Maybe just use a bootmenu? That way you can boot multiple operating systems from multiple disks.

Yes the a,c,cdrom issue can be fixed with a bootmanager.

rocksolid_1997 wrote:

Hi Vogonians ! [...] […]
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Hi Vogonians !
[...]

So, my wish for a motherboard is:

• * Socket 7
  * PS/2 support, either just mouse, or both KB & mouse
  * USB 1.0, with possible DOS support (.. was that ever a thing?)
  * LS120 supported natively in BIOS (mapping LS120 to A: ) - and ZIP is also a plus.
  * Multiple boot-options, either on device-level or just.. MORE than C/A/CDROM 😀
  * 1-2 ISA slots
  * 3-4 PCI slots
  * 0-1 AGP slot (will not be used)

Does it have to be an AT board or can it also be ATX?

In the latter case you get 2x PS/2 and 2x USB as standard. For use in DOS your board has to have USB Legacy Support, which basically means it presents USB HID to the system as PS/2, so basic keyboard and mouse work.

Can't help re LS120, after some very clicky experiences with ZIP100 I moved to CDRW and didn't look back, certainly not after getting a decent-sized HDD in 1999. Tbh I don't see why LS120 boot would be relevant on a development system (as opposed to a perfect period-correct reproduction of whatever you had). In the day there was a small window between say 1994 and 1998 when software grew faster than HDD capacity, leading to things like ZIP and LS120, but given you can now just plonk in a multi-GB HDD, there's no added value for small, unreliable LS120s. If you actually have data on those things that needs reading, the drive itself makes sense, but the boot requrirement less so.

I'd have to check to be sure (I'm a day's travel from home at the moment), but I think my Tekram MVP3 board offers booting off any of the connected IDE drives, which would give you four options. For more than that, add cards with option ROMs. SCSI gives you 15 devices to choose from (on top of onboard IDE), but just a good old PCI Promise ATA66 controller would add another 4 without requiring hard-to-find hardware (affordable and functional SCSI is completely eluding me right now).

SO, the problem is probably not finding the PERFECT motherboard of my dreams; the problem is to actually find a place to purchase it 😀 Therefore I am looking for some variations over the theme "boards that can do what you want", so I have some options to look for in the future. One of my biggest problems is finding the range of the motherboards support, like does it have LS120 or "multiple hdd-boot"-support. It seems like a random raffle to buy a Motherboard without prior knowledge.

Tip here: when you see one available near you for an acceptable price, look up its manual. Most manuals show every single BIOS option - including the boot options.

As a rule of thumb, I think you'd be best served with a later So7 non-OEM board with Award BIOS. The fact you really don't need AGP helps here: the boards with late chipsets with AGP slots (MPV3, Aladdin V) are very popular, but the similar era ones with onboard or integrated VGA (SiS 530/540, Via MVP4 - or just MVP3 and Aladdin V with onboard Rage Pro or something) far less so. I'd consider hunting around in that space.

I just did a quick scan on Amibay, and there's a DFI P5BTX/L for sale in Portugal for a good price that allows booting from C, D, SCSI and LS120/ZIP (not clear if it also can map to A:) - see here, has a PS/2 header, 4x PCI and 3x ISA. The only downside is the intentionally castrated i430TX chipset, only being able to cache 64MB - but with your P133 and 32MB that shouldn't be an issue.

It doesn't have to be AT - can be ATX 😀 im not picky !

Do you know if DOS legacy USB support can handle removable drives ? Ive never done it - it wasn't relevant when i had the hardware, and then well.. windows came along.

I loved (and love) my LS120 😀 Booting on LS120 means it can boot floppy disks as well - it entirely saves me of a floppy drive while having the same high-density interface for several of my machines, namely the 120mb disk, instead of the sometime clunky/wonky CF card-adapters, that can/cannot be hot swapped depending on system. The LS120 is basically just a way for me to loose the floppy, but have it as a controller option if needed at any point.

I actually thought the manuals where not all that available, mostly because I had such a hard time last time to find mine; but hey - i will try 😀

I will keep a note with the later So7 nonOEM boards; am I correct to assume that with the case of SuperSocket7, I will get never motherboards, with full backward compability to Socket 7 ? Thereby also, a lot never and more refined BIOS' (i presume) and hardware ?

