PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby cyclone3d » 2018-12-06 @ 22:22

j^aws wrote:
cyclone3d wrote:True.. but we are talking about DOS/Win98... so PCI-E is a moot point. You won't have any drivers for any PCI-E video cards in Win9x.

I'm also not sure exactly why we would need an uber fast CPU for DOS/Win9x.. but that doesn't stop me from wishing I had a faster PICMG or PIAGP setup than I already have. Just for fun!

The PICMG CPU boards I posted links to both use the ITE8888 bridge chip so they should have full ISA compatibility.

Firstly, PICMG 1.3 boards with ISA slots exist. And some PCI-E GPUs do have Win98 drivers. However, in
such a setup, you'd use a fast PCI GPU for Win98 duties and the PCI-E GPU for WinXP duties. You can also supplement DOS duties with an ISA video card, too.


Link to said PICMG 1.3 backplane with ISA slot(s)? I would guess that the backplane would have to host the PCI to ISA bridge as well?
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby ruthan » 2018-12-06 @ 22:31

cyclone3d wrote:True.. but we are talking about DOS/Win98... so PCI-E is a moot point. You won't have any drivers for any PCI-E video cards in Win9x.
I'm also not sure exactly why we would need an uber fast CPU for DOS/Win9x.. but that doesn't stop me from wishing I had a faster PICMG or PIAGP setup than I already have. Just for fun!

I think that different people are interested in different things.. but dont see too much point to mess which this strange form factor for slow machine with ISA / PCI only when you can get normal ATX MB for it.

Me, Rayer and others want as fast as possible DOS machines. My X58 Six Core Xeon on 4 GHz is working fine, even with PCI Sound card everywhere from DOS to Win10/Linux/MacOS and even Z370 Core i7 8700K is working in DOS, except sound.. With properly coded games (good coder i aware that machines would get faster..) not have problems with fast cpu, some games need patching (pascal crt runtime errror 200 or add some nop,nop waits), for others working well slowdowners as Setmul and Slowdos.. sound compatibility is much bigger problem.
But look at my sound card compatibility sheet:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.d ... &mode=html
With X58 and Yamaha + Aureal V2 combo is was able to reach 95+ % of Dos compatiblity in suite of 165 dos games, where is most of big titles, games from late 80s and early 90s, even Ultima0 is still working. Of course you need invest time to find way in which setting is some game working, at first there is lots of rebooting (pretty fast on new machines.. and now you just look to my sheet for proven settings..), but its solvable.. once you found working combination, you need only note it, make simple start batch etc..

BTW not working PCI-E cards in Win9x or DOS is urban legend, up to Geforce 7 and Ati X850 drivers are there (maybe this latest Win98 are best for compatibility, but still working pretty well with most of the games and have zillions period right machines has its problems too), there are PCI Vooodoo 3/5 / Gerorce too, if dont want to use them. I personally using MBs with primary gpu slot selection, so i can select bios profile / videocard per OS.. only limiting factor is number of slots.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby j^aws » 2018-12-06 @ 22:33

cyclone3d wrote:
j^aws wrote:
cyclone3d wrote:True.. but we are talking about DOS/Win98... so PCI-E is a moot point. You won't have any drivers for any PCI-E video cards in Win9x.

I'm also not sure exactly why we would need an uber fast CPU for DOS/Win9x.. but that doesn't stop me from wishing I had a faster PICMG or PIAGP setup than I already have. Just for fun!

The PICMG CPU boards I posted links to both use the ITE8888 bridge chip so they should have full ISA compatibility.

Firstly, PICMG 1.3 boards with ISA slots exist. And some PCI-E GPUs do have Win98 drivers. However, in
such a setup, you'd use a fast PCI GPU for Win98 duties and the PCI-E GPU for WinXP duties. You can also supplement DOS duties with an ISA video card, too.


Link to said PICMG 1.3 backplane with ISA slot(s)? I would guess that the backplane would have to host the PCI to ISA bridge as well?

