shamino wrote:

I wonder if the lot of cards you purchased might be hacked or fakes. What I mean by "hacked" is that some sleazebags will reprogram CF/SD/etc cards to report more capacity than they actually have, and then resell them as larger drives. Eventually they corrupt themselves because they're trying to put 10lbs of storage addresses in a 5lb bag.

Hacked flash devices exist and I once read complaints about such. That's why it's advised to purchase flash devices from authentic sellers. But I don't really think there are *that* many. Most likely some IDE functions not useful for their intended scope of usage (such as cameras), but useful when using it as hard drive (one unfortunate example that I have found, would be the ability to correctly report their size in BIOS), were not properly implemented in commercial-grade, "removable" CF cards to keep their price low.

Recent SanDisk CF cards were notorious in this matter, that's why I advised to avoid those. I've a couple of those cards and none worked right. Such card would work just fine in a USB card reader, but when using it as an IDE hard drive, the BIOS hardly ever see them in the correct size, or behave properly. One 64GB SanDisk card of mine even gone crazier: Windows sees only 32GB. Linux can see the entire 64GB. If formatted under Windows (as 32GB), it appeared just fine under Linux, with the remaining 32GB unallocated. But if I touched the partition table under Linux (like resizing or creating new partitions), Windows would no longer recognize the disk and instead, it presents itself as having a 32GB "unformatted" partition, and there's nothing to stop you from formatting it by accident.

shamino wrote:

However, I'm really thinking of SSDs here. I don't know how dumb CF cards are. If they have a more fixed mapping between LBA -> physical Flash, and can't map the locations with as much flexibility as I'm assuming, then maybe they don't respond as well to this.

How wear leveling and TRIM functionalities are implemented depends on the manufacturer. Some implement those features better than others. I think industrial-grade CF cards are probably better in those aspects, as the manufacturers probably would have those functionalities properly implemented for use with industrial embedded systems, that they can be classified as SSDs using CF as the form factor.

Also notable is the nasty issue of filesystem/partition alignment. While NTFS can be placed nicely in matching pieces,
FAT and FAT32 are another matter.

Is it make sense to use extFat filesystem? I noticed that formatter tools (like SD Formatter) has this option but I don't know if it's compatible with Android OS.

kalgari wrote:

Also notable is the nasty issue of filesystem/partition alignment. While NTFS can be placed nicely in matching pieces,
FAT and FAT32 are another matter.

Is it make sense to use extFat filesystem? I noticed that formatter tools (like SD Formatter) has this option but I don't know if it's compatible with Android OS.

If you're referring to smartphones (usually microSD) then it depends on the manufacturer.

If you're referring to Android-x86, however, then no, don't use it. You can use ext4 if it's meant to be system/data partition, but only FAT32 is usable if the partition is to be treated as an external SD card.

While FAT32 can support up to 2TB, M$ purposedly limited the ability to format anything above 32GB as FAT32 under Windows. (the knowledge base link's long dead)

Tiido wrote on 2018-09-19, 04:00:

They're not meant to drive long cables like IDE HDDs are made to drive

Just wanted to add, I’ve used many, many CF cards in lots of machines from 386 up to Pent4 and I’ve only ever had one issue- write errors with large ish file copies (over 100mb).

It was a large case so I was using a 36” IDE cable. I read this, switched to a shorter 18” cable and never had an issue again. Thank you Tiido and hope this helps anyone out there whom was lead here via google or whatever.

Just wanted to add that my experience with CF cards have been exactly those as described by OP. I have purchased brand new compact flash cards from Amazon, multiple brands such as Kingston, Sandisk and Verbatim, with sizes ranging from 512Mb to 32Gb. Some of these cards were used just once, others were just opened from their box then stored in a sealed container. However, after certain time of being stored, they all stop working - do not get recognized in any of CF card readers, or CF-to-IDE adapters. The time required for each particular CF card seems random - for some it was less than a year, for others a couple of years, but eventually they all died, including completely new ones.

My theory is also similar to OP, so boils down to:

1. The cells in CF cards degrade over time - not because of write cycles, but simply with time. So even if you've never used the card before, if you leave it alone, it'll just die eventually.
2. As CF have many small holes for connection, those contacts may also degrade with time, so eventually the connection becomes loose.