P.s. thanks for all the replies and your help ! Im pretty sure i knew all of this in the 90ies, but it feels like I lost my brain somewhere in the 00'ies 😁

rocksolid_1997 wrote:

It doesn't have to be AT - can be ATX 😀 im not picky !

That helps 😀

Do you know if DOS legacy USB support can handle removable drives ? Ive never done it - it wasn't relevant when i had the hardware, and then well.. windows came along.

USB drives aren't HID, so are not covered by USB legacy support.

Even with Win98SE they're a pain to get working; under DOS I wouldn't even try...

I loved (and love) my LS120 😀 Booting on LS120 means it can boot floppy disks as well - it entirely saves me of a floppy drive while having the same high-density interface for several of my machines, namely the 120mb disk, instead of the sometime clunky/wonky CF card-adapters, that can/cannot be hot swapped depending on system. The LS120 is basically just a way for me to loose the floppy, but have it as a controller option if needed at any point.

That's what the Gotek USB stick floppy emulator is for. But if you're happy with LS120, by all means use it 😉

I actually thought the manuals where not all that available, mostly because I had such a hard time last time to find mine; but hey - i will try 😀

That was an old, obscure board. And even there it was available. It sometimes takes some Google-fu but usually it can be done and even if not it's worth a try.

I will keep a note with the later So7 nonOEM boards; am I correct to assume that with the case of SuperSocket7, I will get never motherboards, with full backward compability to Socket 7 ? Thereby also, a lot never and more refined BIOS' (i presume) and hardware ?

There's no such thing as 'Super Socket 7" 😉

It's just a list of marketing features such as SDRAM support, AGP support and 100MHz FSB support that led vendors to stick a "super!!!" label on the box. In terms of pinout, voltage and compatibility it's all regular So7 and - with one limitation - offers backward compatibility all the way to the earliest So5 CPUs.

The limitation is FSB. Most (but not all) Super So7 boards cannot go lower than 66MHz FSB, so CPUs that require 50, 55 or 60MHz cannot work, at least not at their intended speeds. But over 100MHz you can be creative - a Pentium 150 is designed for 2.5x60MHz, but usually doesn't care how you do 150MHz, so 2x75MHz or even 1.5x100MHz could work.

Also note that late So7 boards don't always have 72p SIMM slots, so you might need new RAM.

dionb wrote:

There's no such thing as 'Super Socket 7" 😉

Sorry, you are wrong. "Super Socket 7" describes a platform, not a socket.
And you proved it by defining the platform below.

dionb wrote:

It's just a list of marketing features such as SDRAM support, AGP support and 100MHz FSB support.

The limitation is FSB. Most (but not all) Super So7 boards cannot go lower than 66MHz FSB,

You need to go for an ATX board, if you don't have any pressing concerns that forces you to buy an AT one. With ATX, your options for a case and power supply will be cheaper and easier to find (very wild range of options already new on the shelf) and you will almost most definately have PS/2 ports, SDRAM sockets, onboard USB, etc., i.e.: the things that will make your life easier.

For a socket 7 board, I'm not sure if you can find more than HDD/FDD/CD options to boot from, but you will definately find options for choosing which HDD to boot or booting from SCSI. Since your CF most probably will be connected thru an CF to IDE adapter, ability to choose which HDD to boot from will solve your problem I guess. And there is always nultiboot software (like Masterbooter).

Here is what I use in my Pentium MMX rig:

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/sock7/430 … 3532.1523361242

By the way, if you mean keyboard and mouse by "DOS USB support", you will most probably get it (keyboard at least) but if you mean other USB devices like pen drives or USB external disks, there is no practical way (in my opinion) exists (apart from memory hog TSRs and cobbled together drivers). You can always multiboot with Windows 98 SE which has the least problematic USB support of pre Windows 2000 OSes, especially with the help of NUSB USB driver pack.

Ability to boot from LS120/ZIP drives is an option I generally associate with PII/PIII boards (had no LS120 drives myself, just talking about the BIOSes that I came acroos during the years), but I might be wrong. But of course you can use an LS120 drive with your proposed rig (mine has a zip drive), even if you can not boot from it.

PS: If you go for known brands (Gigabyte and Asus are my all time favorites) you will have no difficulty in finding manuals, BIOS updates, drivers, etc.

