch version doesn't need any insertion force, whereas these squeeze type connectors sit VERY tight.

Have a look out for maybe a little newer super slim-drive that is not belt-driven. IIRC, only the really old 1/3rds from around 1993-1994 still had belts, since the direct drive motors first had to get smaller to be viable 😁

Reply 103 of 452, by Vipersan

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Searching Ebay doesn't seem to get results for a suitable ultra slim ..but you mentioned they are usually to be found inside usb floppies ?
Perhaps that would be my best route to go down ..IF I knew which units had suitable drives inside ?
can you advise some more JZ
?

Reply 104 of 452, by jaZz_KCS

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Here are some examples of drives that look as they would fit (some with latch mechanism, some without, doesn't matter).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitsumi-Slim-1-44MB- … lQAAOSwOAZZf6AT ("Manufacturer refurbished") (so even if belt-driven its got a new belt)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEC-FD3238T-Slim-Bla … N4AAOSwHwZaC0te (Some have the connector the other way around, but you would just either twist your cable (if the pinout orientation would fit, if you catch what I mean) or use sand paper to carefully open up the contact on the other side of the cable IF your cable has them only open at one side, and only if needed)

Regarding USB-floppy drives: Yes that is correct. I have opened up one that I bought that looked like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BYTECC-BT-144-Slim-B … pMAAOSwVDZaAps1

...and inside I found a TEAC like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teac-FD-05HG-1-44MB- … bgAAOSwImRYXceq (which I used to replace my internal floppy drive in an 1994 Compaq Laptop.)

It's kinda hard/impossible to find an internal one with beige bezel (what you would need.). So I would suggest getting a bezel-less one, or USB-floppy, and try to attach/use you original Toshiba bezel.

Last edited by jaZz_KCS on 2018-01-19, 11:57. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 105 of 452, by Vipersan

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cheers buddy ..
plenty to go at there ..
A searching I shall goooooo.....
😉

..they do seem plentiful in the US ..
not so much here..
for example the mitsumi is cheap enough ..but 50 dollars wanted to ship it ..
Eeeeek!!
I may well be asking you to help in this regard..If I cant find a UK solution..
🤣

Last edited by Vipersan on 2018-01-19, 11:59. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 106 of 452, by jaZz_KCS

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Some models have the connector the otherway around. Sometimes therefore you need to reorientate your cable OR open up the coppe on the other side of the connector, as you need the cable to be the "other way around", if you get what I mean. But that differs from model to model... At least you have the original cable so we somehow can make any model work...

Reply 107 of 452, by Vipersan

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My 2x NEC D27C1024D chips arrived today ..
Claimed erased/blanked but both were attempted to flash the modified bios..
both failed at around 30% ..
12.5v VPP - 100 us delay - VDD 6.25v ..
So out came the UV eraser ..and both chips subjected to 20 mins UV ..
This time both chips appeared to program and verify ..
No time to test them tonight ..but hopefully over the weekend ??
😉

Reply 108 of 452, by Vipersan

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Tested the chips this morning ..
neither will boot the 5200.
I do not believe it is the bios firmware ..but rather the chips at fault..
I erased one of them and flashed with a copy of my own bios ..thus cloning it..
This cloned bios will not boot either yet the original does..
All chips were flashed and the verified ..and passed..
The only other thing I can think of is that I have to ignore the chip IDs to use them in my TL866 ..
I wonder if somehow the bios actually checks the chip ID before booting it ..and if it fails ...refuses to boot ????
I am certainly no expert in this regard.
I've since ordered 5x more chips for 5 dollars from AliExpress ..so at least 20 days to get here..
These chips are exactly the same number as the original bios ..made by Atmel AM27C1024-205DC
Wheras the 2 I recently purchased were NEC D27C1024D-15
Ian ..?? ..could this small difference in chip type be an issue ?
Or could it be because my programmer does no recognise the chip ID and has to be ignored during read/write operations ??
I'm at a loss here
rgds
VS

Reply 109 of 452, by Hamby

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Excuse me for butting in (but...)

I just purchased a T5200/100 from ebay yesterday. I've been wanting one since seeing "Medicine Man" (before that I've been wanting a gas-plasma Compaq Portable III since 1992... but it's only EGA)

The screen seems intact, and in pix provided by the seller, it displays the dead cmos error message, but also the settings screen. I gather the seller knows even less than I do, as he suggested that it needed a new battery since it wouldn't run without being plugged in to power.

