aquishix wrote:

Ok, but how many *free* slots are you going to have in each machine? 😉

Good point! The Tandy is only using one slot at the moment, for a Tandy VGA card. I'm still fighting with getting the floppy drive controller disabled on this computer in order to add an aftermarket FDC and might just go SCSI (and unfortunately the cost associated with going with a SCSI floppy or floptical solution). 🙁 The Packard Bell is only using one slot too, for a network card. Another slot currently has an Aztech/Reveal SC300 or SC400 sound card which I had high hopes for but unfortunately, it's SBPro emulation is apparently mono. D'oh. The 486 currently has a GUS w/ maxed-out RAM and a Matrox G400 video card. It'll be getting a NIC and (hopefully) a Voodoo1 or Voodoo2 at some point, so should still have a free PCI and/or a couple ISA slots. The Pentium is completely wide-open now though will likely go with Voodoo graphics and will need a NIC. So mostly open. 😀

aquishix wrote:

Those 3 ISA slots in that 486 are going to be hotly contested if your experience is anything like mine. Only you can tell me what we have to work with, here. Or is it variable?

I would say nothing is set in stone with these builds. Far from it. I've bought a couple bits and pieces but am more or less hitting the brakes until I can lay things down on paper first. I would even drop a NIC if it meant getting a more ideal sound and graphics setup, for example.

aquishix wrote:

Anyway, here is the sound-relevant part of my DOS gaming rack:

This gives me somewhere to start. I am ordering one of keropi's cards this weekend to evaluate moving from system to system. That will get me my MT-32 support. Beyond that, I'm thinking of something along the lines of a Sound Blaster with true OPL3 or OPL4 support. And because I have the Gravis, likely it being used as well. You're right. That 486 could get busy if I use the GUS, an SB, and the MPU-401 card, which are all ISA. Though would I run into any issues going the PCI route for the SB? (All of these systems are DOS-focused. Windows is secondary, even on the Pentium.) I cannot see affording another GUS, at least for a long while, so the other builds would be at less crowded by one slot. (If keropi's card works well (and I see no reason why it won't) then I'd likely eventually put one in each of these builds.)

aquishix wrote:

So basically, if you're looking for the absolute best, just mimic what I've done to whatever extent you can afford the time, patience, and money. It's not cheap in any of those 3 categories, but the dividends are amazing if you're seeking that DOS-era aural nirvana.

I agree re:cost. These are definitely long-term projects, with the only real time I foresee pulling the trigger a bit sooner being when certain components start becoming so scarce that their costs begin rising towards prohibitive levels.

Thanks again for these suggestions. I appreciate it!

dionb wrote:

What, no covox? :+

Oddly, I never really heard much about covox, even when they were new. I really lived under a rock back then, I think!

dionb wrote:

My setup is somewhat less impressive, but perhaps an example of what is possible on a more limited budget: […]
Show full quote

My setup is somewhat less impressive, but perhaps an example of what is possible on a more limited budget:

Pentium
GUS Classic
Aztech SG NX Pro (SBPro 2.0, real OPL3 + Covox & DSS support)
SoftMPU via the NX Pro
- attempting to add an SB16/32 to this for CQM and SB16, but getting very frustrated with PnP issues and incompatibility between Creative utils and DOS 7.1 (which I need for my 8GB SSD)

486
AudioExcel AV310 (CMI-8330 with SBPro and SB16 support)
MusicQuest MPU-401 (original)

These builds bring up a good point, going the non-SoundBlaster (but SB-compatible) route for the secondary cards. I've been looking at the AudioTrix Pro cards on fleabay but the only one currently for sale is a ridiculous $500 but looking at past sales, three went for well under $100 within the past couple months.

dionb wrote:

Currently no fully working pre-486 systems operating fully, but I have an Olivetti M24 (pre-XT almost AT specced 8086-8 machine) I want to use for really old stuff once I find a (non-standard) keyboard for it. It has 16b slots, but not AT/ISA standard, so expansion options are limited to 8b ISA. I intend to use the MusicQuest there, and see if any of my other cards will work for AdLib and SB 2.0 compatibility in an 8b slot.

