VOGONS


First post, by Vipersan

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So ..I'm hoping someone perhaps has an old NTSC Apple ii scrap logic board lying around ..
bit of a longshot but worth an ask ?
Basically ..I have an Apple ][ Europlus fully working with a homebrew keyboard ..
which I would also like to replace but I have more chance of becoming king of England I guess.
The Europlus only produces monochrome vga out via RCA natively..but Woz designed the US version to use colour arifacting Chroma ...so in theory the Europlus version could theoretically be retrofitted to give colour if I reversed the Euromods.
This I have done already ...but in order to produce colour I would need a multistandard monitor that accepts ntsc..
Which luckilly I do have.
BUT in order to fully revert to NTSC I need to change the clock frequency ..
A simple mod requiring the Crystal be changed ..and some jumpers fitted elsewhere on the logic board.
Specifically a 14.31818 MHZ series resonant crystal ..
Ebay isn't helping here and I do know that a crystal borrowed from an NTSC Apple ][e will work just fine..
I know cos I borrowed the one from my Apple IIe ..
See attached photo..
Id like to have both my II europlus and my IIe working so need another crystal ..
Can anyone help me ?

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Reply 1 of 5, by stamasd

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https://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Fre … 6zu9f?P=1z0wo9y

Hundreds of options there. This frequency is quite common in crystals.

I/O, I/O,
It's off to disk I go,
With a bit and a byte
And a read and a write,
I/O, I/O

Reply 2 of 5, by Vipersan

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Mouser did supply a suitable crystal once ..but sadly is no longer available ..

"For an Apple II to generate correct color burst, the only part that I have found that consistently works is Vishay/Dale part number XT9UNLANA14M31818. This is available from Mouser (part number 73-XT49U1431-S)."
quote from another site..

and this part is critical ..
for example the mod doesn't work correctly with a parallel resonant crystal of the same frequency..
Phase can be a problem.
harmonics is another issue ..
output amplitude another..
I have at least 3 different crystals of exactly the same frequency that simply dont produce colour or hang the system from different manufacturers.
I could just keep buying and trying..with crossed fingers ..but I was hoping to obtain one that definately works.

I suspect the axis 'Cut' of the quartz is very relevant ..
rgds
VS

Reply 3 of 5, by stamasd

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Oh I missed the part where the crystal needs to be series resonant. True if you use a parallel in a serial application the frequency will be off by about 10-20KHz, enough to drive the video signal out of spec. Usually that can be remedied by changing the capacitive load of the crystal. The parallel resonant frequency of a crystal is always higher by a few kHz than its series resonance.

Last edited by stamasd on 2018-10-14, 13:30. Edited 1 time in total.

I/O, I/O,
It's off to disk I go,
With a bit and a byte
And a read and a write,
I/O, I/O

Reply 4 of 5, by Vipersan

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stamasd wrote:

Oh I missed the part where the crystal needs to be serial. True if you use a parallel in a serial application the frequency will be off by about 10-20KHz, enough to drive the video signal out of spec. Usually that can be remedied by changing the capacitive load of the crystal.

Thanks for the extra info ..
I guess I could experment with the loading of the crystal..but would rather not if I can go the easier route..

Reply 5 of 5, by Vipersan

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A question from another site ..with an answer supplied..
..and the reason I want the correct xtal..
🤣
"What effect does selecting the wrong capacitance have? Does it skew the frequency, alter the shape of the waveform produced, or something entirely different? Is there an obvious correlation between too low and too high capacitance? Is it a case of slight errors, or orders of magnitude?"

"

May not oscillate.
May not oscillate reliably.
May have low to very low output.
May oscillate on wrong frequency (may be an undertone or an overtone).
For extra points may jump between modes (not usual)
May start up very slowly. And/or not always.
May produce less sinusoidal waveform than expected.
May shatter crystal (not usual in modern applications).

May work perfectly.

Factor of 2 in capacitance usually OK, but not always.
Note that some ceramic cap compositions are far worse in tempco, initial accuracy and general stability than others.

Depends on IC used, layout, how Murphy is feeling and phase of Moon.
Layout can be extremely important. Loop area enclosed by capacitor and crystal leads forma part of the oscillator circuit. Manufacturers often give quite specific advice on crystal and capacitor layout. Note it.

Crystal oscillators approach more closely to analog and to black magic than sane people want to get on a good day. In many cases they "just work" and the arcanery is well hidden. You MAY find that capacitance that is off by a factor or 2 or even 5x still works OK. Or, you may not. When they don't work as hoped they can be most obdurate obstinate obnoxious odious and generally overwhelmingly annoying.
"