Forgive my ignorance, but I have several (many!) questions; I really do want to get this machine working and actually use it.
I don't have an eprom burner, but I do want to make it able to boot from any drive; 100mb is just too small, even if the current drive was brand new.
Could someone recommend an inexpensive (cheap!) burner that would do the job of burning the modified Award bios? Or is there some other way to get a boot rom onto a chip?

my first thought is to use an ISA network adapter with a boot rom and try to boot from that; I've always been fascinated by that empty socket on my network cards, so it would be doubly cool to be able to boot using a rom in that socket. Again, I'd have to somehow be able to burn it, first. And yes, I want a network card in my T5200. But if I'm going to burn a rom anyway, shouldn't I just go ahead and fix the BIOS? I know nothing about burning eproms, but I am interested in learning, if the learning is not too expensive. I already paid too much for the T5200 (not more than it's worth to me, just more than I can afford, 🤣) .

I have two 6gb drives formatted (3 FAT partitions) identically with DOS 6.22 / WFW 3.11 on them; one is in my K6-300 system (overkill, I know) which I have on my network, the other I would love to be able to put into the T5200. I've read comments about using the rom from a Promise EIDE FloppyMax controller in a network card in order to use a bootable hard drive. Would this work?

I also want to put a sound card into the T5200. I've read messages about needing the 16 bit slot for a soundblaster... but I have an 8 bit soundblaster. I was planning on putting it in the 8 bit slot. Would there be a problem with this?

Other comments/questions. If one were to connect a CF drive, could one not cut a slot in the rear metal cover where the internal modem would go, and mount it there? One could simply reach behind the machine, then.

What is the pinout of the proprietary (modem) slot on the T5200? Would it be possible to build an adapter that would allow an ISA slot to communicate through it? That would allow a 3rd ISA card, although a 3rd card couldn't have its backplate, and any plugs (serial, parallel, vga) would have to be routed out the aforementioned modem cover. But it might be useful for an XTIDE or floppy controller?

Speaking of floppies... what about connecting an LS-120 Superdisk drive to it? An internal LS-120 would hold about 120mb per disk, and connects via IDE. It supports floppy disks as well as its proprietary disks (I did a search on ebay, and a few are available). Or, possibly, a parallel port LS-120, which also would support floppies? The latter would allow for an internal drive plus the 120mb external storage, as well as the ability to use floppies.
If I could get a CF card reader or a network card working, I'm not particularly worried about a functional floppy drive, for myself.

Lastly... I wanted the T5200 for its gas-plasma display, it's expansion ports and its look. I've read about replacing the screen on a T3200SXC with a more modern 10.4" display... would it maybe possible to stick a baby AT, or microATX, or one of the raspberry pi x86 competitors, in the T5200 shell, and connect it to the gas plasma display? A riser card could possibly be used to give the baby AT ISA slots that would then expose their backplates out the side of the laptop. The microATX and the x86 sbc wouldn't really need expansion slots; they'd have USB and possibly SD ports, as well as built-in sound and maybe graphics support. The floppy could be replaced with a USB emulator, or its bay could just be covered with a blank plate. The SBC might even allow for an internal battery.
This last part is just me letting my imagination run. What I really am interested in, first and foremost, is getting it to boot from a hard drive or equivalent.

Reply 110 of 452, by Vipersan

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Hi Hamby ..congrats on aquiring one of these venerable old machines..
My first suggestion is to replace the RTC battery ..
you can adapt a standard AA lithium battery in a holder to do this job they are available on ebay ..
3.7volts
We are all learning as we go here ..but some are far more advanced than others.
From what I understand ..the 100mb Connor hard drive is living on borrowed time due to its age and method of construction.
BUT the standard bios only works with proprietory Connor hard drives ..
to fix this you will need to fit a modified bios ..
This was very kindly uploaded to the forum by Ian B ...who is probably our best hope for info as he understands them better than most and has done amazing mods to this old PC ..
search out his 5200 mod thread.
Toshiba T5200 mods and upgrades
If your floppy drive is working ..then you already have +1 on some of us ..
However Ian has also uploaded detailed instructions to make an adapter cable to allow a standard floppy drive to be used ..
Others have found a workaround using an adapter interface board.
Very large hard drives I suspect are not catered for ..so for now at least your limit may be 528mb with a modified bios..
allternatively you can also use an XTIDE card ..but these are not cheap ..and again ..you may need a modified bios to do this.
There is good info on Vogons regarding ..'the way forward' I would suggest doing some reading to get up to speed..
No doubt others will fill in any omissions or correct what I have said..and that is good..
regards
VS

