VOGONS


First post, by root42

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

I just played around with Wing Commander 2 on the 386 board. I noticed that my cheap Fujitsu keyboard has a matrix where when I use the cursor keys, the space bar is dead. Which makes playing WC2 very, very hard.

So what keyboards do you guys recommend for playing? Need to be PS/2 or DIN and should not be expensive. I mostly play adventure games, so I rarely need this feature... I also do not want a Joystick (yet), so yeah, I want a better keyboard.

YouTube and Bonus
80486DX@33 MHz, 16 MiB RAM, Tseng ET4000 1 MiB, SnarkBarker & GUSar Lite, PC MIDI Card+X2+SC55+MT32, OSSC

Reply 1 of 16, by Strahssis

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I have used a Compaq 5185 like for ages and I'm very happy with it!
From my experience it works great for gaming and it types very comfortably as well. 😀
The style of the keyboard is very nice, but it's silver and black color scheme doesn't fit in all retro setups. 😒

Mimi: AMD K6-2/266, S3 Trio64, Diamond Monster 3D II, Sound Blaster CT2800, 32MB RAM
Satellite 220CS: Pentium 133, SVGA DSTN, Sound Blaster Pro, 64MB RAM
Contura 420CX: 486DX4 75, VGA TFT, Roland Serial MIDI, 16MB RAM

Reply 2 of 16, by realnc

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I don't know if it's still available, but some years ago, I bought a PS/2 mechanical keyboard, a Cooler Master QuickFire XT. It has n-key rollover, meaning there's no limit to the amount of keys you can press at the same time (and it actually is true, not just some marketing half-truth.) IIRC, I paid ~60€ for it.

It also supports USB, but you need an adaptor for that. The native connection type is PS/2. The cable is detachable, and is USB on the keyboard's end, and PS/2 on the PC end. If you use the PS/2 to USB adapter, you will lose some of the functionality of the keyboard (you'll lose n-key rollover and the keyboard repeat speed keys.) The keyboard really is meant for PS/2, not USB.

Reply 3 of 16, by dionb

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Yep, n-key rollover is what you want. Its availability depends on the technology behind the keyboards and is quite distinct from typing quality - IBM's famous Model M equally famously doesn't offer it. Look for keyboards using capacitive technology, they almost always do. Boards with Cherry switches can but don't alway.

Reply 4 of 16, by root42

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Dang. So I will look out for the keyboards mentioned. Cherry G80 seem to be rather easy to be had. Question is if they are good enough.

YouTube and Bonus
80486DX@33 MHz, 16 MiB RAM, Tseng ET4000 1 MiB, SnarkBarker & GUSar Lite, PC MIDI Card+X2+SC55+MT32, OSSC

Reply 5 of 16, by gex85

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
root42 wrote:

Dang. So I will look out for the keyboards mentioned. Cherry G80 seem to be rather easy to be had. Question is if they are good enough.

When it comes to keyboards and how "good" they are, it's pretty much all about personal preferences. I have a Cherry G80-1800 and I love it. It comes with the excellent mechanical Cherry MX switches (MX Black by default) and offers superb build quality. I am sure that the narrow layout of the 1800 variant is not for everyone, but the G80-3000 is basically the same thing with a more standard layout.

However, I couldn't find any source stating that the G80 supports n-key rollover. But the Cherry MX Board 3.0, that comes with the same MX Black switches, does support n-key rollover for up to 14 keys, which should be sufficient. Obviously it does not look exactly "retro-like", so it might not be what you are looking for.

My retro computers

Reply 6 of 16, by NamelessPlayer

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

A suitably vintage (read: beige) board with NKRO (because it uses capacitive switching) would be a BTC 5339, should you happen to find any in local thrift stores; I found two.

Problem is, they have really mushy keys if you get the ones with springs instead of buckling sleeves. Can't stand it all that much. They also have fat reverse-L Enter keys, but at least Backspace isn't emasculated as a result - the Backslash (/) key is tucked in the corner beneath right Shift and beside right Ctrl for some reason.

Other than that, you might be harder-pressed to find full NKRO options if you're not picking a capacitive board specifically. I'm not sure which Cherry-made boards for PCs have the NKRO diodes, but I'd consider them more likely to include them than most if they're the only ones to ever make an Amiga keyboard with NKRO diodes, which Mitsumi and NMB never bothered with.

As an aside, playing Wing Commander on a keyboard sounds like an exercise in masochism. Do consider setting aside some space for a joystick in the future, maybe a Thrustmaster FCS for period-correctness. (NOT a CH Flightstick Pro or the budget Suncom F-15 stick models; you can't press buttons 1 and 2 on those simultaneously due to chorded button encoding for the hat switches.)

Reply 7 of 16, by dionb

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Those foam & foil boards don't have to be that mushy, it's mainly the foam going flat/inelastic after all this time. I read good results from refurbishing them with new foam. Still, that's a massive amount of fiddly work. I'd also be very interested to hear examples of Cherry-based boards with the diodes. I have a decidedly non-retro black Leopold that does - but bulky & beige (preferably with some heavy steel in there somewhere too) feels better 😉

Edit: picked up a BTC-5339 today as part of a massive haul. Not impressed, makes a Cherry MY (also got some Cherry G81-3000 boards) feel good by comparison - and I'm no MY fan. Did pick up one OEM-y board with what sounds & feels like MX Blue. If it is and it works, I'll check for NKRO. Although I have a bit of a testing backlog right now...