I don't think other reasons mentioned here such as write cycles or poor quality CF-to-IDE adapters are valid. In my case, all my CF cards were brand new, purchased from a reliable source (Amazon) and from well-known brands; CF-to-IDE adapters that I've tried actually have very little circuitry: you can check this yourself, these adapters just "channel" connections from CF card to IDE connector, the only components they have soldered are typically a capacitor and a couple of resistors, none of which would really be that critical to CF card.

My guess is that most CF cards use some cheap/poor quality cells, so they have limited lifespan. Maybe manufacturers even intentionally use cheap materials to limit the lifespan, so you have to constantly buy new ones after certain time. My observation is based on the same experience with Gillette shaving blades - when you buy new ones, open the box and store them, sealed or not, for a couple of months, brand new blades lose their edge eventually.

So as original poster said, I don't understand why CF are advertised everywhere for retro builds, as in my experience, these have been really bad options. My recommendation to everyone is either NOT to buy CF cards and CF-to-IDE adapters AT ALL, simply avoid this option altogether; and if you already bought some, then abuse these cards to maximum while they still work: use them for swap storage, or as storage for temporary files, etc. Just make sure to backup any data so you won't rely on the card.

A better alternative seems to be SD-to-IDE adapters - I had only two of those, but at least SD cards don't seem to die out of nothing because of age. So far none of my SD cards have. I have many SD cards that I use intensively (in Raspberry PI, Odroid and other devices), while others are stored, some as old as 15 years. However, these seem to be quite slow, and I suspect that limited write cycles could become a problem there eventually. So I would use them only for DOS and older motherboards, like those with ~500Mb hard drive limit.

I also had success with IDE-to-SATA adapters on most my builds, ranging from 486 to Pentium 4, both for hard disks and CDROMs. I only use IDE2SAT2 and PATA2SATA3 from Startech. So far this seems to be the only long-term solution (other than using actual IDE mechanical drives). Unfortunately, not all motherboards recognize these adapters - sometimes disabling UltraDMA mode in BIOS, if such option is available, helps.

I've had a wholly positive experience with CF cards. I've been using both recently manufactured cards (Verbatim) and older cards (Cisco, Sandisk) without any card-related issues.

For example, I have a 32MB Sandisk card I got with a digital camera decades ago and had never used. A couple years ago I tried it with a CF-to-IDE adapter to install DOS on a PC, and it worked perfectly fine.

While electronics can degrade over time for various reasons, this hasn't been my experience with CF cards. They've been highly reliable for me including cards that are decades old.

For people who are experiencing degradation, I wonder if it could be influenced by climate, storage, adapter quality, or some other factor.

edited to add:

I also should mention I always stick to regular speed CF cards. I don't use anything designed for high speed (e.g. "ultra" cards). Once I found specific makes and models that work, I stick to those.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-03-02, 20:02:

For people who are experiencing degradation, I wonder if it could be influenced by climate, storage, adapter quality, or some other factor.

My cards have been stored in a sealed, protected container, in semi-dry climate, ambient temperature around ~20 C. So climate is not a factor.

Adapter quality is also not a factor, because even new CF card that was never used - no longer works either in CF card readers or adapters. Also, please search for Startech CF-to-IDE adapter (35BAYCF2IDE), watch on photo with top view: the connection from CF to IDE cable is direct, there is a capacitor and a couple of resistors for the front LED, there is no other circuitry. So adapter quality is not an issue.

Furthermore, I'm using only high-tier power supplies, so this should rule out any issues related to supply voltage.

Regarding my theory #2, where the issue could be degradation of connectors, I was thinking to try at some point pouring liquid metal (don't really know any good options, maybe Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut?) into dead CF's holes and then trying to connect it, to see if that would revive it. Previously, I've already tried some anti-corrosive agents that worked for me before on PCI connectors, but this didn't help to revive CF.

