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Linux on old hardware?

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First post, by Hamby

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I've recently acquired a 286 mb, a 486 mb, and inadvertently a 386sx motherboard.

I'm planning on putting DOS 6.22/WFW 3.11 on the 286 and 486, respectively.

I was wondering what I could do with the 386sx, at the same time I was researching Dual Xeon motherboards for 3D design and rendering.
I'd decided on Linux if/when I get the Xeon system built... and that's when I wondered, "what's the earlier system I could set up running Linux decently?"

I've got some old CDs with some old Linux distros on them, and I think I can still download stuff like Damn Small Linux.

Anyone have any suggestion for Linux distributions or hardware I would need to run Linux on that 386SX? It only has ISA slots, so I guess I'd need a Soundblaster and an ISA video card... anyone have any ideas on the most powerful ISA (16 bit) video card I could get? I've an old Trident, with I think 2mb ram. then of course I'd need an old-Linux compatible network card (still isa).
Could I use a CF card for the hard drive with a Linux able to run on that machine?

Not sure how much ram it has, probably only a megabyte. How much would I need to add to be able to run Linux (I'd have to get a rampage card or something like that, as it has memory sockets but no memory slots.)

Anyway, I thought folks might like to discuss what the oldest possible hardware could be used to run Linux today? (I have a feeling Linux on old hardware would still be more functional than DOS...)

Reply 2 of 39, by elod

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Forget about ISA. If you care about graphics an S3 is best, on PCI or AGP.
There's also not much you can do under Linux. There were some ported games but a bit later (Soldier of Fortune era).
I'd rather try something a bit more odd but useful: OS/2.

Linux on old hardware is more like dysfunctional 😀. Remember that in DOS the software you run grabs all the hardware, the OS and it's (few) services do not matter as much. Not the case under Linux.
A Raspberry Pi easily beats anything you could build up to about Core2 territory.

Reply 3 of 39, by yawetaG

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FreeBSD has much better support for older hardware than most modern Linux distros (mostly because support is not removed from it like with Linux). Grab a liveCD version and try it on older systems. It should work with anything 486 and up.

Reply 4 of 39, by gdjacobs

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zstandig wrote:

Probably tinycore Linux or elks (http://elks.sourceforge.net/)

ELKS is pretty early, I believe, and a 286 is not usable for a Linux machine (the kernel needs 386 protected mode). MINIX 2 is doable on a 286, though, and some light OSes like Contiki might be viable (I don't know what modes it supports).

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 5 of 39, by stamasd

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With only 1MB RAM, you can forget about running Linux. It won't work. 16MB should be about the bare minimum you need for that. 1MB won't even fit an ancient kernel image. Maybe you can scrape by with 8MB, but it will be slow as hell. The Rampage won't help, that will give you expanded memory but for Linux you need extended memory, and enough of it. I think the memory is your limiting factor here, not the 386, ISA etc.

The lowest spec computer I ever ran Linux on was a 486DX50 (yes, the non-clock-doubled one) with 32MB or RAM. It was usable. I was using Slackware 3.6, my first Linux distribution, cca. 1998 or so.

Despite what elod said above, you can get a pretty functional desktop on Linux with an ISA video card. Even a basic Trident card will do for that. Of course you will need a desktop manager without bells and whistles. I suggest WindowMaker https://www.windowmaker.org/ - a version is included with Slackware 3.6 if you decide to go with that.

Last edited by stamasd on 2018-08-08, 20:41. Edited 2 times in total.

I/O, I/O,
It's off to disk I go,
With a bit and a byte
And a read and a write,
I/O, I/O

Reply 6 of 39, by dionb

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elod wrote:

Forget about ISA. If you care about graphics an S3 is best, on PCI or AGP.

On a 386SX? Please do tell us where to get a 386SX motherboard with PCI and AGP 😵

There's also not much you can do under Linux. There were some ported games but a bit later (Soldier of Fortune era).

There is more in life than games alone. That said, three letters: MUD. People were gaming on Unix before the first PC was made. No, don't expect flashy graphics, but once again, this is a 386SX...

I'd rather try something a bit more odd but useful: OS/2.