This sounds similar to the troubles I'm experiencing with my Tandy 1000 TL/2. It's a 286, but "barely." It is XT in many ways and only vaguely AT. 8-bit slots and the Tandy keyboard seems to be unique in some way because my other keyboards refuse to work on it, and vice-versa. I currently have a SB1.0 in it that I remember saving money for for months when I was a kid. 😀

dionb wrote:

But tbh, the more you add, the less impressive the improvement. "Just" an SBPro compatible card with OPL3 and no MIDI bug connected to an MT-32 using SoftMPU is a great early 1990s setup and an SBPro or 16 card with GM MIDI either via built-in wavetable or an external module is fine for late 1990s (with a GUS as icing on the cake for the few things that support it well). Only the GUS and MT-32 are expensive in these setups, and both are optional - most MT-32 stuff will run fine with GM, even if the instruments can be a bit off. A single SBPro-compatible card with wavetable support will give you about 75% of the experience for very little expense.

At least I now own the expensive parts of this equation. 😀 Honestly, for the digital audio portion, if I can get stereo, I'm happy. And if it has OPL3 or OPL4, fantastic. And a compatible gameport/MIDI port, even better (icing on the cake would be HardMPU) but failing that, keropi's cards fill that gap. Ah, the dream...

Thallanor wrote:

dionb wrote:

What, no covox? :+

Oddly, I never really heard much about covox, even when they were new. I really lived under a rock back then, I think!

Tbh, it's nothing really special - it was just that aquishix had pretty much everything else covered (multiplie times...) that I was a bit amused. I'm not aware of any really interesting games running Covox or DSS but not AdLib or similar, so it's really just a curiosity.

These builds bring up a good point, going the non-SoundBlaster (but SB-compatible) route for the secondary cards. I've been looking at the AudioTrix Pro cards on fleabay but the only one currently for sale is a ridiculous $500 but looking at past sales, three went for well under $100 within the past couple months.

That's a nice card, but there's much more out there with similar features. I was looking at Aztech stuff (I find them some of the best clones, far less bugs than the 'real' Creative cards, and they all have real OPL3 too) and spotted a Waverider32+ in Gemany for EUR 35, and earlier today spotted another Waverider in the US for USD 15 (although that one's gone now as far as I can see). No OPL4, but solid OPL3 and decent wavetable at very affordable prices.

Also note that Creative's SB16/32/64 are *NOT* SBPro 2.0 compatible, so if you play games that don't specifically support SB16, you actually fall back to Soundblaster 2.0, not Pro. They can also be pretty noisy and are full of bugs (MIDI hanging notes, various clicks & bumps) plus CQM instead of OPL3 in many cases - although I don't share the common hate of it. It certainly sounds different. What is 'better' is both subjective and dependent on what the game was composed for. All in all, I'm no big Creative fan when it comes to Soundblaster sound 😉

This sounds similar to the troubles I'm experiencing with my Tandy 1000 TL/2. It's a 286, but "barely." It is XT in many ways and only vaguely AT. 8-bit slots and the Tandy keyboard seems to be unique in some way because my other keyboards refuse to work on it, and vice-versa. I currently have a SB1.0 in it that I remember saving money for for months when I was a kid. 😀

Back in those days I was messing around with Sinclair ZX81 and Spectrum. First PC was my mum's IBM PS/2 model 70 in late 1987. This Olivetti is actually famously PC-compatible - at least as far as software goes. Hardware is... different, with the keyboard being a totally different connector (DE9) and protocol to either XT, AT or anything else.

At least I now own the expensive parts of this equation. 😀 Honestly, for the digital audio portion, if I can get stereo, I'm happy.

Then be sure to have something that's not only an SB16.

And if it has OPL3 or OPL4, fantastic. And a compatible gameport/MIDI port, even better (icing on the cake would be HardMPU) but failing that, keropi's cards fill that gap. Ah, the dream...

