VOGONS


First post, by BaronSFel001

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AKA my tribute to Great Hierophant whose "Unique PC Hardware and Game Support" post is still one of my best go-to references for decisions on my retro build. I considered posting a comment on his site instead, but putting this much information as attachment to a 6-year old blog post seemed less feasible.

First, some history. It's fairly well-known that the CH Force FX (basically their F-16 Combatstick minus throttle and plus the obvious) introduced true force feedback to the world of game controllers (at least on the PC; consoles are another story). While it was a relatively-rough application that required a spare serial port and external power supply in addition to the gameport, CH broke the levee and soon enough we had the Sidewinder FFPro which took a different approach that eliminated the need for RS-232 (it generated force commands through the MIDI pins in the gameport which joysticks normally did not use, rendering impossible the ability to utilize an external MIDI module alongside a Sidewinder Force Feedback Pro), the Logitech Wingman Force which was the first to go USB (with serial as a DOS-compatible fallback), and a variety others which varied in quality. What wasn't as well-known is how the three specific models mentioned here varied in their application compatibility.

Force Feedback in computer game controllers is a product of Immersion Technology's I-Force protocol. They licensed their API to several controller makers including such familiar names as Thrustmaster and Gravis, though at least one press release reveals a sort of love-hate relationship with Microsoft over Immersion believing the house of Bill Gates had ripped them off by independently-developing the technology used in Sidewinder Force Feedback devices but that they were forgiven by making I-Force a part of DirectX (https://www.wired.com/1997/06/joysticks-jerk- … uzz-and-evolve/). This divide in technology was part of what revealed the key points of difference.

The other part is still on Logitech's FTP; look in the Joysticks folder and you'll find two versions of the README for their Wingman Software. Both include a section stating that Logitech Force Feedback devices use I-Force 2.0 in conjunction with DirectX and give a list of titles known to be incompatible due to their use of either I-Force 1.0 or something referred to as "Microsoft's own proprietary 'Visual Force Factory'" (which another search revealed to be the name of the sensation editor while the protocol itself is merely "Sidewinder Force"). This is likely not exhaustive as we'll see later:

ABC's Monday Night Football 98
Air Warrior II
Bug Riders
Descent II
Die by the Sword
Extreme Assault
Fighter Duel SE
Interstate 76
Jet Fighter III
Rocket Jockey
Sierra Ski Racing
SODA Off Road Racing
Trophy Rivers
Unnecessary Roughness '96
Spearhead

As API standards are prone to merge, it is confirmed that by the time I-Force 2.0 was out it was fully-assimilated alongside DirectInput thus any Force Feedback title past that point (which by my informed estimate was in the latter half of 1997) should be compatible with any device whether from Microsoft or the competition. Before then developers were going their own ways which meant that, for example, you could forget about Force Feedback in Descent II if you happened to be using a Sidewinder FFPro. The Immersion entertainment products list (pulled courtesy of the Wayback Machine) flags these titles as incompatible with Sidewinder:

ABC's Monday Night Football
Air Warrior II
Descent 2
Fighter Duel SE
JetFighter Full Burn
JetFighter III
Rocket Jockey
Space Rocks 3D
Unnecessary Roughness '96

We see the lists are starting to match up. I think "not compatible with Microsoft Sidewinder" is a fairly-safe presumption of being exclusive to I-Force 1.0. As for Sidewinder Force, that's solved too in the same list by these titles flagged as "Only Supports Microsoft Sidewinder":

Beast Wars Transformers
B.F.R.I.S.
Bugriders
Cyber Strike 2
Dead Reckoning
Die by the Sword
Ed Hunter
Expendable
Front Page Trophy Bass II
Front Page Trophy Bass II Deluxe
Front Page Sports Trophy Rivers
H.E.D.Z.
Interstate 76
Microsoft Baseball 3D
MotorCross (sic) Madness
Powerboat Racing
Recoil
Shadow Master
Thunder Brigade
Test Drive Off-Road 2
Tiger Shark

That accounts for all of Logitech's list and then some save for Extreme Assault, Ski Racing and Spearhead which the Immersion list has but without incompatibility flags; what the significance of that is I haven't a clue. Anyway, until I stumbled across some of this and went on to do the research I was thinking my Force Feedback needs would be covered with a Sidewinder, but now I know to think more carefully. Since I may only get interested in one or two of the games on Logitech's incompatibility list I'm thinking I'll be good with the original Wingman Force if I could just find one in good shape for a decent price; thoughts would be appreciated on this as I'm very familiar with Sidewinders but have heard mixed reports about Logitech's build quality in the gameport-to-USB transition years.

