VOGONS


First post, by Panties

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😎 😀

Hi all,

Okay, I have a Celeron 1200Mhz(in attachment) and I have P3 1Ghz Tualatin (which is on a Chinese Motherboard(no brand, no ISA) and it runs well)

Im interesting to build the 4 in one PC, just as :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcAqRbFFQPU

But, instead of AMD k6-3, im aim is to use either a Celeron or a P3 Processor.

My aim is to hit all 4 eras, in one PC(including MSDOS), and as for performance, just a decent performance will do. (Im happy if I can play Quake3 in 25fps... 🤣)

Don't worry about RAM, Graphic Card, HDD...etc.. I got that covered... just need advice on motherboard...

So, my question is.. 😊 😊
1. Which processor is capable to down-clock? P3? Celeron? or none? (are the speed unlocked? or their speed is "locked"?
2. Which motherboard do you recommend (Able to control processor Speed, Cheap, affordable and must have ISA slot!!! for DOS game, for Kingquest 3, Wing commander......)
3. If the Celeron or the P3, unable to downclock speed, to support older games...than, should I sell this processor in ebay? What should i do about it?

Appreciate your advice on this, Vogons Gurus!! 🤣 🤣

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Reply 1 of 9, by ODwilly

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Iirc the late via c3 is the best "fast" dos system. The chips are hard to find and the bios support of motherbords is as well. iirc

Main pc: Asus ROG 17. R9 5900HX, RTX 3070m, 16gb ddr4 3200, 1tb NVME.
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Reply 2 of 9, by The Serpent Rider

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Late C3 (Nenemiah) are not the best option for underclocking and I would say that it's so hard to find. Ezra/Ezra-T are better and there's plenty of those on ebay.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 3 of 9, by Revolter

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I've been tinkering with a similar setup for quite a while now for the similar purpose, so I'm going to share my experience with you.

The multipliers are locked on all Pentium 3 and Celeron CPUs, so the only methods of slowing them down are as follows:

1) Changing FSB frequency to lower values - ideally from 133 to 100 and 66 Mhz. Older DOS games work differently with L1 Cache disabled on different FSB frequencies;
2) Disabling L1 Cache on-demand - SetMul utility works like a charm, and you don't have to reboot and enter the BIOS setup to do this;
3) Using the chipset throttling capability via the Throttle.exe prorgam. It triggers the chipset to send a special signal to one of the CPU pins with a defined rate, and it skips certain amount of active cycles while remaining on the same physical frequency. The slower the processor - the better and smoother the slowdown is.

For example, if I want to make my 600/133/256 Pentium 3 to behave like a Pentium 1 - I switch the FSB to 66 Mhz (making it operate at 300 Mhz) via a mobo jumper, and then I load Throttle.exe with the "4 -c" switches (-c means keep L1 enabled, and 4 means skip 50% of the cycles) and have 150 Mhz effective frequency - which behaves very close to my original Pentium 1 according to the feel and benchmarks. If I want to play Wing Commander, Test Drive III and other 386-oriented games - I just lower the FSB to 66 or 100 and switch the L1 Cache off via SetMul. And If I want to go even slower (Digger, Defender, Battlezone - the XT stuff) - I go 66 FSB, disable the cache and set Throttle.exe to 7 (87.5% active cycles are skipped). And they all run nice, smooth and correct at least on Intel motherboards with this method (I'm waiting to receive a couple of VIA S370 boards to run some tests), and Celeron 800 (the one with 100 FSB and 8x multi) has worked for me, too.

Here is an example of Ultima 7 performance with FSB66 + "Throttle.exe 7" (as you may know, this game forces the L1 Cache to get enabled, and is one of the harder ones to get working properly) on my PC:

https://yadi.sk/i/A_EPVxrG3VL7Ed

I'm not sure if you'd get the same performance or smoothness with faster CPUs, however. Even the Throttle homepage says 800 Mhz or slower CPUs are recommended to get the best results.

Regarding the sound in DOS games - there are two routes:

1) Find a motherboard with the ISA slots;
2) Find a combination of PCI cards that outputs sound in all the games you're interested in (as no 100%-compatible single PCI cards exist).

For my project I chose to go with mATX motherboards (because of the extremely compact case), so I went the second route, but if the board size is not the issue - go the first route with ISA sound cards; your best bet is probably a later 440BX motherboard like the ASUS CUBX-L.

If you need the 2003+ performance without the slowdown drawbacks of a faster Pentium 3 - you can also go with a 478/775 Pentium 4 or Core 2 Duo CPU with an industrial ISA-equipped mobo. PARUS has a lot of experience on these:

CPU Tuning, Throttling

Celeron 800, 512MB, GeForce2 MX, ES1938S/DB S2, Windows ME/DOS 6.22

Reply 4 of 9, by Panties

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ODwilly wrote:

Iirc the late via c3 is the best "fast" dos system. The chips are hard to find and the bios support of motherbords is as well. iirc

Yeah, hard to find in Ebay... or lazada either....

The Serpent Rider wrote:

Late C3 (Nenemiah) are not the best option for underclocking and I would say that it's so hard to find. Ezra/Ezra-T are better and there's plenty of those on ebay.

I found one, but I have no clue/experience on VIA processor...
https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/Motherboard-Socke … nAAAOSwB0BbR7Tb

Is this the one? If yes, can it be down-clock?