Sounds like you want a Yamaha-based card. If your motherboard has a PC/PCI connector (aka SB-Link) you could use one of the pretty common - and good - YMF744 DS-XG based cards. If not (as is most likely), an ISA card would be better (as without the SB-Link you don't get DOS DMA support on PCI), i.e. one with the Yamaha YMF719.

dionb wrote:

What, no covox? :+

Dammit. It had been a while since I'd heard covox mentioned, and I had forgotten to look into it. Now that I just did, I probably will have to get one of these. But it won't go in my rack, I don't think...

(I dunno. Maybe. Damn you!)

dionb wrote:

My setup is somewhat less impressive, but perhaps an example of what is possible on a more limited budget: […]
Show full quote

My setup is somewhat less impressive, but perhaps an example of what is possible on a more limited budget:

Pentium
GUS Classic
Aztech SG NX Pro (SBPro 2.0, real OPL3 + Covox & DSS support)
SoftMPU via the NX Pro
- attempting to add an SB16/32 to this for CQM and SB16, but getting very frustrated with PnP issues and incompatibility between Creative utils and DOS 7.1 (which I need for my 8GB SSD)

Actually, you don't need DOS 7.1 to fully utilize an 8GiB SSD; I know, because I'm doing that in one of my boxes that runs DOS 6.22. All you have to do is create 1 primary partition, 1 extended partition, and 3 logical partitions within that extended partition. You'll exhaust all 8GiB and have 4 drive letters in total. Having C, D, E, and F is not that big of a deal in my opinion. The only compelling reason to use DOS 7 for vintage gaming is to get the long filename support. But given all the driver and program compatibility issues with DOS 7, I've opted to stick with DOS 6.22. I even use DOS 6.22 on my Turbo XT and it presents no problems. =)

dionb wrote:

The MIDI stuff connects to: MT-32 (old PCB) MT-100 A Roland GM/GS piano, basically eq to an SC-55 for playback. […]
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The MIDI stuff connects to:
MT-32 (old PCB)
MT-100
A Roland GM/GS piano, basically eq to an SC-55 for playback.

Why do you have a gen 1 MT-32 AND an MT-100 hooked up? Are you trying to get the SysEx text messages on the LCD panel of the gen 1 MT-32 but the lack of buffer overflow problems from the MT-100? That's the only reason I can imagine that you would rig it up that way.

dionb wrote:

But tbh, the more you add, the less impressive the improvement. "Just" an SBPro compatible card with OPL3 and no MIDI bug connected to an MT-32 using SoftMPU is a great early 1990s setup

Indeed...but SoftMPU is a hack and it steals CPU cycles. The whole point of intelligent mode in the MPU-401 spec was to avoid wasting CPU cycles on MIDI processing. Using SoftMPU defeats that purpose and introduces possible inconsistent performance in a game. Granted, I doubt it's a huge impact, but it's there. That's the whole reason why I got a HardMPU in the first place -- to keep that stuff offloaded as it should be, but retain the SysEx delay feature if needed.

dionb wrote:

and an SBPro or 16 card with GM MIDI either via built-in wavetable or an external module is fine for late 1990s (with a GUS as icing on the cake for the few things that support it well).

Again, agreed...sort of. I think wavetables are gimmicky. The sound of a true SC-55 or SC-88 blows them away in most games because that's what most(?) games were designed against. General MIDI is and was a failed concept.

I was elated to discover that Warcraft II's glorious CD soundtrack(which I've loved for 22 years now) was in fact rendered on an SC-88 and converted to PCM audio to stamp on the CDs for release with the game. I played and beat Warcraft II recently with my actual SC-88 instead, and it sounds the same as the CD-audio -- with the extra happy feeling that it's being generated real-time instead of playing from a pre-rendered disc. Also makes the game a little snappier because it doesn't have to access the CD-ROM drive. To boot, the CD-ROM drivers don't have to be loaded. 😉

dionb wrote:

Only the GUS and MT-32 are expensive in these setups, and both are optional - most MT-32 stuff will run fine with GM, even if the instruments can be a bit off.