I hope this information benefits others making some of the same considerations. Again, thank you to Great Hierophant for such a great (am I overusing that word?) information repository. I'd be honored if you'd find a use for this information and perhaps expand on it with the help of the other vintage gaming veterans here.

Last edited by BaronSFel001 on 2018-12-27, 20:05. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 19, by chinny22

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Not quite what your asking but I've got the Logitech Formula Force "old red" wheel. This was one of the devices that came with the usb to serial adaptor.
The build quality was excellent. I still have my original wheel back in Australia and have purchased a 2nd hand one here in the UK.
I can only assume the build quality of the sticks were of the same high quality back then?

However my father got the following model a few years later namely the Logitech Formula Force GP. It's still red but the quality had already dropped off. The plastic felt much lighter/thinner. the paddle shifters were now just toggle switch type things built into the back of the wheel and the peddles were not as solid.
My mate also got the original Logitech momo wheel around the same time and build quality was about the same.

So seems like the first generation devices were bester then the 2nd generation, at last with wheels.
Out of pure luck I don't own any of the games on the list, I didn't even think about compatibility. It did make for an interesting read

Reply 2 of 19, by BaronSFel001

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I have edited the initial post to clarify a couple points, and in the months since opted to acquire a CH Force FX that became available on ebay which was missing its power supply (easily replaceable) but is otherwise in fantastic shape. I figure I can use that for Descent II and serious jet sims (paired with a CH Pro Throttle for my Windows HOTAS) while the Sidewinder can cover prop and space combat thanks to its tremendous durability. End result of this is I'll be left with no force feedback compatibility concerns but as I said that wasn't a big deal to begin with; finding a Force FX was a coup in itself that I just couldn't pass up since there's nothing like it besides the Logitech G940 (which I've heard has reliability issues).

EDIT: It appears that the CH Hangar forum, a treasure trove of control profiles and technical information on the product line, shut down sometime recently. Therefore, I'd like to preserve here one piece of vital information I picked up from there a few months ago: the power supply for the Force FX (at least in the US) is a JOD-57U-03, a plug-in Class 2 Transformer with an input of AC 120V 60Hz 396mA and an output of DC 20V 1500mA. That is a direct quote by Steve from CH back in 2008; on another note, I wish they'd maintain their own website better and get their FTP going again.

Last edited by BaronSFel001 on 2019-01-10, 15:01. Edited 1 time in total.

System 20: PIII 600, LAPC-I, AWE64, S220, Voodoo3, SQ2500, R200, 3.1-Me
System 21: G2030 3.0, X-fi Fatal1ty, GTX 560, XP-Vista
Retro gaming (among other subjects): https://baronsfel001.wixsite.com/my-site

Reply 3 of 19, by ShakirBB

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Thank you very much for posting your research! By chance, do you have The Need for Speed Special Edition and Need for Speed II (Special Edition)? Another user, God Of Gaming, has been unable to get force feedback working with both games. NFSSE uses I-Force 1.0. Not sure what NFSII uses.

Reply 4 of 19, by BaronSFel001

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ShakirBB wrote:

Thank you very much for posting your research! By chance, do you have The Need for Speed Special Edition and Need for Speed II (Special Edition)? Another user, God Of Gaming, has been unable to get force feedback working with both games. NFSSE uses I-Force 1.0. Not sure what NFSII uses.

Unfortunately I'm not as interested in the racing genre as I am other vehicle simulations; while I'm familiar with the NFS series I own none of them thus am unable to test the force feedback which I presume is the context of your question. Do you know what force feedback device(s) God of Gaming is trying to use and under what OS? I know that the DirectX force feedback protocols for non-USB devices start running into problems past Windows 98SE while the DB-15 gameport is no longer [officially] supported as of Windows Vista, and among supported racing games they are most certainly designed with wheels rather than joysticks in mind.

The archived games list from Immersion does not have any compatibility markers next to Need for Speed SE and the Logitech list does not have it so there may not be a protocol issue here.