FAB100-400x400.jpg
FAB100-400x400.jpg (40.85 KiB) Viewed 67 times

Axiomtek FAB100. My interest in one is building a DAW, rather than an all encompassing PC.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby ruthan » 2018-12-06 @ 22:48

If i found right thing its not expensive as i tough..
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Axi ... m%2fjuWg==
130 Euro.. its fine, its ATX too, only case would be hassle.. or at least i dont now nothing about good cases for such stuff. I dont have problem with big cases, i actually like them, more room to operace and add some stuff inside pc, i would only prefer some tower than some classic rack case orientation..

I dont mind, if someone find something with and much more PCI-E long slots (only 1 or 2 ISA / and 2 PCI slots are enough for me), it would be even better.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby cyclone3d » 2018-12-06 @ 23:10

ruthan wrote:If i found right thing its not expensive as i tough..
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Axi ... m%2fjuWg==
130 Euro.. its fine, its ATX too, only case would be hassle.. or at least i dont now nothing about good cases for such stuff. I dont have problem with big cases, i actually like them, more room to operace and add some stuff inside pc, i would only prefer some tower than some classic rack case orientation..

I dont mind, if someone find something with and much more PCI-E long slots (only 1 or 2 ISA / and 2 PCI slots are enough for me), it would be even better.


Awesome. And it has the ITE8888 bridge. I will have to get one of those at some point as I already have a couple PICMG 1.3 LGA775 CPU boards that I got for like $40 total a while back. Also have an LGA1155 PCIMG 1.3 board. Forget how much I paid for it, but is was really cheap.

As for more PCI-E x16 slots.. not going to happen. The most you are going to get is 2x slots that run at x8 because the chipsets used don't have enough PCI-e lanes to handle more than that.

And as far as I can tell, that backplane is the only PICMG 1.3 backplane available that has ISA slots. Not coming up with any others when searching.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby j^aws » 2018-12-06 @ 23:55

cyclone3d wrote:And as far as I can tell, that backplane is the only PICMG 1.3 backplane available that has ISA slots. Not coming up with any others when searching.

pgal_160328_y0ujaw.jpg

Here's another PICMG 1.3 with ISA: Aaeon BP-214SH-P3E2I6
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby cyclone3d » 2018-12-07 @ 00:03

j^aws wrote:
cyclone3d wrote:And as far as I can tell, that backplane is the only PICMG 1.3 backplane available that has ISA slots. Not coming up with any others when searching.

pgal_160328_y0ujaw.jpg

Here's another PICMG 1.3 with ISA: Aaeon BP-214SH-P3E2I6


How are you finding these?

Any more you can dig up?
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby j^aws » 2018-12-07 @ 00:07

cyclone3d wrote:
j^aws wrote:
cyclone3d wrote:And as far as I can tell, that backplane is the only PICMG 1.3 backplane available that has ISA slots. Not coming up with any others when searching.

pgal_160328_y0ujaw.jpg

Here's another PICMG 1.3 with ISA: Aaeon BP-214SH-P3E2I6


How are you finding these?

Any more you can dig up?

I made some searches a while ago when I was looking at PIAGP boards, and remembered them. I think there was another board from Advantech, but can't quite remember.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby ruthan » 2018-12-07 @ 00:11

cyclone3d wrote: As for more PCI-E x16 slots.. not going to happen. The most you are going to get is 2x slots that run at x8 because the chipsets used don't have enough PCI-e lanes to handle more than that.

I dont thing that count of PCI-E x16 slots (long ones) is problem, all modern desktop CPU have still only 16 PCI-E lines, but there are lots of 3xPCI-E long and 3/4 PCI-E slots MBs. If you are using additional card, PCI-E slot is simply downgraded to 8x/4x etc. Except very last GPUs, performance difference between 8x and 16x is very, very small - so for example even Triple SLI still worked with them - in x8+2* 4x setup.
Even PCI-E 1x is fast enough for DOS / Win98 video cards.

Im not really sure how it counts for different PCI-E versions, if PCI-E gen1 videocard at 4x speed really eats 4x Gen3 lines, or less. Because 1xGeb3 (1 GB/s)=2xGen2=4xGen1 (250 MB/s) speed.

There is advantages of my Xeon and other ethusians and server intel CPUs there are 36/40/44x lines, i dunno if there are also socket v1366 / v2011v3 CPU boards for such systems, but i would make sense.. maybe why to have industry MB with lots of slots.. without proper industry CPU.