Reply 111 of 452, by jaZz_KCS

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Hamby wrote:

Forgive my ignorance, but I have several (many!) questions; I really do want to get this machine working and actually use it.
I don't have an eprom burner, but I do want to make it able to boot from any drive; 100mb is just too small, even if the current drive was brand new.
Could someone recommend an inexpensive (cheap!) burner that would do the job of burning the modified Award bios? Or is there some other way to get a boot rom onto a chip?

The TL866 is a good burner, albeit not cheap, but I have seen it for ~50 EUR but not below. It would be much easier to find someone in your vicinity with a burner and just order the empty chips, or even order the chips with the BIOS already burnt. If you - howerver are planning to burn more things and learn it, then you would be better off finding one for cheap. Used ones go for around 40-70 bucks it seems (European bucks that is 😁)

Hamby wrote:

my first thought is to use an ISA network adapter with a boot rom and try to boot from that; I've always been fascinated by that empty socket on my network cards, so it would be doubly cool to be able to boot using a rom in that socket. Again, I'd have to somehow be able to burn it, first. And yes, I want a network card in my T5200. But if I'm going to burn a rom anyway, shouldn't I just go ahead and fix the BIOS? I know nothing about burning eproms, but I am interested in learning, if the learning is not too expensive. I already paid too much for the T5200 (not more than it's worth to me, just more than I can afford, 🤣) .

If you want to have a network card in your machine anyways then you could indeed go the ISA network boot rom route. And if your aim is to obtain an eeprom burner for learning / curiosity purposes anyways, then you could flash the BIOS as well, because... ehm... why not? You would be able to boot from your custom HDD device (either replaced HDD or CF/SD2IDE...) regardless of the presence of your network card. Also I almost forgot, even WITH an XT-IDE card you still need a modified BIOS for it to work. At least IanB was recently not able to make it boot from XT-IDE with the original BIOS. But then, there are various different BIOS revisions of these machines, some let you boot from non Conners or other stuff, some just won't let you at all.

Hamby wrote:

I have two 6gb drives formatted (3 FAT partitions) identically with DOS 6.22 / WFW 3.11 on them; one is in my K6-300 system (overkill, I know) which I have on my network, the other I would love to be able to put into the T5200. I've read comments about using the rom from a Promise EIDE FloppyMax controller in a network card in order to use a bootable hard drive. Would this work?

I haven't done it myself, albeit there are numerous reports of this method to be working on this model...

Hamby wrote:

I also want to put a sound card into the T5200. I've read messages about needing the 16 bit slot for a soundblaster... but I have an 8 bit soundblaster. I was planning on putting it in the 8 bit slot. Would there be a problem with this?

In theory there shouldn't be a problem. The 8bit slot has enough space that even overhanging cards shouldn't be a problem (to a degree). IIRC the original Soundblaster I 8bit cards have basically almost no overhang, though. But yes, 8bit for SB, and 16bit free for your other shenanigans.

Hamby wrote:

Other comments/questions. If one were to connect a CF drive, could one not cut a slot in the rear metal cover where the internal modem would go, and mount it there? One could simply reach behind the machine, then.

Well, a slot type internal CF bracket would come to mind, albeit you said you intend to populate both ISA slots. I would still see whether you couldn't find another solution You see: With the T3200SX you can (4-screws only) lift up the keyboard and reach things like RAM, BIOS chips without much hassle/disassembly. After removing one RAM stick you can (with a bit of fiddling) actually reach the SD2IDE adapter I put in the main IDE slot where the Conner HDD was and therefore rather easily get out and replace the SD card. So with this model, cutting holes in the back somewhere is not needed. I do not know where exaclty the IDE drive bay resides in the T5200, but Vipersan or IanB could easily tell you whether you can reach it without complete disassembly on the T5200, which would of course be favourable in contrast to cutting a hole in somewhere.

