spiroyster wrote:

Back in the day, all that was needed was to buy an Amiga. They came with KS and workbench, the A520, DP3, Lemmings... blah blah... Just plug it all together, no need for upgrades and plug it in to the TV, then get disk juggling.

Yes, but nowadays you buy an overpriced hyped Amiga 500 and soon will find out that there's a million things wrong with it (disk drive doesn't work, it's slow, it's yellow, capacitors need replacement etc). Super Nintendo does the same thing, loads games instantly and will last for a long time to come.

brostenen wrote:

Scart is in its own nature RGB.

It was designed for RGB signal, but many SCART cables (e.g. for game consoles) are wired for composite video / audio.

I remember the day friends came over to play on my new EGA PC. The first game was Double Dragon.

"Why do they all have measles?"

SpectriaForce wrote:

Why don't you take a Super Nintendo (or Sega Genesis / Mega Drive)? Same kind of games as on the Amiga and much more reliable (Amiga fan boys are probably going to say that's no comparison but I have owned several Amiga's too and there's nothing desirable about them unless you like to spend tons of money on upgrades that you won't need for playing classic Amiga games).

You don't have to be a fan boi to know thats not a comparison. Aside from the obvious computer/console difference, Mario paint was no competition to Deluxe paint. 😵

SpectriaForce wrote:

spiroyster wrote:

Back in the day, all that was needed was to buy an Amiga. They came with KS and workbench, the A520, DP3, Lemmings... blah blah... Just plug it all together, no need for upgrades and plug it in to the TV, then get disk juggling.

Yes, but nowadays you buy an overpriced hyped Amiga 500 and soon will find out that there's a million things wrong with it (disk drive doesn't work, it's slow, it's yellow, capacitors need replacement etc). Super Nintendo does the same thing, loads games instantly and will last for a long time to come.

Well yes, but... "back in the day"... etc.

Personally I would use an emulator in both cases... an emulator will achieve what no SNES or Amiga hardware can.

spiroyster wrote:

You don't have to be a fan boi to know thats not a comparison. Aside from the obvious computer/console difference, Mario paint was no competition to Deluxe paint. 😵

Deluxe paint? 🤣 Who uses that in 2019?

Looking at the games, the Super Nintendo has great 16-bit 2D (side scroller) games, some titles available for the Amiga 500 were also available for the Super Nintendo (or Sega Genesis).

SpectriaForce wrote:

Deluxe paint? 🤣 Who uses that in 2019?

Probably the same sadistic people who would contemplate using Amiga in a practical way in 2019. It's 30 year old software so I suspect not many.

SpectriaForce wrote:

spiroyster wrote:

You don't have to be a fan boi to know thats not a comparison. Aside from the obvious computer/console difference, Mario paint was no competition to Deluxe paint. 😵

Looking at the games, the Super Nintendo has great 16-bit 2D (side scroller) games, some titles available for the Amiga 500 were also available for the Super Nintendo (or Sega Genesis).

The same could be said for MS-DOS? Lots of the titles on Amiga in the early 90's were on PC too. Usually the console ports were always the worst tbh. The catalog of Amiga software dwarfs that of the SNES and MegaDrive combined. Amiga's were so much more than games, SNES and MegaDrive's were just that... games. I 'upgraded' from a MegaDrive to an Amiga in the early 90's and felt liberated. I guess if you have no emotional attachment then an Amiga couldn't mean anything beyond how you described. But for people who do, it could be a fortune in money and time... but it would still be worth it...personally I would just use an emulator.

For OP, I guess it's about messing with the hardware? ...to just play the games and check out the software... WinUAE it should be.

I suppose the biggest thing about the Amiga is the demoscene. Yes, it was also very popular as a game platform, and there are some great games on it, where often the Amiga version of a game is the best one.
But the demoscene is the true legacy of the Amiga, if you ask me. C64 made a start with crack intros that became ever more advanced, and some of the earliest standalone scene demos... But when C64 users got their hands on the Amiga, things really took off. Between 1988-1995, demos moved from simple scrollers with some bouncing sprites and such, to complete 'movies' with soundtracks intertwined with the visuals, and very sophisticated 3d effects and such, often way ahead of what actual games were capable of.
Quite a few of these demosceners ended up working in the game industry, and a few of them even created their own companies, some of which are still alive today, most notably DICE.

^^^^
Yes couldn't agree more, it was sub culture in itself at the time which has left a lasting impression on me, and exposed me to many firsts on a computer. The whole "Public Domain", the blatant piracy which gave rise the aforementioned scenes (I used to load up some of my 'not quite legally obtained' games, just to show off cracktro's to friends... usually stars spinning and scrollers with mardigras colour schemes).... by the end of the evening xcopy would by running and we would both be sifting through each others disks like playing cards. I fell in love with Psygnosis, Team17 and Microprose... it was also my first exposure to 3D graphics (which basically started my journey on the carer I am in now).