More useful than Linux? The whole idea of running Linux is running a modern OS on the old hardware. OS/2 is long dead. Good fun though - my first PC was a 386-16 and ran OS2 1.1.

Linux on old hardware is more like dysfunctional 😀. Remember that in DOS the software you run grabs all the hardware, the OS and it's (few) services do not matter as much. Not the case under Linux.

Resources are an issue. However if you keep it really minimal, that's not as bad as it sounds, particularly as there is no irritating 640k limit in conventional memory to contend with.

A Raspberry Pi easily beats anything you could build up to about Core2 territory.

Yes. Just like a modern i7 beats the pants off anything we play around with here. So what...?

Anyway, 10 years ago I would have thoroughly supported the idea of running a current Linux distro on a 386. Unfortunately the world has moved on. As of Linux kernel 3.7 (from 2012), Linux no longer supports anything older than a 486. This was mainly done because optimising SMP was almost impossible while keeping the old 386 working. Outside of the kernel, glibc (the big C library pretty much everyone and everything uses) also dropped the 386 around this time and modern versions even require i686 (Pentium Pro or later). Oh, and modern kernels, glibc and (worst of all) systemd are hugely bloated and wouldn't sensibly run on the sort of resources (particularly RAM) you have on an old beast.

That means that with Linux you'll have to run dated software too on that machine. Fortunately it's not as bad as it sounds, as older versions of the kernel are still maintained (so just as exploit-free as modern stuff, if not more so) and there are low-footprint alternatives to glibc such as uClibc. And SystemVinit still works fine. But you're deep in embedded world with this sort of setup, so don't expect 'it just works' like Ubuntu - just installing an OS would be a software project. If you manage that though, you'd have something very similar in capabilities to a modern low-end consumer router, but with more I/O and storage options, albeit with slower network hardware (ISA isn't exactly going to give you line speed 100Mbps, let alone 1Gbps).

Compared to the CPU + software side, ISA cards are a breeze. The Linux kernel basically still supports everything out there it ever did, so getting an old NE2000 NIC working should be peanuts - at least assuming it has decent jumpers and not some DOS-based tool to set parameters in EEPROM.

There's more out there than just Linux though. I particularly like NetBSD on old, limited hardware. It's very lightweight, very functional and installation is dead easy. Unfortunately it also dropped 386 long ago, so pre-486 you'll need something else, and I'm at a bit of a loss to say what.

By the way, if you do decide to do an old OS, and want something Unix-like, the obvious answer for a 386 is Xenix, Microsoft's own Unix, which in the late 1980s was by far the most common Unix variant measured by the number of machines installed.

Edit:

stamasd wrote:

With only 1MB RAM, you can forget about running Linux. It won't work. 16MB should be about the bare minimum you need for that. 1MB won't even fit an ancient kernel image. Maybe you can scrape by with 8MB, but it will be slow as hell. The Rampage won't help, that will give you expanded memory but for Linux you need extended memory, and enough of it. I think the memory is your limiting factor here, not the 386, ISA etc.

1MB needs upgrading, urgently. But a 386SX can handle 16MB RAM, which would be more than enough. Even 8MB would be fine for a really minimal system, so even if that board only has two SIMM slots it's doable.

The lowest spec computer I ever ran Linux on was a 486DX50 (yes, the non-clock-doubled one) with 32MB or RAM. It was usable. I was using Slackware 3.6, my first Linux distribution, cca. 1996 or so.

When I met my partner she was running pretty much the same stuff on exactly the same hardware 😘

That was quite a few years later though, around 2003. We were poor students with ancient give-aways. On our second date I installed NetBSD on a 486 laptop while she was slashing away at some rogue-like game on her PC.

Despite what elod said above, you can get a pretty functional desktop on Linux with an ISA video card. Even a basic Trident card will do for that. Of course you will need a desktop manager withhout bells and whistles. I suggest WindowMaker https://www.windowmaker.org/ - a version is included with Slackware 3.6 if you decide to go with that.

I wouldn't recommend using a graphical environment on such a limited system. X is pretty bloated, and regardless of the VGA hardware, the CPU just doesn't have the oomph and you can't spare the RAM. I'd agree Windowmaker is the best of the really lightweight window managers, but I woudn't want to run it on less than an AM386DX-40 or i486DX/SX33.

