VOGONS


Reply 40 of 49, by PCBONEZ

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I've been neglecting this thread because the OP hasn't showed up for a while.
I see no reason to spend my time here if he doesn't want/need help anymore.

I'm only active on Vogons in short bursts then I go *poof* for a long while.
It's nearing time for me to go poof.

@SpectriaForce
I know I'm leaving you hanging as to solder methods.
Sorry about that I just have to get back to the real world.
I'm hardly the only one that can teach that stuff.
If you -really- want to get into it I suggest joining badcaps.net.
You will get good guidance there, particularly if you listen to the oldbies.

==
@All
I will try to check back in a day or two to answer any critical burning questions but after that I'm gone for a while.
.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
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Reply 41 of 49, by SpectriaForce

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Thanks for the tips. Well my plan is not really to 'get into soldering', but some tips are always handy for the potential next motherboard or graphics card repair.

Reply 42 of 49, by gdjacobs

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Some basic through hole soldering is very handy to know if you're going to be doing work on older hardware. Some of the more advanced stuff like SMT soldering is not nearly so important.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 43 of 49, by Almoststew1990

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Wow I didn't expect this thread to get this busy! Thank you for all the helpful replies and apologies I haven't been more active in my thread - the real world (work 🙁 ) called...

PCBONEZ wrote:
... The info that is needed is Make Series uF Volts Diameter Length .. and maybe .. The standard lead-spaces are 5mm for 10 & 12 […]
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...
The info that is needed is
Make
Series
uF
Volts
Diameter
Length
.. and maybe ..
The standard lead-spaces are 5mm for 10 & 12.5mm caps and 3.5mm for 8mm caps.
If they are not standard it should be noted.
.

So the info I have is (for my example cap):

Make: GSC
Series: LE (mostly)
uF: 3,300
v: 6.3v
Diameter: I'll check when I can dig out a rule but looks like 1cm
Height: I'll check when I can dig out a rule but it looks like 10cm to me.
Spacing: I'll check when I can dig out my rule but it looks like 0.5cm to me (well about half the diameter)

I've had a look at RS-Online and the closest I can find is:

Panasonic Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitor 3300μF 6.3V dc 10mm FR Radial Series, Through Hole Electrolytic, ±20%
H4II2PVh.png

No mention of spacing - is this sometimes called Lead Pitch?
No LE series' to choose from.

Based on your rundown of the different types of cap - do you have a recommendation?

My main issue is that my Dad's iron is only 25watts 🙁

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I have a vacancy for a main Windows 98 PC

Reply 44 of 49, by gdjacobs

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www.paullinebarger.net/DS/GSC/GSC%20200 ... Series.pdf

Match the case size, voltage, and capacitance and you'll be able to determine the ESR. From that, you can select the appropriate series of replacement cap.

Yes, spacing is the same as lead pitch.

That iron is a little light for any board featuring a significant ground plane. You could invest in a quality iron from a reputable manufacturer like Pace, Hakko, Weller, etc. Alternately, a Chinese T12 iron or 936 clone would probably work fine with the understanding that there might be some quality issues and it might not last a lifetime like a Hakko often will.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 45 of 49, by PCBONEZ

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@Almoststew1990
You just had to go pick an FR that's not in the official datasheet so I can't lookup ESR & Ripple .... din'nya...

Not to worry, that happens sometimes. There is a work-around.
In quality brands in the size range of concern all the caps (in a given series) with the same can size have the same ESR & Ripple ratings.
(There are a few exceptions but that is rare.)
Because of that when you are comparing one series to another you look at the ESR & Ripple for caps with the same CAN SIZE and ignore uF.
!! That's how to compare one series to another. "This series has lower ESR than that series" - kind of thing. It's not how to choose a specific cap.

So, the FR you picked is 10x25mm. It has the same ESR & Ripple as the other FR 10x25mm (and is) 0.018 Ohms and 2470 mA.
That's pretty much an exact match to GSC LE series. - Good pick.
I looked at what RS stocks and FM (if they aren't too fat) would be another option for LE replacements.
If you were going to do a partial poly upgrade the LE are the ones to replace with polys.

BTW: Crap brand datasheets are all kinds of flakey. The numbers jump all over the place.
Often you just have to look at a bunch of them on a sheet and say: "Okay they are a~b~o~u~t here."

GSC branded caps (before all the name changing) only came in 3 series. LE, RE and BP.
BP is bipolar, not applicable to typical PC mobos.
LE & RE are both low ESR with LE being the lower ESR of the two.
Early on GSC didn't even mark the series on their caps. You had to go by the color.
Panny has started to do that with the FR series as it's the only black Panny with white printing now.

Keep in mind that near slots you need short caps so they don't interfere with add-in cards.
The usual size to see there is 12.5mm tall but you might see anything from 8 to 13mm.
You should also check if new tall caps (replacing short ones) will cause a problems with CPU heatsinks.

The main rail voltages on mobos are 3.3v 5v 12v.
6.3v and 10v caps both work on 3.3v and 5v so 6.3v and 10v can be considered interchangeable for mobos & PSUs.
Elsewhere you might run into 9v so you have to pay more attention.