I will admit that the GUS is optional and is reserved for the high end of DOS audiophilia, but the MT-32 is really not optional. In almost every instance, if a game supported the MT-32, it sounded AMAZINGLY better on the MT-32 than anything else. Using a General MIDI compliant synth on a game that targets the MT-32 is just doing it wrong. It sounds like garbage, always. And I don't think I'm being overly picky, here. I'm pretty sure that most people that own MT-32s or have just heard their output on youtube would agree about this, especially if they've witnessed the travesty of an MT-32-enabled game playing through a General MIDI device.

A single SBPro-compatible card with wavetable support will give you about 75% of the experience for very little expense.

Yeah, and 75% of my body might not include my head -- that doesn't mean I want to be decapitated. Settling for less than the best in this day and age is just not justified. An MT-32 can be acquired for less than the cost of a typical motherboard or LCD monitor on a decent modern gaming rig. It's literally selling at about 18% of the cost that it did when new in the late 80s. I'm frankly surprised that they don't command even more money than they currently do on eBay. I would've paid double or even triple what I did pay to get my hands on a Gen 2 MT-32.

aquishix wrote:

I will admit that the GUS is optional and is reserved for the high end of DOS audiophilia, but the MT-32 is really not optional. In almost every instance, if a game supported the MT-32, it sounded AMAZINGLY better on the MT-32 than anything else. Using a General MIDI compliant synth on a game that targets the MT-32 is just doing it wrong. It sounds like garbage, always. And I don't think I'm being overly picky, here. I'm pretty sure that most people that own MT-32s or have just heard their output on youtube would agree about this, especially if they've witnessed the travesty of an MT-32-enabled game playing through a General MIDI device.

The biggest issue isn't necessarily with the sound quality of MT-32 emulation. In titles that use the default instruments, it can be passable (and usually an upgrade over FM). For titles that do use custom instruments, though, it will simply be wrong.

However, you don't necessarily need the hardware. Munt does a very good job of approximating both the MT-32 and CM-32L.

dionb wrote:

Tbh, it's nothing really special - it was just that aquishix had pretty much everything else covered (multiplie times...) that I was a bit amused. I'm not aware of any really interesting games running Covox or DSS but not AdLib or similar, so it's really just a curiosity.

I remember it back in the day, just never really got into them. Perhaps some day. I'm one of those "it'd be nice to someday have one of everything" kind of guys. 😀

dionb wrote:

That's a nice card, but there's much more out there with similar features. I was looking at Aztech stuff (I find them some of the best clones, far less bugs than the 'real' Creative cards, and they all have real OPL3 too) and spotted a Waverider32+ in Gemany for EUR 35, and earlier today spotted another Waverider in the US for USD 15 (although that one's gone now as far as I can see). No OPL4, but solid OPL3 and decent wavetable at very affordable prices.

I got really excited when I "rediscovered" my Aztech card that I've owned since the mid-90s. That was until I read about the mono-only SBPro emulation. Of course, there are other versions that likely build upon that.

dionb wrote:

Also note that Creative's SB16/32/64 are *NOT* SBPro 2.0 compatible, so if you play games that don't specifically support SB16, you actually fall back to Soundblaster 2.0, not Pro. They can also be pretty noisy and are full of bugs (MIDI hanging notes, various clicks & bumps) plus CQM instead of OPL3 in many cases - although I don't share the common hate of it. It certainly sounds different. What is 'better' is both subjective and dependent on what the game was composed for. All in all, I'm no big Creative fan when it comes to Soundblaster sound 😉

I wonder then, if I have keropi's MPU-401, if an actual honest-to-goodness Soundblaster Pro would work? Assuming no other cards, of course. The difficult part is getting an idea of what is out there that ticks all the boxes for those things mentioned: SBPro compatibility, OPL3 or OPL4, etc. I might just have to get digging.

dionb wrote:

Back in those days I was messing around with Sinclair ZX81 and Spectrum. First PC was my mum's IBM PS/2 model 70 in late 1987. T […]
Show full quote

Back in those days I was messing around with Sinclair ZX81 and Spectrum. First PC was my mum's IBM PS/2 model 70 in late 1987. This Olivetti is actually famously PC-compatible - at least as far as software goes. Hardware is... different, with the keyboard being a totally different connector (DE9) and protocol to either XT, AT or anything else.
I found most Tandys were incredibly PC-compatible so long as you stuck to stock. It's once you start experimenting with things that you start finding how proprietary (or semi-proprietary, at least) a lot of the hardware is, making upgrading difficult if not impossible. But I'm a sucker, so I keep at it.

dionb wrote:

Then be sure to have something that's not only an SB16.

That's my current problem. Apart from the Aztech and my original Soundblaster, the only other card that I have on-hand is an SB16. D'oh.

dionb wrote:

Sounds like you want a Yamaha-based card. If your motherboard has a PC/PCI connector (aka SB-Link) you could use one of the pretty common - and good - YMF744 DS-XG based cards. If not (as is most likely), an ISA card would be better (as without the SB-Link you don't get DOS DMA support on PCI), i.e. one with the Yamaha YMF719.

True. I actually owned a couple Yamaha-based cards back in the day. I believe both motherboards I have are sans-SB-Link, but the ISA options might be worth looking into. Thanks for the suggestion. 😀

aquishix wrote:

Actually, you don't need DOS 7.1 to fully utilize an 8GiB SSD; I know, because I'm doing that in one of my boxes that runs DOS 6.22. All you have to do is create 1 primary partition, 1 extended partition, and 3 logical partitions within that extended partition. You'll exhaust all 8GiB and have 4 drive letters in total. Having C, D, E, and F is not that big of a deal in my opinion. The only compelling reason to use DOS 7 for vintage gaming is to get the long filename support. But given all the driver and program compatibility issues with DOS 7, I've opted to stick with DOS 6.22. I even use DOS 6.22 on my Turbo XT and it presents no problems. =)

I'm actually returning to MS-DOS 6.22 once I can finally get a damn SSD to work in my 486 box. But that's another story...

aquishix wrote:

[...]

Now that I just did, I probably will have to get one of these. But it won't go in my rack, I don't think...

(I dunno. Maybe. Damn you!)

😜

Actually, you don't need DOS 7.1 to fully utilize an 8GiB SSD; I know, because I'm doing that in one of my boxes that runs DOS 6.22. All you have to do is create 1 primary partition, 1 extended partition, and 3 logical partitions within that extended partition. You'll exhaust all 8GiB and have 4 drive letters in total. Having C, D, E, and F is not that big of a deal in my opinion. The only compelling reason to use DOS 7 for vintage gaming is to get the long filename support. But given all the driver and program compatibility issues with DOS 7, I've opted to stick with DOS 6.22. I even use DOS 6.22 on my Turbo XT and it presents no problems. =)

Theoretically that should work, but with DOS 6.22 I keep getting trouble with the MBR - I can partition and use the disk, but not boot from it. But that's a different issue.

[...]

Why do you have a gen 1 MT-32 AND an MT-100 hooked up? Are you trying to get the SysEx text messages on the LCD panel of the gen 1 MT-32 but the lack of buffer overflow problems from the MT-100? That's the only reason I can imagine that you would rig it up that way.

Mainly because I found the MT-100 sort of accidentally for a very low price, and couldn't let it pass by. Long-term I will probably be ditching one of the two - most likely the MT-100 as those SysEx messages add to the enjoymnet.

[...]

Indeed...but SoftMPU is a hack and it steals CPU cycles. The whole point of intelligent mode in the MPU-401 spec was to avoid wasting CPU cycles on MIDI processing. Using SoftMPU defeats that purpose and introduces possible inconsistent performance in a game. Granted, I doubt it's a huge impact, but it's there. That's the whole reason why I got a HardMPU in the first place -- to keep that stuff offloaded as it should be, but retain the SysEx delay feature if needed.