Last edited by dionb on 2018-08-08, 20:50. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 7 of 39, by stamasd

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dionb wrote:

On a 386SX? Please do tell us where to get a 386SX motherboard with PCI and AGP 😵

🤣 I was thinking the same. Maybe we can find one with PCIe and stick a GTX1080 in it.

I/O, I/O,
It's off to disk I go,
With a bit and a byte
And a read and a write,
I/O, I/O

Reply 8 of 39, by dionb

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stamasd wrote:
dionb wrote:

On a 386SX? Please do tell us where to get a 386SX motherboard with PCI and AGP 😵

🤣 I was thinking the same. Maybe we can find one with PCIe and stick a GTX1080 in it.

Alaris did some pretty nifty work with their Blue Lightning boards. Maybe they got into a time-warp and did a version of the Leopard with PCIe3.0 instead of VLB, plus USB 3.1 and a nice UEFI to make sure that all works 🤣

Reply 9 of 39, by mcfly

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About running modern Linux distribution on 486 http://yeokhengmeng.com/2018/01/make-the-486-great-again/ 11 minutes start and 5 to shutdown. I wouldn't like to wait that long 😀. 386 and 486 support does not look so bright these days, for example Debian also dropped 486 support (among many others). How about some early distributions like Slackware 1.0/2.0 for example. Never tried it though, but may be worth checking. There are plethora of old 1 floppy disk distributions, very limited in software but still can be used. Regarding NetBSD, they say here: https://www.netbsd.org/ports/i386/hardware.html it is for 486+ CPU, and 4MB RAM is a minimum, so even ignoring CPU requirements for 1MB you have to look something older. There is also MenuetOS, 1 floppy assembly OS, but it is 686+ only (unfortunately).

Reply 10 of 39, by dionb

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There"s a huge difference between 386 and 486 when it comes to support. With a 486 you have lots of options, with a 386 it gets tricky. You can upgrade the RAM, but not solve the architecture issues.

Reply 11 of 39, by mcfly

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dionb wrote:

There"s a huge difference between 386 and 486 when it comes to support. With a 486 you have lots of options, with a 386 it gets tricky. You can upgrade the RAM, but not solve the architecture issues.

Of course it is, never tried to imply it is otherwise. Linus himself was in opinion that maintaining 386 line in kernel requires a lot of hacks, because it was an old code and complexity of the whole kernel raised dramatically both in size and diversity through years. I've just given some examples that running modern Linux/Unix distribution might not be a pleasant example. There was a project for running custom version of Linux on PIC microchip which took like few hours to boot - I mean who will try so stop a very motivate individual? I merely suggest that OP should install something period correct. Just like in Microsoft world installing Windows 95 on 486 may be OK, but Windows 98 not so much in terms of speed.

Example: BasicLinux https://distro.ibiblio.org/baslinux/, will run on 386, but minimum RAM required is 3MB.
More: in here http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~thelinuxguy/small_ … _linux/all.html

Reply 12 of 39, by Scali

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dionb wrote:

By the way, if you do decide to do an old OS, and want something Unix-like, the obvious answer for a 386 is Xenix, Microsoft's own Unix, which in the late 1980s was by far the most common Unix variant measured by the number of machines installed.

Yup, Xenix was the first UNIX version available for the 386, in 1987.
Also, there are versions of Xenix that even run on 8088-286 machines.
Xenix was the 'original' x86 UNIX distribution.

http://scalibq.wordpress.com/just-keeping-it- … ro-programming/

Reply 14 of 39, by lolo799

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I have the exact thread for you Hamby, and the others too, though you can leave Xenix out:
Retro OSes for retro computers

You can run Linux with only 4MB, but yes it will be an old kernel.

PCMCIA Sound, Storage & Graphics

Reply 15 of 39, by Jo22

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What about Kernal 2.4 ? In the 2000s, I've seen it running on a lot of hardware that could be found on a rubbish dump.
Back then the slogan was "Linux requires good hardware"., which was equal to obsolete pre-USB hardware.
You know, 386, 486 and early 586.. But maxed out (which was quite a contradiction in itself).