GSC RE series are near bottom tier as low ESR caps go. ( LE are a few ESR grades better than RE.)
If you believe GSC's datasheets are accurate (which i don't) the RE series are a tiny bit better than Panny FC.
[Total guess] I suspect GSC fudged the specs to compete against Panny FC and Nichicon PW which were popular at the time.
I've known several techs who's go-to caps to replace those (and similar craps) was Panny FC.
They never had any problems that I heard about, but my preference is to fail-up a few grades to something comparable to Rubycon ZL, Chemicon KZE, Nichicon HD or Sanyo/Suncon WX.

gdjacobs is absolutely right. A 25w iron isn't going to cut it.
If this is going to be something you only do once or twice a year then a 60-80 standard type iron would be fine.
Same-same if you are on a tight budget. A standard iron with appropriate watts will work.
If you're going to do it more often (or just like nice tools) a Hakko 926/936 + tip assortment would be my personal choice for mobo work.
I've used Weller and Pace at work and I own a Pace station but for mobos I go to my Hakkos.
Now that that is written it sounds kinda funny............ 🤣 🤣

This place mostly carries knock-offs of one thing or another but I've heard 4 or 5 positive reports (in forums and such) and haven't heard anything bad.
This is the link to the branch on your side of the pond.
http://www.circuitspecialists.eu/soldering/so … derfunction=118
It's also (the US branch) where i got my most recent desoldering station.
https://www.circuitspecialists.com/bk4000.html
I have the older sheet metal (vs extruded aluminum) version that has all the sex appeal of a cinder block, but the specs are the same, it uses the same gun and consumable parts, and it works well.
Those are nice but not necessary. Solder braid (aka solder wick) + some flux is all you really need to do desolder caps.
.

Last edited by PCBONEZ on 2018-04-22, 12:23. Edited 2 times in total.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 46 of 49, by gdjacobs

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PCBONEZ wrote:

BTW: Crap brand datasheets are all kinds of flakey. The numbers jump all over the place.
Often you just have to look at a bunch of them on a sheet and say: "Okay they are a~b~o~u~t here."

Well, quality control on crap caps is more like a childhood aspiration than a result.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 47 of 49, by PCBONEZ

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I found a dated (10 years old) version of my caps grade cheat-sheet (the one currently lost in my NAS upgrade HDD shuffle) on one of my other systems.

The series' I mentioned earlier for RE replacement are 2 grades better than RE (& FC/PW). As I said they'll work fine.
The following are 1 grade better than RE (& FC/PW) and will work too. Mentioning because RS stocks some of them.
Panny FK, Chemicon KY, Nichicon HE, Rubycon YXG and YXH.

As I said for the LE the Pannasonic FR and FM are a match.
RS also carries a Panny FS series which I have never come across before today and it's also a match.
Not sure why Panasonic feels a need to make 3 series in the same exact range, but whatever. As long as they keep making them I'm good.

To 1-up the LE the only AL-lytic options I know (think) are still in production are Nichicon HM and Sanyo/Suncon WG.
RS does not carry those. You'd have to look elsewhere.

[Tip]
The Panny FK series includes a size for PSU use that is near impossible find. - The 2200uF 16v 10mm.
Some PSUs simply don't have room for a 12.5mm and that FK is the only suitable (non-crap) 10mm cap still in normal production.
Hording a few = Good idea.
The 3300uF 6.3v 10mm FK is another tough size to find (in 10mm) with PSU appropriate ESR but not so tough as the 16v 10mm.
Only brought this up because I noticed RS stocks them.
.

Last edited by PCBONEZ on 2018-04-21, 11:03. Edited 1 time in total.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 48 of 49, by PCBONEZ

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gdjacobs wrote:
PCBONEZ wrote:

BTW: Crap brand datasheets are all kinds of flakey. The numbers jump all over the place.
Often you just have to look at a bunch of them on a sheet and say: "Okay they are a~b~o~u~t here."

Well, quality control on crap caps is more like a childhood aspiration than a result.

True.

The CH/TW (& Malaysia) companies buy their AL and/or foils from whoever is cheapest this week.
Few of them go so far as to test it for purity before using it.
That is compounded by the fact that CH mined AL already has more and different impurities than AL sourced elsewhere.

The Japanese (and US, UK, Australian if there still are any) cap manufacturers don't use CH mined AL and do the testing before using it.

To be fair some of the larger CH/TW/MY companies have improved over the years but it's habit and easier (and safer) to stick with Japanese brands.

Dunno if they are still around.... Some cap manufacturers popped up in the Middle-East a few years ago but unfortunately they were sourcing CH AL so they should be grouped with the CH/TW manufacturers.

====
The impurities in AL in AL-Lytic (wet) caps screw with the liquid electrolyte chemistry.

Solid Polymer are a different animal. - No liquid.
I am not aware of any problems with CH/TW/MY or any other Solid Polymer caps.
.

==== EDIT (Note)
>> (US, UK, Australian if there still are any) cap manufacturers <<
There are "good cap" companies outside of Japan.
They don't get mentioned often because they offer no (or very few) Lytic caps in the low ESR range.
.

Last edited by PCBONEZ on 2018-04-22, 06:57. Edited 1 time in total.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 49 of 49, by gdjacobs

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PCBONEZ wrote:

Solid Polymer are a different animal. - No liquid.
I am not aware of any problems with CH/TW/MY or any other Solid Polymer caps.
.

The base lifetime of the technology is quite a bit longer than Al-E caps, so I would expect even substandard series with less stable PEDOT to generally last as long or longer than the the best wet caps in service.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder