VOGONS


First post, by vmr_

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Hi,

I recently started playing with a SS7 setup including the following:

Motherboard: AOpen AX59PRO rev 2.0 bios 2.36
RAM: 256MB
Video: Radeon 7000 64MB PCI
CPU(s): Rise MP6 333 / 240Mhz (95x2.5) Lynx core

The usual Dosbench tests seem to look ok, will only mention speedsys here:

speedsys 4.78: 317.15 (it beats K6-2-266 apparently)

The interesting part is when I test Quake 2 with default OpenGL - results below:

800x600 demo1 16.5 FPS demo2 16.3 FPS
1024X760 demo1 16.8 FPS demo2 16.7 FPS
1280x960 demo1 16.6 FPS demo2 16.6 FPS
1600x1200 demo1 15.3 FPS demo2 15.1 FPS

Looks like the CPU is the bottleneck here - or is it anything else?

Same setup rocks with K6-2+ and K6-III+ - will add numbers for camparison later.

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Last edited by vmr_ on 2018-11-15, 21:30. Edited 1 time in total.

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL

Reply 1 of 26, by BinaryDemon

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I assume the K6-2/3 CPU’s weren’t running Quake2 patched with 3Dnow?

I have no experience with Rise MP6, when I looked at the specs the L1 cache seems small compared with its competitors cpus (Cyrix 6x86 has 16kb too, but that’s not saying much). I wonder if Quake2 is a specific usage were small L1 cache hurts.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 3 of 26, by vmr_

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BinaryDemon wrote:

I assume the K6-2/3 CPU’s weren’t running Quake2 patched with 3Dnow?

I have no experience with Rise MP6, when I looked at the specs the L1 cache seems small compared with its competitors cpus (Cyrix 6x86 has 16kb too, but that’s not saying much). I wonder if Quake2 is a specific usage were small L1 cache hurts.

No patch installed for 3DNow for K6-2/III+, but each run at much higher frequency - 475MHz, respectively 550MHz 😀

Possibly the cache might be causing this - will attempt to rerun with a small overclocking for MP6 to see if the FPS increases under Quake2.

Had a look at 6x86 Ultimate Benchmark done by feipoa, and Rise MP6 200Mhz is around 13-14 FPS in Quake2 - so looks consistent.

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL

Reply 4 of 26, by mrau

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download/file.php?id=11659
rise mp6 200, 66x3 -> 16.3fps
and this is with a g200 - so either drivers are slowing this down or there is a problem with overall throughput
can You choose older drivers and retest?

Reply 5 of 26, by vmr_

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I used the latest driver released for Radeon 7000 PCI card - will check for older versions and test later in the week.

Will also test with Voodoo 5 5500 AGP for fun.

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL

Reply 6 of 26, by The Serpent Rider

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Pentium MMX 233 is more than 2x faster with PCI S3 Savage 4.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 7 of 26, by vmr_

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Did a bit more testing with MP6 Lynx CPU - more of the same results.

Overclocked to 250 (100FSBx2.5)
- with Radeon 7000 64Mb PCI

800x600 17.5FPS in demo1 in Quake2

- with Voodoo 5 5500 AGP using default OpenGL

800x600 demo1 25 FPS
1024X760 demo1 23.5 FPS
1280x960 demo1 23.6 FPS
1600x1200 demo1 9.5 FPS

- with Voodoo 5 5500 AGP using 3dfx OpenGL

800x600 demo1 38.1 FPS
1024X760 demo1 38.2 FPS
1280x960 demo1 38 FPS
1600x1200 demo1 38.1 FPS

Reverted back to 240Mhz (95FSBx2.5),

- with Voodoo 5 5500 AGP using 3dfx OpenGL

800x600 demo1 36.7 FPS demo2 35 FPS
1024X760 demo1 36.8 FPS demo2 35 FPS
1280x960 demo1 36.6 FPS demo2 34.9 FPS
1600x1200 demo1 36.8 FPS demo2 35 FPS

Next will attempt a few tests with Intel P5 166MMX and a K6-2 underclocked close to 240Mhz.