For some reason, it really felt like a platform which was not controlled by corporations, and allowed so much creative freedom and expression to the average joe... right on the tip of the upcoming wave of digital media/art of the early 90's. And I never felt left out with it (other than AGA) as no upgrades were needed to experience 99.999999% of what was available. Since I have had a PC, I have always felt like I am chasing those upgrades and what I have is never enough. Never had that feeling with an Amiga.

Also there was something quite organic about having it come through an old large 80's (faux wood) colour TV as opposed to the 'PC corner' in the house which always felt quite clinical in their all beige matching 15" CRT, neatly sorted disks, dust cover, clean keyboard, computer desk etc. Was careful about what I did on the PC as I didn't really know what I was doing at the time and knew they were expensive (didn't want to break it and ruin it for everyone else).

I got an amiga for the games, years later I ended up a software developer because of the experience. It was MY first computer! not the family/shared computer and meant I could break it the way I wanted and do what I wanted with it ...one day I got a joshua virus though... that really p*ssed me off as it spread like wildfire... didn't get that with my MegaDrive 😉

For me personally, the Amiga is one of the greatest computer platforms to have ever existed (mainly because of the software catalogue).... but I still would use an emulator these days.

And yes many Amiga's were already yellow back then... PSU's were always the first to turn... heat I guess.

spiroyster wrote:

For some reason, it really felt like a platform which was not controlled by corporations, and allowed so much creative freedom and expression to the average joe... right on the tip of the upcoming wave of digital media/art of the early 90's. And I never felt left out with it (other than AGA) as no upgrades were needed to experience 99.999999% of what was available. Since I have had a PC, I have always felt like I am chasing those upgrades and what I have is never enough. Never had that feeling with an Amiga.

Yea, exactly. I had a C64 before that, and it was mostly the same: everyone used the same computer, and there was little 'competition' or 'upgrades'. Yea, with the C64 there was still the issue of a disk drive in the early days. But later, all my friends could afford one.
With Amiga, it was much the same, the only common upgrades were a second disk drive and a 512k memory expansion, but those weren't too expensive.
It was all about using the computer, being creative.

I did some programming on my ZX81 and C64 earlier (mainly BASIC), but got serious with the Amiga, with AMOS and Blitz Basic.
And the demoscene was a big inspiration in pushing hardware, learning C and asm and optimizing code to the hilt and beyond. Which is what brought me where I am today.

SpectriaForce wrote:

spiroyster wrote:

Back in the day, all that was needed was to buy an Amiga. They came with KS and workbench, the A520, DP3, Lemmings... blah blah... Just plug it all together, no need for upgrades and plug it in to the TV, then get disk juggling.

Yes, but nowadays you buy an overpriced hyped Amiga 500 and soon will find out that there's a million things wrong with it (disk drive doesn't work, it's slow, it's yellow, capacitors need replacement etc). Super Nintendo does the same thing, loads games instantly and will last for a long time to come.

Are you shure?
Amiga 500:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https … %2F401708443879

PC:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https … %2F223180725462

These are standard prices on eBay for what I see. And buying that Amiga, you get the build in keyboard, it can be connected to a CRT television and you get the mouse. The PC need keyboard, mouse, soundcard and monitor.

Both looks like they are equally yellowed and both need recapping at some point.

If Amiga's are over priced, then PC's are indeed overpriced as well. Even more if you ask me.

SpectriaForce wrote:

brostenen wrote:

Scart is in its own nature RGB.

It was designed for RGB signal, but many SCART cables (e.g. for game consoles) are wired for composite video / audio.

Ahh... Well. Yes. You get true RGB if you are using RGB-Scart cable. The only thing that beats that setup are a real monitor. And that is only if you want resolutions higher than what games provide. Like for webpages, word processing and image editing. A lot of Amiga CRT monitors, had scart input anyway.

Scali wrote:

I suppose the biggest thing about the Amiga is the demoscene. Yes, it was also very popular as a game platform, and there are some great games on it, where often the Amiga version of a game is the best one.
But the demoscene is the true legacy of the Amiga, if you ask me. C64 made a start with crack intros that became ever more advanced, and some of the earliest standalone scene demos... But when C64 users got their hands on the Amiga, things really took off. Between 1988-1995, demos moved from simple scrollers with some bouncing sprites and such, to complete 'movies' with soundtracks intertwined with the visuals, and very sophisticated 3d effects and such, often way ahead of what actual games were capable of.
Quite a few of these demosceners ended up working in the game industry, and a few of them even created their own companies, some of which are still alive today, most notably DICE.

Like....

https://youtu.be/dsPiZuU4OXQ

It was released around 2015 or so. And shows perfectly what a stock A500 can do. Try this on a 386sx machine with 1 megabyte ram.

brostenen wrote:

It was released around 2015 or so. And shows perfectly what a stock A500 can do. Try this on a 386sx machine with 1 megabyte ram.