Hamby wrote:

Speaking of floppies... what about connecting an LS-120 Superdisk drive to it? An internal LS-120 would hold about 120mb per disk, and connects via IDE. It supports floppy disks as well as its proprietary disks (I did a search on ebay, and a few are available). Or, possibly, a parallel port LS-120, which also would support floppies? The latter would allow for an internal drive plus the 120mb external storage, as well as the ability to use floppies.
If I could get a CF card reader or a network card working, I'm not particularly worried about a functional floppy drive, for myself.

That... would be cool. I only own one LS-120, and it's a super slim-line LS-120 modular removable thin drive from a Compaq Armada laptop. 😁
I do not know whether it's possible to get one hooked up, but since it's also possible to replace the proprietary floppy drive with a generic one I don't see why not. One would have to try.

PS: Also after you modified the BIOS, you will be limited to using only 528MB of regardless what you attached, but Drive Overlay software like On-Track or EZ-Drive will let you use the rest of the storage as well. An XT-IDE is not needed just for being able to use the full capacity, just FYI.

For RTC battery replacements you could either use a 3V CR2032 button cell (either with diode soldered before the "+" to ensure that it's protected against possible back-(charge)currents, a genuine 3.7V Lithium cell (barrel shaped like AA) or actually you can use three AA/AAA cells and place them anywhere you have space in the case. (In this case I would use rechargeable ones instead of Alkalines to also be on the safe side in regards to back-currents.)

PPS: Welcome to the forum. It is clear what sparked your urge to register here and all I can say is "Welcome!" and "Yes, this is indeed the beginning of the end (of your wallet's life)."

Reply 112 of 452, by Hamby

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It came! My T5200/100 arrived today, complete with Toshiba case. I didn't realize that it has an old network card in it already (BNC/AUI connectors). I haven't fired it up yet; I'm torn between wanting to see how it runs right now, and opening it up to inspect its condition first.
Before I can do either, I'll need to clear off some desk space; it's plenty big. Makes me wish I needed to fly somewhere right now, just to see the looks I get going through security (when it was made, there was no TSA, at least as we know it today!)

I could see using this "laptop" on my lap as a last resort, maybe!

I'm so excited, I can't wait for the weekend so I can start digging into this puppy!
If anyone's interested, I'll post what I find out about its inwards. I'm hoping it has an award bios...

Reply 113 of 452, by Vipersan

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Hamby wrote:
It came! My T5200/100 arrived today, complete with Toshiba case. I didn't realize that it has an old network card in it already […]
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It came! My T5200/100 arrived today, complete with Toshiba case. I didn't realize that it has an old network card in it already (BNC/AUI connectors). I haven't fired it up yet; I'm torn between wanting to see how it runs right now, and opening it up to inspect its condition first.
Before I can do either, I'll need to clear off some desk space; it's plenty big. Makes me wish I needed to fly somewhere right now, just to see the looks I get going through security (when it was made, there was no TSA, at least as we know it today!)

I could see using this "laptop" on my lap as a last resort, maybe!

I'm so excited, I can't wait for the weekend so I can start digging into this puppy!
If anyone's interested, I'll post what I find out about its inwards. I'm hoping it has an award bios...

Yes please Hamby ..if you wouldnt mind..
The more info and pics we have the better imo
rgds
VS

Reply 114 of 452, by Vipersan

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My broken T3200SX has arrived ..and does indeed let me into DOS once the defaults are restored in bios ..so looks like another RTC batt mod needed ..
The good news is the floppy appears to work ..
A couple of pics attached..
hopefully I'll get time to play with this unit this coming weekend.
Damned shame about the plasma screen ..
If I could get a replacement I'd love to fully restore it...but what are the chances...
rgds
VS

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Reply 115 of 452, by jaZz_KCS

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But on the positive side you now have a replacement keyboard (that would need slight alterations to work in the T5200 and also a working floppy.

Be sure to take it out, open it up far enough to cleanse the heads with alcohol and lube the screw bearing. then it should last you even longer.

Reply 116 of 452, by Hamby

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OMG, I may cry...