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL

Reply 9 of 26, by lost77

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You are seriously CPU limited here. The Voodoo 5 does better because it has hardware transform & lighting to offload the CPU (although Quake II only uses the transform part).

The small cache hurts it and it might also have a weak FPU. The PR rating is based on its ALU performance.

With better drivers you might end up close to 20 FPS on the Radeon 7000, although ATI drivers seem to require a lot of CPU power.

Try with a Voodoo 2, that should be a better fit.

Reply 11 of 26, by Koltoroc

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he can't because they don't. IIRC one of the announced but never made successors to the voodoo 5 were supposed to get T&L in hardware. The Voodoo 5 was the last high end(ish) GPU without T&L.

Reply 12 of 26, by vmr_

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Thanks for all feedback, for now decided to park the MP6 one, and start a new challenge. Some would say IDT WinChip2 was one of the worst - so I want to put it to the test. 😈

Same setup as above, but with IDT WinChip2 W2B-3DFK200BTA 200Mhz (66x3).
NOTE: I had to straighten a few pins first... and I expected that part to be the main difference compared with MP6 😀

Had no issues to get it running on AOpen AX59Pro, booted, run all dosbench tests

speedsys 4.78: 153.64 (less than half compared with MP6 PR333 (240Mhz)

However, Quake2 crashes at start...

any ideas? I don't have the 3DNow patch installed, but don't think it would make any difference.

Any experience with IDT Winchip2B and Quake2?

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL

Reply 13 of 26, by feipoa

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I have a Winchip 2B but haven't gotten around to testing it. Does a 2A work fine for you?

Ultimate 486 Benchmark | Ultimate 686 Benchmark | Cyrix 5x86 Enhancements | 486 Overkill Graphics | Worlds Fastest 486

Reply 14 of 26, by vmr_

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Waiting for a bunch of Winchip 2A to arrive in the post, none around to test (for now) 🙁

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL

Reply 15 of 26, by vmr_

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One other thing: Winchip 2B have Vcore stated for 2.8V (some specs say 2.7-2.9), and so I did set it up - and it works as described above. I know all other IDT CPUs are 3V and higher.

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL

Reply 16 of 26, by lost77

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Well, while the Voodoo 5 does not have a DX7 compatible T&L engine it can simulate T&L using geometry assist and produce faster results than standard FPU calculations in some cases.

I think that might be whats happening on your machine. Or maybe there is just something seriously wrong with that Radeon card, never owned a 7000 myself.

EDIT: Are those 16-bit or 32-bit scores?

Reply 17 of 26, by The Serpent Rider

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Well, while the Voodoo 5 does not have a DX7 compatible T&L engine it can simulate T&L using geometry assist and produce faster results than standard FPU calculations in some cases.

You need at least Pentium 3 for that.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 18 of 26, by vmr_

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The Serpent Rider wrote:

Well, while the Voodoo 5 does not have a DX7 compatible T&L engine it can simulate T&L using geometry assist and produce faster results than standard FPU calculations in some cases.

You need at least Pentium 3 for that.

I saw a few of your older posts, any experience with IDT Winchip? Wondering if you managed to get Quake2 running...

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL

Reply 19 of 26, by vmr_

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I realised that last time I run Quake2 before ading IDT WinChip 2B CPU, I used Voodoo 5 card with 3dfx GL settings. So attemting to use the Radeon 7000 PCI card lead to Quake2 crashing. My bad 😀

Problem solved and WinChip 2B working, will add some results later.

Retro builds & sandbox
IBM XT 5160 | 286 | 386 | 486 | S4 SI5PI AIO + P60 SX828
S8 & Pentium Pro 200 | SS7 Asus P5A + AOpen AX59 & AMD K6III+ 550MHz
Slot A Asus K7M Athlon 1Ghz GDF | Slot 1 Pentium III 1GHz SL4KL