System 20: PIII 600, LAPC-I, AWE64, S220, Voodoo3, SQ2500, R200, 3.1-Me
System 21: G2030 3.0, X-fi Fatal1ty, GTX 560, XP-Vista
Retro gaming (among other subjects): https://baronsfel001.wixsite.com/my-site

Reply 5 of 19, by sonik

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ShakirBB wrote:

Thank you very much for posting your research! By chance, do you have The Need for Speed Special Edition and Need for Speed II (Special Edition)? Another user, God Of Gaming, has been unable to get force feedback working with both games. NFSSE uses I-Force 1.0. Not sure what NFSII uses.

I have found this thread while searching for another thing.

Theres a NFS2 source port. The author says that it have forcefeedback using SDL.
https://github.com/zaps166/NFSIISE

I have not managed to get ffb to work using this. I'm on windows.
Maybe you have more luck than me.

I would love to play nfs1 and nfs2 with propper ffb on my g27 😀

Reply 6 of 19, by GL1zdA

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Thanks for this list. Does i-Force 1.0 support mean it's also incompatible with newer, non-Sidewinder, devices? Is there a list of i-Force 1.0 devices?

Here's the link to the Immersion website you've mentioned: Prodcuts & Technologies: Entertainment.

getquake.gif | InfoWorld/PC Magazine Indices

Reply 7 of 19, by IlhanK

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sonik wrote on 2019-07-17, 19:10:
I have found this thread while searching for another thing. […]
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ShakirBB wrote:

Thank you very much for posting your research! By chance, do you have The Need for Speed Special Edition and Need for Speed II (Special Edition)? Another user, God Of Gaming, has been unable to get force feedback working with both games. NFSSE uses I-Force 1.0. Not sure what NFSII uses.

I have found this thread while searching for another thing.

Theres a NFS2 source port. The author says that it have forcefeedback using SDL.
https://github.com/zaps166/NFSIISE

I have not managed to get ffb to work using this. I'm on windows.
Maybe you have more luck than me.

I would love to play nfs1 and nfs2 with propper ffb on my g27 😀

Try this: https://verokster.blogspot.com/2019/11/need-f … tion-patch.html
and this: https://github.com/zaps166/NFSIISEN/releases/ … Speed.II.SE.zip

FF works for me

Reply 8 of 19, by sonik

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IlhanK wrote on 2020-02-26, 15:00:

Thanks! Using the first link it works for me. Also game runs in HD yay! 😁

Reply 9 of 19, by sonik

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IlhanK wrote on 2020-02-26, 15:00:

Anyone still have the files from the first link? I'm on windows 10 and after a fresh install I could not find it anymore and I cant have any FFB effect on the game.

Reply 10 of 19, by BaronSFel001

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I just noticed this topic revived several months ago thus I thought I'd at least belatedly answer the question posted in 2020: so far as my research at the time indicated (which I have not gone back to since I've already acquired all I planned) the only I-Force 1.0 device is the CH Force FX.

System 20: PIII 600, LAPC-I, AWE64, S220, Voodoo3, SQ2500, R200, 3.1-Me
System 21: G2030 3.0, X-fi Fatal1ty, GTX 560, XP-Vista
Retro gaming (among other subjects): https://baronsfel001.wixsite.com/my-site

Reply 11 of 19, by sonik

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BaronSFel001 wrote on 2022-08-23, 23:26:

I just noticed this topic revived several months ago thus I thought I'd at least belatedly answer the question posted in 2020: so far as my research at the time indicated (which I have not gone back to since I've already acquired all I planned) the only I-Force 1.0 device is the CH Force FX.

Reviving the topic again...

OP:
Got any additional info regarding the unique api game list?

On the Unique API topic:
I want to make a wrapper for iforce and iforce2.
There's any effort already on doing this?

And on the Need for Speed 2 topic:
I've made some code changes on zaps166's NFSIISE source port to fix some of the FFB problems on windows.
The game sends effects for two axis and windows (direct input) is not happy with it. Single axis device (wheel) needs single axis effects.
I don't know if this happens with any other but a custom dinput.dll can fix this.

Oh and I've found this:
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/programming/cop … tic-peripherals
It says that iforce2 is just a wrapper to DirectInput.
I don't get why iforce2 games does not work with any of my ffb devices then.