Oh that Asus TXP4-X looks nice.. I could go for 4 PCI and only 2 or 3 ISA however, but the txp4 is really nice.

yearh, with the Usb i actually did mean actual drives, but just as I posted it I thought it was a brainfart; it would, as you say, take up the memory that I specially do not want to take up.. and the alternative is then to run a program to load and unload USB-support, but.. rly.. might as well just go network on it then. To be its just a matter of finding the right ease of use, so that i can easily switch between my primary machine and retro-builder, and I am sure I will find that somehow.. the ATX formfactor is at least, a very good start.

Sidenote.. With ATX, it might even be possible to go for a Pico-PSU-ATX solution ? My guess is, that these little guys can handle the old motherboards just fine, as long as there are nothing consuming vast amount of energy, like modern graphic-cards. .. and with the PSU basically gone,.. oh this almost calls for a custom plexiglass case then 😀 .. whenever I find that perfect motherboard ofc 😁

(sorry, i always forget to use the quote function)

@ rocksolid_1997

What is the necessity/function of the LS120 and CF card?

Unless there is something I'm missing it seems like a boot manager and multiple HDD partitions would fix all your problems.
Each partition can have it's own OS - even if they are all DOS.
.

@PCBonez: For the task at hand its not a necessity to have LS120, for me its purely "a nice to have". its one of the things that for me, gives the machine value.

I have LS120 in several of my machines. I have that, because its nostalgic for me; i was really proud to finally get "something special" that I felt might be the future in PC's - back in the 90'ies. Also, its a really convenient way to transfer files from one running DOS, to another running DOS, as its "hot swappable" (as much as diskettes are this) - and with the adapter i have to my older laptops, I can even transfer it there. 120mb is enough for everyone (trololooo) - or at least, its enough for most DOS-based programmes and systems 😀 Also, I have some access from my main PC to the LS120's which I find quite amusing.

The CF card has multiple purposes. I have a boot disk which can be either HDD or CF card. Either really works, as long as they are detected. This function as my primary boot disk and contains Windows 95/98/dos whichever. On a secondary CF-adapter i have a much smaller CF card, running a lean version of DOS, easily transferable to my main windows 10 computer, where both development and vital file-transfer can take place. I like to have this switchable, as in, I want a bunch of smaller 32/64mb CF cards with specific purposes, for that "lean and tighty" feel of nothing "cluttering" up the machinery so to speak, when running DOS. Its just nice to have development files and system on a specific CF card, easily transferable, GIT'able from a main computer, and i like the constraints of the smaller sized CF cards (i have like.. 30-40 industrial-quality 32-64mb CF-cards some of which i have previously used for this purpose)

Bootmanagers can indeed solve this problem boot-problem, though I am not sure they can let me boot from the LS120 ? Maybe ? I haven't gotten around to using Bootmanagers yet, but its on my todolist 😀

rocksolid_1997 wrote:

Oh that Asus TXP4-X looks nice.. I could go for 4 PCI and only 2 or 3 ISA however, but the txp4 is really nice. […]
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Oh that Asus TXP4-X looks nice.. I could go for 4 PCI and only 2 or 3 ISA however, but the txp4 is really nice.

yearh, with the Usb i actually did mean actual drives, but just as I posted it I thought it was a brainfart; it would, as you say, take up the memory that I specially do not want to take up.. and the alternative is then to run a program to load and unload USB-support, but.. rly.. might as well just go network on it then. To be its just a matter of finding the right ease of use, so that i can easily switch between my primary machine and retro-builder, and I am sure I will find that somehow.. the ATX formfactor is at least, a very good start.

Sidenote.. With ATX, it might even be possible to go for a Pico-PSU-ATX solution ? My guess is, that these little guys can handle the old motherboards just fine, as long as there are nothing consuming vast amount of energy, like modern graphic-cards. .. and with the PSU basically gone,.. oh this almost calls for a custom plexiglass case then 😀 .. whenever I find that perfect motherboard ofc 😁

(sorry, i always forget to use the quote function)

You found it: its called a KVM Switch 🤣

http://www.aten.com/global/en/products/kvm/de … b/#.Wsy4puRrzIU

By the way, for data transfer from modern to retro rigs, I tried many options: CDRW, ZIP drives, HDD docks, removable HDD trays, CF adapters.... Then I diccarded all and connected everything to my network. I think it is the best choice, but of course having XT or 286 class machines in the mix will change things a bit 🤣

tayyare wrote:

You found it: its called a KVM Switch 🤣

Haha no not that kind of switching 😁 Physical actual, switching between two workstations with my body 😀 ... but if you can find me a cheap KVM switch which i can control inside a program on my main windows (Takes VGA in, PS2/USB out - transfer it via ethernet, pops it out into a program) ... then please.. do tell .. then i can retro-develop from work... 😁

I like the constraints of the smaller CF cards. Its probably impractical, and I might end up with networking aswell at some point, its just important for me to have a "safe, non-polluted environment" thats why I have that extra CF with just pure DOS and a few files I use.