I fired my machine up... hit f1 at the bad cmos prompt... pressed end to save data... rebooted..

it booted to msdos... with QEMM 7.03.. and Norton is doing a virus search now.

I'll get pix if I can.

okay it finished.. went to a menu then quickly to a spinning 3d clown head... I hit escape and it went to a menu:

"Fisher Precision Systems, Inc"
options include the DOS editor, nortion find file, memory status, setup ENGINEERING, setup terminal emulator, prom burning procedures, borland C (!?), UFMS (do not use), run windows and win3 (do not use).

Also logon / logoff network, load network software, and remove network software.

Now it's at a C prompt...

Sorry for blabbing like that, I was just trying to share what condition it seems to be in. it definitely does have a musty smell.
I'm going to shut her down for now, and when she cools maybe open her up and see what she's like inside.

I'll try to get pix; may post them to instagram or twitter or something.

Reply 117 of 452, by IanB

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Vipersan wrote:

Very large hard drives I suspect are not catered for ..so for now at least your limit may be 528mb with a modified bios..

Now they are catered for...

I've finished patching the T5200 Phoenix BIOS and updated the Award BIOS. I've uploaded them to my thread here:
Toshiba T5200 mods and upgrades
Both are version 1.1 and have built in XTIDE Universal BIOS which works with the existing internal IDE interface so you shoud be able to use any HD up to 8GB (larger should also work but aren't supported by DOS)
As the above post is at the bottom of the first page, rather than make multiple posts, I'll continue to edit that post with the latest versions and post pointers to it.

Also as the T3200SX BIOS is very similar, I've uploaded an attempt at applying the same patches to the T3200SX which is now beta 3
I'll attempt to patch the Phoenix BIOS for the T3200SX as well.

Let me know if the Phoenix one works on your system. Both of them work on my T5200s but it occurred to me that one reason for your problem might be that your video BIOS is different as well and only works with the Phoenix main BIOS.

Can you post a dump of your T5200's Video BIOS sometime in case it is updated like your main BIOS. (It's a 27C256 chip on the dual pcb board at the back of the unit which which should pull out when the access panel for the ISA slots is removed)

Reply 118 of 452, by jaZz_KCS

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IanB wrote:
Also as the T3200SX BIOS is very similar, I've uploaded an attempt at applying the same patches to the T3200SX which is now beta […]
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Vipersan wrote:

Very large hard drives I suspect are not catered for ..so for now at least your limit may be 528mb with a modified bios..

Also as the T3200SX BIOS is very similar, I've uploaded an attempt at applying the same patches to the T3200SX which is now beta 3
I'll attempt to patch the Phoenix BIOS for the T3200SX as well.

Let me know if the Phoenix one works on your system. Both of them work on my T5200s but it occurred to me that one reason for your problem might be that your video BIOS is different as well and only works with the Phoenix main BIOS.

Can you post a dump of your T5200's Video BIOS sometime in case it is updated like your main BIOS. (It's a 27C256 chip on the dual pcb board at the back of the unit which which should pull out when the access panel for the ISA slots is removed)

I sadly do not have an EEPROM burner, otherwise I would gladly try out your BIOS alterations for the T3200SX, but Vipersan thankfully now has a spare T3200SX, too to try them out.

The altered BIOS chip I got from a fellow vogoner has the hybrid version from HighTreason on it (PhoenixBIOS), which is supposedly a mix of the newest 03I video BIOS (it's supposed to be faster) together with the 03C main BIOS from what I can gather. It works very well, although it basically defaults to the two settings "Normal" and "Advanced", which both result in 40MB drive settings. It seems that all drives (at least to 8 GB) are supported with that one, albeit due to the 40MB setting you kind of have to use overlay software always to make everything above 40MB usable. But every drive I threw at it so far seems to work, including SD2IDE adapters.

Reply 119 of 452, by Vipersan

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Thanks for you continued help on this project Ian.
find attached my T5200 Phoenix Video Bios
fwiw Ian ..I suspect you are correct about the video bios .
The ASCII does indicate Phoenix also.
When trying to use your modded bios ..I never see anything on screen..but that doesn't mean nothing is happening..more likely it simply isn't visible.
rgds
VS
I'm currently erasing my eproms to use tonight ...but will wait for your verdict ..re --the Video bios before flashing anything.

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