Reply 12 of 19, by BaronSFel001

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sonik wrote on 2023-03-08, 15:27:
OP: Got any additional info regarding the unique api game list? […]
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OP:
Got any additional info regarding the unique api game list?

On the Unique API topic:
I want to make a wrapper for iforce and iforce2.
There's any effort already on doing this?

And on the Need for Speed 2 topic:
I've made some code changes on zaps166's NFSIISE source port to fix some of the FFB problems on windows.
The game sends effects for two axis and windows (direct input) is not happy with it. Single axis device (wheel) needs single axis effects.
I don't know if this happens with any other but a custom dinput.dll can fix this.

Oh and I've found this:
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/programming/cop … tic-peripherals
It says that iforce2 is just a wrapper to DirectInput.
I don't get why iforce2 games does not work with any of my ffb devices then.

Sorry, I thought I pointed out the termination of my research due to acquiring all the information I was interested in. I glanced through this years-old topic and couldn't tell for sure if you're using a source port and/or wrappers in a modern version of Windows (or other OS) because if so I would expect a disconnect between DirectInput extensions and the transition to XInput. Fixes for vintage Direct3D and DirectSound support have been made over the years but I have no light to shed on DirectInput.

System 20: PIII 600, LAPC-I, AWE64, S220, Voodoo3, SQ2500, R200, 3.1-Me
System 21: G2030 3.0, X-fi Fatal1ty, GTX 560, XP-Vista
Retro gaming (among other subjects): https://baronsfel001.wixsite.com/my-site

Reply 13 of 19, by original_meusli

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Cheers for this, most helpful. I was able to grab a Force FX joystick from Ebay just this Christmas and before I saw it I had no idea of its existance. I have most of the MS Sidewinder Force Feedback products, so this sits nice with those. When I new what it was I knew I needed it(sorry Wifey).

Reply 14 of 19, by sonik

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Cool, thanks.
Anyone with old hardware can try the original nfs2se and describe or even make a video of how the ffb effects works on this game? I still have no idea if ffb was already broken back in the day.

The game Plane Crazy seems to use iforce2. It does have the dll on it's installed folder butI can't find any other info about it. Would also be interesting to know if it work with older devices.

My current goal is to (in order of difficulty/complexity):

1: Make a simple dinput wrapper that let me adjust the FFB gain. Some games does not have this feature and my Sidewinder uses the native windows driver that also does not let me adjust anything.
2: Make a dinput wrapper to intercept and fix the FFB commands of NFS2 and probably other games that sends 2 axis effects for single axis device.
3: Add option to use custom ffb effects to button triggers. This can be used to add ffb to non-ffb games. (the old Sidewinder driver had this feature)
4: Make a wrapper for iforce and iforce2.
Iforce1 wrapper can probably be added to something like dosbox later, like the Glide wrapper. I don't know if there's any ffb dos game that does not have a windows version.

OP: It's ok to use this thread for this research? It's the only one that appears on a internet search 😀
I can open a new one too if needed.

Reply 16 of 19, by sonik

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Thanks for doing this. Much appreciated!
I think only the Special Edition version features force feedback.
A quick google search for "need for speed 2 se" brings a download page for it. Super easy to get it just for testing.

At least on my Sidewinder Forcefeedback 2 usb joystick the games does some strange force effects. Like pulling it from side to side when clearly there's nothing going on on the car or the track.

Reply 17 of 19, by original_meusli

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sonik wrote on 2023-03-09, 13:35:
Thanks for doing this. Much appreciated! I think only the Special Edition version features force feedback. A quick google search […]
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Thanks for doing this. Much appreciated!
I think only the Special Edition version features force feedback.
A quick google search for "need for speed 2 se" brings a download page for it. Super easy to get it just for testing.

At least on my Sidewinder Forcefeedback 2 usb joystick the games does some strange force effects. Like pulling it from side to side when clearly there's nothing going on on the car or the track.

All setup to test this but I am getting a crash to desktop on Need for Speed SE, I will open a thread in the games section.

Reply 18 of 19, by sonik

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original_meusli wrote on 2023-03-12, 17:02:

All setup to test this but I am getting a crash to desktop on Need for Speed SE, I will open a thread in the games section.

Hi!
I've got your PM but I can't reply to it.
System shows this message: "We are sorry, but you are not authorized to use this feature."
Please let's move this discussion to a dedicated topic: Old ForceFeedBack api (IFORCE/IFORCE2)