Looking backwards, it is funny that people still claim that Linux has "improved" in the past years.
The only thing I noticed, is, that it's requirements were -and are- constantly huge in comparison to a current Windows release.
I'm no friend of Win10, but it can still run on late 90s-/early 2000s hardware, whereas Linux still is a huge memory and storage
hog in terms of requirements (I'm talking about a full distro, not running a Linux kernal w/ a shell in text mode).
Back then, I used to run Win98 on a 586 with 75MHz, 16MB and a 500MB IDE HDD and it ran smoothly.
Old Linux from SuSe and other distros (EasyLinux ?) required about the twice of memory for basic operation (or a huge swap partition).
And once it ran, about the the best that it could do was running the screen saver.

Anyway, nothing againts unixoide OSes. Minix, BSD and even Darwin are quite good in their own rights.
Just Linux is.. Well.. Being Linux. 😉

Edit: typos fixed (some).

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 16 of 39, by dionb

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Agreed. I recently wanted to test some P3-era hardware and downloaded the latest Knoppix to do so. Did it work? Nope, it needed at least SSE2, so refused to run on my SSE1 P3...

And then you have systemd, which is megalithic and has become almost an OS-in-an-OS.

Call me a cantankerous old bugger, but the whole Unix philosophy - which Linux used to espouse - is to keep it simple and do things with the most minimal tools needed. If you want complex, you can add as many of those as you want (Knoppix being a fine example from day 1), but you can always go back down to the very bare minimum if you want. That's what made Linux fundamentlally faster and more stable than Windows in the bad old days.

I'm not arguing with the desire to add all kind of fancy features - for media/desktop use I use lots of them on my Linux systems too - but the removing of even the option of running without them, and the creating of massive mega-daemons to do multiple tasks in a single environment rather than just stringing together simple tools that each can only do one thing, but do that one thing well.

Of course, Linux being Linux, there are always distros that let you get rid of all that cruft, but as they are marginal (Devuan, Artix - or Gentoo / LFS yourself...) things like stability and continuity are not assured, and in any event the ecosystem gets even more fragmented 🙁

As for the higher storage requirements of Linux distros - that really depends on the distro, and is more indicative of some very baroque distros than anything else. If you want a fair comparison with Windows you need to install equivalent Windows software too, which will take up significantly more space than just the bare OS. Unlike the CPU architecture stuff this can easily be avoided by choosing a nice bare distro. Doing a Debian minimal install and then only adding the programs you actually need (even if they pull in X and Gnome as dependencies) still gives you a lean OS. That was best practice 20 years ago and still is really.

Reply 17 of 39, by Jo22

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Yeah, I guess that's right. When I think of old Linuxes, a huge box with a "collection" of 7 to 10 CDs comes to mind.
Most of which are optional packages, of couse. Including covering more sophisticated topics like astronomy or ham radio.
That being said, if memory serves, the core system required the first 3 CDs, still.

I loved Knoppix, too, by the time when it still had that KDE 3 window manager..
I guess because I found the optics more creative than that of the very common Win2K and XP/Luna themes most PCs had.
At the time, the distro of Knoppix I was most familiar with was AFU Knoppix (for ham radio).
It even included two kernals, I believe. 2.4 (w/ ISA and things like SB16 support) and the -then new- Kernal 2.6.

Anyway, I have nothing against Linux at its core (pun intended). The Kernal is fine, though a bit err. chubby. 😀
That's why I try to avoid to tinker with old routers or Raspberry Pis that are equipped with a low amount of RAM.

Edit: Edited.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 18 of 39, by Firtasik

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Huge resource hogs. 🤣

Xubuntu 18.04.1 (x64) on my Athlon 64 with 1.5 GB of RAM eats about 300 MB of RAM.

Raspbian Stretch on my Raspberry Pi Model B+ with 512 MB of RAM eats about 60 MB of RAM. Without the X11 but with additional services: CUPS, nginx, Samba, Fail2Ban, Tvheadend, Murmur, vsftpd.

Tested after rebooting.

11 1 111 11 1 1 1 1 1 11 1 1 111 1 111 1 1 1 1 111

Reply 19 of 39, by yawetaG

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dionb wrote:

And then you have systemd, which is megalithic and has become almost an OS-in-an-OS.

The BSD's are fortunately still SystemD-free... 😎