Do you have any experience with loading AND unloading DOS networking - to reclaim memory ?

rocksolid_1997 wrote:

tayyare wrote:

You found it: its called a KVM Switch 🤣

Haha no not that kind of switching 😁 Physical actual, switching between two workstations with my body 😀 ... but if you can find me a cheap KVM switch which i can control inside a program on my main windows (Takes VGA in, PS2/USB out - transfer it via ethernet, pops it out into a program) ... then please.. do tell .. then i can retro-develop from work... 😁

No, not really... 😊

rocksolid_1997 wrote:

Do you have any experience with loading AND unloading DOS networking - to reclaim memory ?

Not much (limited to loading packet drivers and playing Doom/DoomII), but I know it's certainly doable (not just IPX/SPX but TCP/IP, too). There was a sofware called "MS Network Client for DOS" and I know there are plenty of resources about how to set it up.

tayyare wrote:

Not much (limited to loading packet drivers and playing Doom/DoomII), but I know it's certainly doable (not just IPX/SPX but TCP/IP, too). There was a sofware called "MS Network Client for DOS" and I know there are plenty of resources about how to set it up.

Also unloading? Bc I seem to recall it wasn't always as easy to unload TSR's

loading unloading dos packet drivers is a sinch. I only load mine when I need it, so its the last TSR in the chain, then you can remove them no worries.

I have a batch file called fget that will load my pack driver, dhcp an address, grab 1 file off my ftp, unload my packet driver. very handy.

On my super socket 7 board, I'm running a 3com 3c905B/C. autoexec runs the pci init/config software (its non-resident).

tayyare wrote:

Ability to boot from LS120/ZIP drives is an option I generally associate with PII/PIII boards (had no LS120 drives myself, just talking about the BIOSes that I came acroos during the years), but I might be wrong. But of course you can use an LS120 drive with your proposed rig (mine has a zip drive), even if you can not boot from it.

I stand corrected. How funny is this? My own socket 7 board has the BIOS suport to boot from LS120/ZIP Drives!.. 🤣

I just came home from work and checked my Pentium MMX rig, and see that (in contrast to official manual) it has "boot from LS120/ZIP" option. Appearently the BIOS I have is a more recent version than the one in the manual.

So this is good news for you 😊

BloodyCactus wrote:

loading unloading dos packet drivers is a sinch. I only load mine when I need it, so its the last TSR in the chain, then you can remove them no worries.

I have a batch file called fget that will load my pack driver, dhcp an address, grab 1 file off my ftp, unload my packet driver. very handy.

On my super socket 7 board, I'm running a 3com 3c905B/C. autoexec runs the pci init/config software (its non-resident).

Also, you can load the packet driver (at least for a 3C509B) high, so it doesn't take up any conventional memory - unless your high mem is so full that you can't spare the 8k or so it costs.

Thanks for all the input, it has given me food for thought 😀 First order of business must be to find a proper ATX motherboard with as many of the needed features; then after that I will look into the ethernet-solution you proposed 😀

tayyare wrote:

I stand corrected. How funny is this? My own socket 7 board has the BIOS suport to boot from LS120/ZIP Drives!.. 🤣

I just came home from work and checked my Pentium MMX rig, and see that (in contrast to official manual) it has "boot from LS120/ZIP" option. Appearently the BIOS I have is a more recent version than the one in the manual.

So this is good news for you 😊

I started looking for this, after the advice in the thread; however, it seems manuals aren't necessarily a really good place to look for that data 😒 look at this (non-brand) motherboard; http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/Archive/Epox/manuals/p55tv.pdf - on "Figure 3-3 BIOS FEATURES SETUP" they show the BIOS being able to boot C,A,SCSI - but in the text they only mention C, A and CDROM.. 😕

Im loving it 😀