I also tried to open one CF to see if I could somehow solder it directly to CF-to-IDE adapter (again, assuming the problem is connectivity), but it wasn't compatible and got severely damaged in the process.

ykot wrote on 2024-03-02, 23:01:

My cards have been stored in a sealed, protected container, in semi-dry climate, ambient temperature around ~20 C. So climate is […]
Show full quote

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-03-02, 20:02:

For people who are experiencing degradation, I wonder if it could be influenced by climate, storage, adapter quality, or some other factor.

My cards have been stored in a sealed, protected container, in semi-dry climate, ambient temperature around ~20 C. So climate is not a factor.

Adapter quality is also not a factor, because even new CF card that was never used - no longer works either in CF card readers or adapters. Also, please search for Startech CF-to-IDE adapter (35BAYCF2IDE), watch on photo with top view: the connection from CF to IDE cable is direct, there is a capacitor and a couple of resistors for the front LED, there is no other circuitry. So adapter quality is not an issue.

Furthermore, I'm using only high-tier power supplies, so this should rule out any issues related to supply voltage.

Regarding my theory #2, where the issue could be degradation of connectors, I was thinking to try at some point pouring liquid metal (don't really know any good options, maybe Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut?) into dead CF's holes and then trying to connect it, to see if that would revive it. Previously, I've already tried some anti-corrosive agents that worked for me before on PCI connectors, but this didn't help to revive CF.

I also tried to open one CF to see if I could somehow solder it directly to CF-to-IDE adapter (again, assuming the problem is connectivity), but it wasn't compatible and got severely damaged in the process.

It seems highly usual to have cards stored in sealed containers and not exposed to excess humidity to spontaneously fail.

As I said have decades-old cards that I didn't bother to even store properly and they still work fine.

Is there may be something else in how you're using them? Flash devices can be damaged with improper usage (e.g. improper insertion or removal when in use). You're not inserting or removing these cards with the system running by chance?

Insofar as degradation of the connectors, that's certainly possible. Corrosion can impact metal over time, but this would imply that there is a moisture source or something leading to that corrosion.

This topic made me curious to dig out the oldest Compact Flash card I believe I have.

It's a 32MB Canon-branded SanDisk card. It originally came with a Canon PowerShot camera I got in 2004. The back label even has a 2002 copyright date.

About 2 years ago I set it up as storage in a Tandy 1000 HX computer. That Tandy computer has been in my closet for over a year.

I just took it out, powered it on, and it booted up just fine. Ran check disk and it reported no issues. Tried playing some games and it seems to be working just fine.

I realize this is only a single piece of anecdotal evidence, but it is still a 20 year old CF card that is working today without noticeable issues.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-03-03, 00:20:

It seems highly usual to have cards stored in sealed containers and not exposed to excess humidity to spontaneously fail.

I do the same for all sensitive electronics components that I have, and these ESD-safe containers can be purchased online quite easily. By "sealed" I don't mean that they are hermetically sealed, but well enclosed, and you can put a couple of silica packets, e.g. Integra Boost, just to be safe.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-03-03, 00:20:

Is there may be something else in how you're using them? Flash devices can be damaged with improper usage (e.g. improper insertion or removal when in use). You're not inserting or removing these cards with the system running by chance?

[sacrasm]Yes, I first connect them to my 1600 volt generator module used to power radiation tubes, before trying to use in an expensive retro build.[/sarcasm]
Seriously though, why does it matter if the card dies just by being left alone, stored, not used? I can't explain why in your case it works fine, maybe your card is older so it wasn't such poor quality, I don't know. But I've purchased at minimum a dozen of such cards, only to realize that none of them work anymore. I am quite frustrated by this because if they wouldn't have been so heavily advertised for retro builds, I would have spent this money on something else. I bought first one of these specifically for a retro build around 2014 - back then, it was easier to find some good mechanical IDE drives (for instance, laptop IDE drives that were still new), now is more difficult and they are usually more expensive.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-03-03, 00:34:

This topic made me curious to dig out the oldest Compact Flash card I believe I have.