Update:
I looked on 2 CPU boards, which cyclone3D linked they look fine, is even mentioned that PS/2 port supports Y cable for keyboard and mouse at the same time, second have nice block diagram, where you can see how bridge are connected.. There are using classic intel chipsets, so - advantage is there is nothing extra to make them super expensive and incompatible where classic desktop MBs with same chipsets are fine. It look nice, we need only test if sound cards in DOS are really working.. and we have 2 chances for success: PCI ones and ISA ones.

I also wonder if they are using classic Intel Bios / UEFI or something special and too much modified, of course i doubt that there would be nice desktop stuff as.. faster memory speed, overclocking and Bios profiles.. but if it could have UEFI everything is possible. There seems to be also classic Realtek HD sound cards, but you will need some special header kit for it.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby LSS10999 » 2018-12-07 @ 00:57

It's the chipset that has to retain at least PC/PCI or DDMA in order to get DMA from IT8888 bridge (even when using the bridge card), so I don't think you'll be able to get ISA DMA with IT8888 from a PICMG 1.3 CPU board, since those boards are all going to be ICH6 or later which can only use LPC for DMA and only on a limited amount of I/O ranges.

This holds true for earlier PICMG revisions, too. On ICH6 or later PICMG 1.0 CPU boards, some manufacturers would explicitly state that the board does not support ISA DMA, if the CPU board is interchangeable with CPU boards using ICH5 or earlier on the same backplane model (and the backplane could provide ISA DMA either natively or through a bridge card).

On new chipsets, you still need LPC DMA, but I don't think there are any backplane/CPU board pair with LPC-ISA bridges.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby j^aws » 2018-12-07 @ 02:17

^^ Best bet for ISA DMA are PCIAGP backplanes, as they still retain IT8888 bridge chips with ICH5 or older southbridges available on compatible SBCs.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby cyclone3d » 2018-12-07 @ 02:48

j^aws wrote:^^ Best bet for ISA DMA are PCIAGP backplanes, as they still retain IT8888 bridge chips with ICH5 or older southbridges available on compatible SBCs.


In which case, this SBC, which supports up to Pentium D would be the fastest available as far as I know:
http://www.attro.com/download/datasheet/SAGP-8654EVG.pdf

However, if might work with C2D.. I have a desktop board based on the 865/ich5 combo that supports C2D.
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Re: PCie-to PCI, PCI to ISA, # of slots multipliers - bridges, risers, backplanes, research, especially for DOS, WIP.

Postby ruthan » 2018-12-07 @ 10:08

LSS10999 wrote:It's the chipset that has to retain at least PC/PCI or DDMA in order to get DMA from IT8888 bridge (even when using the bridge card), so I don't think you'll be able to get ISA DMA with IT8888 from a PICMG 1.3 CPU board, since those boards are all going to be ICH6 or later which can only use LPC for DMA and only on a limited amount of I/O ranges.

This holds true for earlier PICMG revisions, too. On ICH6 or later PICMG 1.0 CPU boards, some manufacturers would explicitly state that the board does not support ISA DMA, if the CPU board is interchangeable with CPU boards using ICH5 or earlier on the same backplane model (and the backplane could provide ISA DMA either natively or through a bridge card).

On new chipsets, you still need LPC DMA, but I don't think there are any backplane/CPU board pair with LPC-ISA bridges.


j^aws wrote:^^ Best bet for ISA DMA are PCIAGP backplanes, as they still retain IT8888 bridge chips with ICH5 or older southbridges available on compatible SBCs.


So make sense to use these for:
1) as alternative to very overprised and sold out Core 2 Duo + ISA MBs, which i already posted and are in first post.
2) If really need lots of slots, some musicians wants to use lots of cards, maybe some could need them for work too.
3) Rayer is still able to use at least PCI sound cards on P67 chipset and i will probably work on other P/H/Q/Z 6x/7x chipsets too... and you can have lots of slots with such machines with this concept.

But is nothing for me, if its only about chipset not "magic" bridge / back plane / Bios solution.. But i heard a lot wrong assumptions and urban legends, before.. i still would like to test even more modern ISA / PCI cards, you newer know for sure.. before we will sure that is dead end.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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