Reply 8 of 16, by dr_st

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

For most single-player gaming scenarios a full N-key rollover is not, strictly speaking, mandatory. A guaranteed 6-key rollover would suffice, and in practice, even 3-KRO keyboards (which can register as many as 5 keys in most cases, just not everywhere) would be OK.

You may still opt to hunt for an NKRO, because if a manufacturer advertises it, it's a guarantee. Otherwise, there is no way to know what a keyboard is actually capable of, short of trying it in various games. Plus, if you are ever dreaming of doing 2-player games on one keyboard, NKRO is the way to go.

https://cloakedthargoid.wordpress.com/ - Random content on hardware, software, games and toys

Reply 9 of 16, by root42

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Well, limited NKRO would be good. For games like Micro Machines unlimited would probably be better.

YouTube and Bonus
80486DX@33 MHz, 16 MiB RAM, Tseng ET4000 1 MiB, SnarkBarker & GUSar Lite, PC MIDI Card+X2+SC55+MT32, OSSC

Reply 10 of 16, by borgie83

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Try out the Microsoft Keyboard 500. Comes in beige or black, is PS2 and readily available on eBay as brand new in box. Cheap and works great. Been using them for years.

Reply 12 of 16, by root42

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
borgie83 wrote:

Try out the Microsoft Keyboard 500. Comes in beige or black, is PS2 and readily available on eBay as brand new in box. Cheap and works great. Been using them for years.

Just checked, sadly no German sellers... shipping kills this. 🙁

YouTube and Bonus
80486DX@33 MHz, 16 MiB RAM, Tseng ET4000 1 MiB, SnarkBarker & GUSar Lite, PC MIDI Card+X2+SC55+MT32, OSSC

Reply 13 of 16, by dr_st

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
dionb wrote:

Playing GTA2 on a Model M was a frustrating reminder of how 2-KRO is definitely not enough 🙁

I never owned a model M. It's funny how this keyboard which some consider 'legendary' turns out to be a complete crap if you want to play games. Kind of like Thinkpad laptop keyboards, actually.

The new Lenovo USB desktop keyboards actually seem better in this regard. Technically they are only 2KRO as well, because you can find 3-button combos that jam, but most of the common ones you would want to use for gaming do not (e.g., it accepts most modifiers with 2-3 additional keys).

https://cloakedthargoid.wordpress.com/ - Random content on hardware, software, games and toys

Reply 14 of 16, by dionb

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
dr_st wrote:
dionb wrote:

Playing GTA2 on a Model M was a frustrating reminder of how 2-KRO is definitely not enough 🙁

I never owned a model M. It's funny how this keyboard which some consider 'legendary' turns out to be a complete crap if you want to play games. Kind of like Thinkpad laptop keyboards, actually.

The Model M is absolutely legendary for what it was designed for: typing. The keys are better sculpted than almost anything else out there, the tactile (and very audible) feedback of the switches is spot on - and you can drive a tank over them and they still keep working. I'm not the world's greatest typist, but can type blind reasonably efficiently. With my Leopold keyboard with Cherry Brown switches - an excellent modern design, and my dailiy driver for about 5 years, so one I'm perfectly accustomed to - I need to be absolutely perfectly aligned with the keyboard or I miss keys and make mistakes. On a model M I can type at a 45 degree angle and still get it right - even on the rubber dome models (which I use at work as I would get lynched if I had a loud clicky buckling spring board).

So no, not great for gaming, but rightly legendary for what it was designed for.

The new Lenovo USB desktop keyboards actually seem better in this regard. Technically they are only 2KRO as well, because you can find 3-button combos that jam, but most of the common ones you would want to use for gaming do not (e.g., it accepts most modifiers with 2-3 additional keys).

I'm actually typing on one of these right now (the rubber dome Model M is attached to my work network PC, the internet PC has a Lenovo), but I'm not hugely impressed. Then again, I don't usually game at work, so can't comment on its merits there 😉

Reply 15 of 16, by jheronimus

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Not advocating Model M, but I was surprised to learn about the NKR issue from this thread. I've been playing a bunch of Quake 3 on it for the last year and I don't think I've felt any frustration. Could also be because I'm a shitty player and don't mash the keys hard enough 😀

MR BIOS catalog
Unicore catalog

Reply 16 of 16, by Error 0x7CF

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

It's not mechanical, but I love my old beige Dell Quietkeys. I have 3 now. One served my grandmother for about two decades, another I bought NOS off eBay for ~$30, and another I saved from recycling. It's obvious they're not tanks like the Model M but they provide a nice typing experience pretty cheap, since they're so common. I know a few people who have mistaken them for mechanical, though it probably wouldn't fool anyone who was using mechanical all the time. I haven't had any troubles with rollover but I can't find any info online for tests about it. No game I've tried to use them for posed any problems.

Old precedes antique.