Similarly, attached a random photo of some CF cards that I'm talking about.

ykot wrote on 2024-03-03, 00:54:

Seriously though, why does it matter if the card dies just by being left alone, stored, not used? I can't explain why in your case it works fine, maybe your card is older so it wasn't such poor quality, I don't know. But I've purchased at minimum a dozen of such cards, only to realize that none of them work anymore. I am quite frustrated by this because if they wouldn't have been so heavily advertised for retro builds, I would have spent this money on something else. I bought first one of these specifically for a retro build around 2014 - back then, it was easier to find some good mechanical IDE drives (for instance, laptop IDE drives that were still new), now is more difficult and they are usually more expensive.

I understand this is very frustrating. I'm not trying to accuse you of doing anything wrong necessarily, I just want to rule out potential causes of these issues you are having. It is unusual to have multiple cards die especially from non-use.

It could just be bad luck, maybe bad batches of cards, or maybe there is some other factor?

Similarly, attached a random photo of some CF cards that I'm talking about.

I haven't used those Kingston or Lexar cards. I've have used Verbatim cards since 2022 without issues. One of the cards I use as my main test bench drives is a 4GB Verbatim branded card. I figure if any card I have is going to die, it's that one since it's the one I use the most. But I've used it extensively with no issues thus far.

I've attached a picture of the main card brands I use. I stick to Cisco branded industrial cards and the red-blue label SanDisk cards for XT to 486 systems. For Pentium systems I've been using the Verbatim cards. I've got over a dozen CF cards that I've set up and used in various builds.

I also have a collection of other branded cards, but I haven't tested them extensively. I did try a Wintec card once, but while it worked, it also was incredibly slow compared to similar SanDisk cards.

A lot of the smaller cards I bought in used lots, so they already have some wear 'n tear on them. But they generally have worked, at least insofar as the SanDisk and Cisco cards go.

The worst part is that I actually bought quite many of the cards that I've mentioned, spending considerable fortune on it, at least as far as my economy is concerned. My idea was to have a long-term solution for storage, plus convenience on most retro builds that have BIOS limits on hard disk size, so no need to use drive overlay software. In contrast to OP, my CF cards were all new from good brands. Actually, I do have a couple of very recent ones that haven't failed yet, but I'm skeptical.

The purpose of my post is not to start a discussion on "why" CFs might be failing, but to confirm the findings of OP that it's not an isolated case. In some other thread, I've also read a comment from someone saying exactly the same, that all of his/her CF cards failed eventually, but don't remember what thread was it. If someone has similar experience, it would be interesting to hear it.

At some point, I do intend to try the liquid metal solution to see whether "dead" CF cards can be revived this way, and would appreciate any suggestions on any liquid metal products that could be useful in this a rather risky experiment.

Never had a problem with CF cards. Used them in dozens of machines from XT to P54c. Always used the cheapo eBay CF adapters of all form factors. I always use Verbatim or Sandisk cards.

Problems encountered were ALWAYS a BIOS issue or physical problem on the mobo. One time I had a CF card that always got the contents mangled. Turned out there was a tiny solder whisker between two pins of the IDE header.

Jo22 wrote on 2018-09-19, 06:10:

No issues with CF cards so far.. I'm using quality CF-IDE adapters with voltage regulators and cheap ones (with diodes added manually).

Diodes are not the solution. The forward voltage drop of a diode changes with forward current. The Vf in the datasheet is only valid at the one testing current. If you go further down in the datasheet you will find the graph of forward voltage drop vs forward current.

So as the CF card current consumption varies the voltage will also be going up and down.

ykot wrote on 2024-03-02, 19:39:

1. The cells in CF cards degrade over time - not because of write cycles, but simply with time. So even if you've never used the card before, if you leave it alone, it'll just die eventually.