SoftMPU is a CPU-stealing hack indeed - but that's only an issue if you are short of them. With a Pentium-class CPU (and a preference for pre-1995 games) CPU cycles are not an issue, in fact I usually expend more energy on artificially lowering performance than anything else - particularly as those titles that actually use intelligent mode are some of the oldest. SoftMPU stealing a few more actually helps there.
With an older machine it's a different story of course. Anything older than a 386 won't even run SoftMPU, but the performance hit on a 386 or early 486 is significant enough I fully agree you want hardware intelligent mode.

[...]

I will admit that the GUS is optional and is reserved for the high end of DOS audiophilia, but the MT-32 is really not optional. In almost every instance, if a game supported the MT-32, it sounded AMAZINGLY better on the MT-32 than anything else. Using a General MIDI compliant synth on a game that targets the MT-32 is just doing it wrong. It sounds like garbage, always. And I don't think I'm being overly picky, here. I'm pretty sure that most people that own MT-32s or have just heard their output on youtube would agree about this, especially if they've witnessed the travesty of an MT-32-enabled game playing through a General MIDI device.

Hey, I'm one of them (even have two MT-32 class modules), and I don't dispute that music composed for MT-32 sounds better on an MT-32 (or other Roland module with same board) than on everything else. I'm just talking about budget and priorities. Unless you're very lucky (which usually involves a lot of time and effort), an MT-32 (or an Ultrasound for that matter) will set you back well over USD/EUR 100, in fact if you want it *NOW* and are dependent on asking prices on a popular auction site, you'll end up paying a multiple of that. If money truly is not an issue, obviously get the MT-32, get the GUS, get a nice SC-55/88 etc. All I'm saying is that if you do have to make choices, the MT-32 is still pretty niche and you can get adequate functionality in those games that support it using other, cheaper options (either AdLib/SB, or GM). Once you go far enough down the rabbit hole to get the MT-32 itself, it will sound much, much better. But in terms of priorities, I'd get a Roland GS device sooner than the MT-32. It's (a bit) cheaper, there's more stuff out there for GM (usually composed for one of the Roland modules, so sounds 'right' too), and that stuff doesn't require intelligent mode, so any card with non-buggy UART MIDI is good enough. And it will play - if not perfectly - stuff for the MT-32 too, better than an MT-32 plays later GM stuff.

Yeah, and 75% of my body might not include my head -- that doesn't mean I want to be decapitated. Settling for less than the best in this day and age is just not justified. An MT-32 can be acquired for less than the cost of a typical motherboard or LCD monitor on a decent modern gaming rig. It's literally selling at about 18% of the cost that it did when new in the late 80s. I'm frankly surprised that they don't command even more money than they currently do on eBay. I would've paid double or even triple what I did pay to get my hands on a Gen 2 MT-32.

A valid point if you both have the money and can dedicate it to this hobby. But not everybody has that luxury. In my case I have the money, but rather a lot of other obligations in life - so I've set myself the challenge of keeping my vintage stuff as close to budget-neutral as possible. That's actually working out (buy large untested loads, test, keep what you need, sell what you don't) , but takes time so forces prioritisation and compromise. Also, I'm a firm believer in appreciating stuff more *because* you had to improvise before you had it, then make an effort to get it and finally enjoy it fully once you had it. The times I just shelled out cash and had immediate gratification, I quickly had an 'is that all then?'-feeling. Now, that's the way I roll and I fully appreciate others may approach things differently - but I'm sure a lot of people here need to make choices rather than just getting the ideal setup right away, and all I was suggesting was that in that case the MT-32 might not come top of the list. I would however recommend working down the list at whatever speed is feasible and get one as soon as possible, because it does sound great once you have it 😀

dionb wrote:

Mainly because I found the MT-100 sort of accidentally for a very low price, and couldn't let it pass by. Long-term I will probably be ditching one of the two - most likely the MT-100 as those SysEx messages add to the enjoymnet.

Insert Buckazoid. 😁