Reply 5 of 9, by Panties

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Revolter wrote:
I've been tinkering with a similar setup for quite a while now for the similar purpose, so I'm going to share my experience with […]
Show full quote

I've been tinkering with a similar setup for quite a while now for the similar purpose, so I'm going to share my experience with you.

The multipliers are locked on all Pentium 3 and Celeron CPUs, so the only methods of slowing them down are as follows:

1) Changing FSB frequency to lower values - ideally from 133 to 100 and 66 Mhz. Older DOS games work differently with L1 Cache disabled on different FSB frequencies;
2) Disabling L1 Cache on-demand - SetMul utility works like a charm, and you don't have to reboot and enter the BIOS setup to do this;
3) Using the chipset throttling capability via the Throttle.exe prorgam. It triggers the chipset to send a special signal to one of the CPU pins with a defined rate, and it skips certain amount of active cycles while remaining on the same physical frequency. The slower the processor - the better and smoother the slowdown is.

For example, if I want to make my 600/133/256 Pentium 3 to behave like a Pentium 1 - I switch the FSB to 66 Mhz (making it operate at 300 Mhz) via a mobo jumper, and then I load Throttle.exe with the "4 -c" switches (-c means keep L1 enabled, and 4 means skip 50% of the cycles) and have 150 Mhz effective frequency - which behaves very close to my original Pentium 1 according to the feel and benchmarks. If I want to play Wing Commander, Test Drive III and other 386-oriented games - I just lower the FSB to 66 or 100 and switch the L1 Cache off via SetMul. And If I want to go even slower (Digger, Defender, Battlezone - the XT stuff) - I go 66 FSB, disable the cache and set Throttle.exe to 7 (87.5% active cycles are skipped). And they all run nice, smooth and correct at least on Intel motherboards with this method (I'm waiting to receive a couple of VIA S370 boards to run some tests), and Celeron 800 (the one with 100 FSB and 8x multi) has worked for me, too.

Here is an example of Ultima 7 performance with FSB66 + "Throttle.exe 7" (as you may know, this game forces the L1 Cache to get enabled, and is one of the harder ones to get working properly) on my PC:

https://yadi.sk/i/A_EPVxrG3VL7Ed

I'm not sure if you'd get the same performance or smoothness with faster CPUs, however. Even the Throttle homepage says 800 Mhz or slower CPUs are recommended to get the best results.

Regarding the sound in DOS games - there are two routes:

1) Find a motherboard with the ISA slots;
2) Find a combination of PCI cards that outputs sound in all the games you're interested in (as no 100%-compatible single PCI cards exist).

For my project I chose to go with mATX motherboards (because of the extremely compact case), so I went the second route, but if the board size is not the issue - go the first route with ISA sound cards; your best bet is probably a later 440BX motherboard like the ASUS CUBX-L.

If you need the 2003+ performance without the slowdown drawbacks of a faster Pentium 3 - you can also go with a 478/775 Pentium 4 or Core 2 Duo CPU with an industrial ISA-equipped mobo. PARUS has a lot of experience on these:

CPU Tuning, Throttling

Thanks for your advice. And I didn't know P4 or Core 2 Duo processor, do have motherboard with ISA slot, with them.. WOW..

naa.. I dont need 2003+ , era, i have other machine that can do that. 😀

thanks for the slowdown tips! I will try those slowdown software that you mentioned!

Your ultima looks like it is running on normal speed.... can't really tell if it is running on P3, instead it is running on P1! 😀

I found this on ebay:-
https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/ASUS-CUBX-L-Socke … TAAAOSwQQlbFa3G

and other alternatives, as well..:-
https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/Gateway-MP440BX-4 … 28AAOSw9sJZr8Ss

https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/Slot-1-motherboar … 8EAAOSwuwBbVNT7

I am interested to get the Turbo-BX because its the cheapest... 🤣..
But it is slot 1... 🙁 I have Socket 370 processor though...

Reply 6 of 9, by matze79

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Yeah but keep in mind that a PII will beat the shit out of a Samuel 2 VIA C3 its FPU is only driven half the clock of integer part.
Even RTCW had troubles running on a 800Mhz C3 with a V3 PCI 😁

https://www.retrokits.de - blog, retro projects, hdd clicker, diy soundcards etc
https://www.retroianer.de - german retro computer board

Reply 7 of 9, by Panties

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matze79 wrote:

Yeah but keep in mind that a PII will beat the shit out of a Samuel 2 VIA C3 its FPU is only driven half the clock of integer part.
Even RTCW had troubles running on a 800Mhz C3 with a V3 PCI 😁

Oooo.. Hmm...
Well, I just wanna use it to play games. I happen to have a Socket 370 Celeron processor.. and I wanna use that processor for DOS gaming.
😊 😊 But errm.... Need some guidance, to choose a Socket 370 motherboard or Slot 1 motherboard(which I dont think so, because Slot 1 is will not work with my Celeron 370 processor....) 😐

Reply 8 of 9, by The Serpent Rider

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Is this the one? If yes, can it be down-clock?

That's Ezra-T or Nenemiah core. Yes, you can underclock it with Setmul.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 9 of 9, by Panties

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The Serpent Rider wrote:

Is this the one? If yes, can it be down-clock?

That's Ezra-T or Nenemiah core. Yes, you can underclock it with Setmul.

Thanks Mate...
Looks like Im gonna get one of this, and sell off this Celeron... anybody wanna buy this Old Celeron? 😀