Physically not the case. Charge slowly dissipates. Oldest CF cards were SLC (single level cell) and it can take >10 years for the recording to start being unreliable without being rewritten. More modern MLC (multiple but usually means two)/TLC(triple)/QLC(quad, absolute garbage) lower this number dramatically with some TLC starting to lose data after _few months_ while unpowered!
Only write cycles (that also means internal bookkeeping performed by FTL firmware moving data around) degrades actual physical silicon NAND cells.

ykot wrote on 2024-03-02, 19:39:

purchased from a reliable source (Amazon)

sorry, what? 🤣

ykot wrote on 2024-03-02, 19:39:

My guess is that most CF cards use some cheap/poor quality cells, so they have limited lifespan. Maybe manufacturers even intentionally use cheap materials to limit the lifespan, so you have to constantly buy new ones after certain time. My observation is based on the same experience with Gillette shaving blades - when you buy new ones, open the box and store them, sealed or not, for a couple of months, brand new blades lose their edge eventually.

above is valid for all purchases from Amazon, bot doesnt generalize to CF cards

ykot wrote on 2024-03-02, 19:39:

A better alternative seems to be SD-to-IDE adapters - I had only two of those, but at least SD cards don't seem to die out of nothing because of age.

SD cards are even bigger minefield with many more shady fly by night counterfeit manufacturers
https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=1022
30C3: The Exploration and Exploitation of an SD Memory Card (EN) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruEn7TE4YMM

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:06:

More modern MLC (multiple but usually means two)/TLC(triple)/QLC(quad, absolute garbage) lower this number dramatically with some TLC starting to lose data after _few months_ while unpowered!

Yes, this is what I was referring to.
Edit: actually, regarding TLC losing data after few months - this is quite interesting, could you provide a reference to the source of your information?

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:06:

ykot wrote on 2024-03-02, 19:39:

purchased from a reliable source (Amazon)

sorry, what? 🤣

You are probably referring to third-party sellers. No, I meant sold and sent by Amazon itself. Can you suggest a more reputable reseller?

ykot wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:21:

Yes, this is what I was referring to. Edit: actually, regarding TLC losing data after few months - this is quite interesting, co […]
Show full quote

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:06:

More modern MLC (multiple but usually means two)/TLC(triple)/QLC(quad, absolute garbage) lower this number dramatically with some TLC starting to lose data after _few months_ while unpowered!

Yes, this is what I was referring to.
Edit: actually, regarding TLC losing data after few months - this is quite interesting, could you provide a reference to the source of your information?

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:06:

ykot wrote on 2024-03-02, 19:39:

purchased from a reliable source (Amazon)

sorry, what? 🤣

You are probably referring to third-party sellers. No, I meant sold and sent by Amazon itself. Can you suggest a more reputable reseller?

These days you can get grey market stuff from anywhere. Bit of a minefield.

ykot wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:21:

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:06:

More modern MLC (multiple but usually means two)/TLC(triple)/QLC(quad, absolute garbage) lower this number dramatically with some TLC starting to lose data after _few months_ while unpowered!

Yes, this is what I was referring to.

that will only affect data in cold storage

ykot wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:21:

Edit: actually, regarding TLC losing data after few months - this is quite interesting, could you provide a reference to the source of your information?

I should probably word it differently, "losing charge". There is still some time between less reliable read and lost data. Good example was samsung 840 https://www.extremetech.com/computing/190746- … -fix-on-the-way samsung finally released a "Performance Restoration Tool" and firmware update forcing those drives to aggressively refresh old data https://pcper.com/2014/10/samsung-updates-840 … storation-tool/
850 EVO same problems despite 3D V-NAND https://goughlui.com/2016/11/08/note-samsung- … ce-degradation/
It can also go horribly wrong like Chinese attempts at fabbing modern silicon https://goughlui.com/2023/10/10/psa-ssds-with … heck-your-ssds/

ykot wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:21:

rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-03, 03:06:

ykot wrote on 2024-03-02, 19:39:

purchased from a reliable source (Amazon)

sorry, what? 🤣

You are probably referring to third-party sellers. No, I meant sold and sent by Amazon itself. Can you suggest a more reputable reseller?

Even items sold by Amazon itself are comingled with general inventory. Amazon DGAF.

kingcake wrote on 2024-03-03, 02:32:

Jo22 wrote on 2018-09-19, 06:10:

No issues with CF cards so far.. I'm using quality CF-IDE adapters with voltage regulators and cheap ones (with diodes added manually).

Diodes are not the solution. The forward voltage drop of a diode changes with forward current. The Vf in the datasheet is only valid at the one testing current. If you go further down in the datasheet you will find the graph of forward voltage drop vs forward current.

So as the CF card current consumption varies the voltage will also be going up and down.

Good point, taken. Thanks.

I've checked the interwebs and it seems that certain CF cards are more vulnerable to power fluctuations.

In addition, Compact Flash cards for the consumer market are often based on battery-powered systems. Batterie- powered systems s […]
Show full quote

In addition, Compact Flash cards for the consumer market are often based on battery-powered systems. Batterie-
powered systems such as notebooks, digital cameras, etc. mean that abrupt voltage drops do generally not occur.
This is not the case with industrial applications without UPS.
At the same time, most CF cards perform active “wear leveling“ in order to distribute the memory wear evenly on the
card.
If a voltage drop occurs during critical write phases, faults up to total failures may occur on many Compact Flash
cards.
For this reason, great value is placed on the Power OFF ruggedness when selecting CF cards.

https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/1 … lash_en-enu.pdf

By contrast, industrial cards seem to support various voltages.

Industrial CompactFlash (CF) cards are designed to operate in demanding and rugged environments. Key features that make them sui […]
Show full quote

Industrial CompactFlash (CF) cards are designed to operate in demanding and rugged environments. Key features that make them suitable for such conditions include:

1. **Temperature Range:** Industrial CF cards are built to withstand extreme temperature variations, both high and low, making them suitable for applications in harsh climates.

2. **Shock and Vibration Resistance:** These cards are engineered to resist shocks and vibrations commonly encountered in industrial settings, ensuring data integrity even in physically demanding environments.

3. **Durability:** Industrial CF cards are constructed with durable materials to withstand rough handling and challenging conditions, making them more robust compared to standard consumer-grade cards.

4. **Extended Lifecycle:** Industrial CF cards often have a longer lifecycle and are built with higher endurance to withstand frequent read/write cycles, making them suitable for continuous use in industrial applications.

5. **Error Correction:** Enhanced error correction mechanisms are implemented in industrial CF cards to ensure reliable data storage and prevent data corruption, especially in situations where the environment may introduce interference.

6. **Power Failure Protection:** Some industrial CF cards include power failure protection mechanisms to safeguard data during unexpected power outages, ensuring data integrity in critical applications.

7. **ECC (Error-Correcting Code):** Industrial CF cards commonly utilize advanced ECC algorithms to detect and correct errors, enhancing the overall reliability of data storage.

8. **Wide Operating Voltage Range:** To accommodate fluctuations in power supply, industrial CF cards often support a wide operating voltage range, ensuring stability even in situations where power levels may vary.

9. **Data Security:** Enhanced security features, such as write protection switches and secure erase functions, are often incorporated into industrial CF cards to prevent unauthorized access and protect sensitive data.

10. **Compliance with Industry Standards:** Industrial CF cards may comply with specific industry standards (e.g., MIL-STD-810G for military applications) to meet the requirements of various rugged environments.

These features collectively make industrial CF cards well-suited for applications where reliability, durability, and data integrity are critical, such as in aerospace, defense, industrial automation, and other harsh environments.

Source: https://www.quora.com/Do-industrial-CF-cards- … mer-grade-cards

I suppose it shouldn't hurt to attach a higher capacity electrolyte capacitor to the CF card adapter, to countermeasure short power sourges? Say, 470 µF?

On a related note, here's what Transcend's official FAQ says about the difference between their industrial and consumer CF cards.

Transcend FAQ wrote:

There are three main differences: […]
Show full quote

There are three main differences:

1. Consumer CF cards can only be used as a removable disk, whereas Industrial CF cards are used as a fixed disk.
2. Temperature conditions:
   Industrial CF cards can be used between -40°C to 85°C.
   Consumer CF cards can be used between -25°C to 85°C.
3. Flash types:
   Industrial CF cards use SLC (single level cell).
   Consumer CF cards use MLC (multi-level cell).

Therefore, industrial CF cards provide better stability and endurance in general.

My biggest takeaway is that Transcend's industrial CF cards are always flagged as a "fixed disk" while their (currently available) consumer cards are flagged as "removable storage". There's also the SLC vs. MLC thing I guess.