Yea, great demo... but ironically enough it didn't win the competition, it lost to a demo on an 8088 at 4.77 MHz with 640k and CGA 😀

SpectriaForce wrote:

spiroyster wrote:

You don't have to be a fan boi to know thats not a comparison. Aside from the obvious computer/console difference, Mario paint was no competition to Deluxe paint. 😵

Deluxe paint? 🤣 Who uses that in 2019?

Looking at the games, the Super Nintendo has great 16-bit 2D (side scroller) games, some titles available for the Amiga 500 were also available for the Super Nintendo (or Sega Genesis).

You're just being a troll... you're in a forum dedicated to retro computing, and then have to ask "who uses retro software today, people who are commenting on a message board about retro hardware?"

There are a number of "Deluxe Paint" - type and clone programs out there written for Windows 7, Mac and Linux... so apparently there is still at least some demand for such software. For one thing, it's easier to design graphics for programs and games meant to be run on legacy hardware in Deluxe Paint than in Photoshop. Photoshop is not exactly CGA-friendly. I know, having gone both routes. The best pipeline I use is to create the initial assets in Blender/GIMP/Photoshop, then export the assets to MTPaint or Deluxe Paint for refinement.

Why did Commodore not use a MOS Technology CPU in the Amiga like in all their previous computers?

Errius wrote:

Why did Commodore not use a MOS Technology CPU in the Amiga like in all their previous computers?

I suppose because MOS didn't spend enough time developing new CPUs, and they had nothing to match the 68000.
Also, remember that the Amiga was developed by another company, and just bought by Commodore when nearly all development was already done. So the choice to use a 68000 was made long before Commodore got involved. Apparently nobody saw any good reason to change to a MOS CPU that late in the project.
MOS did produce the custom-designed chips for the Amiga though, that's something that was an issue for the Amiga design. It could never work with off-the-shelf parts.

Right, the famous 'Paula'. What do people do when these fail? I assume they're no longer made.

Scali wrote:

Also, remember that the Amiga was developed by another company

I can not remember the complete story on why it went to Commodore. Explained roughly. Then Amiga INC had borrowed money from Atari to be able to finish the Amiga. One of the terms for Atari to back the project, was that Atari would have exclusive access to any Amiga technology, and if Amiga INC did not finish a working production ready machine by a certain date, then they would hand over the entire company to Atari. Or something in that neighbourhood or something like that. Now. Jack Tramiel had bought Atari after they made the deal with Amiga INC. And when Jack bought Atari after being kicked out of Commodore. Then Amiga INC found out that Jack only wanted to hire a few of Amiga INC staff and perhaps not use the entire machine. Jay Miner (father of the Amiga) was against this, as Amiga INC was a group of extremely good work buddies and friends, and they had all poured their soul into the Amiga. Jay even took a loan in his house, in order to raise money, in order for all his staff to be able to continue working together and to save the Amiga. In a last desperate attempt to save the Amiga and Amiga INC. Jay struck a deal with Commodore. Then buying, and hiring all staff from Amiga INC that wanted to work at Commodore. Commodore paid the fameous check to Atari, paying the complete loan out that Amiga INC had gotten from Atari in the first place. When Jack Tramiel finally found out about the contract, then it was kind of too late. He sued Commodore or Amiga INC for breach of contract. Well.... Jack (Atari) lost in court and as a response, Jack set Atari to work in their own 16 bit 68k based machine. The now well known Atari ST line.

I think this is about it, regarding the story behind who invented it and why Commodore got it. Roughly speaking, that is.

Don't get me wrong. Jack Tramiel was a person that gave the world some great 8-bit stuff. Like Vic-20 and C64. Yet Jack had a saying, that bussiness is like war. And boy did he do bussiness like it was war. Texas instruments had crushed all Commodore sales of calculators, and when Texas released their 8-bit computer and Jack saw how it catched on and replaced the calculator craze. Well... Then he set forth develloping the Vic-20 and that crushed the TRS-80 sales. Like I said... Just a "little friendly" payback for the calculator thing. 😁

Another thing is, that Jobs and Woz wanted to work at Commodore, and they offered the Apple-II to Commodore in exchange for employment at Commodore. Now... They were hippies, and Jack was a hardcore bussinessman that actually hated computers, and a survivor of Auswitch. (Jack was polish). And because of that, Jack lowered and hated these two longhaired punks. Commodore told Apple that they build computers for the masses, as a response to Jobs saying of We build computers for the classes. Yeah... Jack loved word play's and always wanted to say complex things and views in one simple sentence. So they told Apple that they were working on a black and white computer without sound. In reality they were working on transforming the KIM-1 into the Vic-20. No colour... Yeah right!!! 😁

Errius wrote:

Right, the famous 'Paula'. What do people do when these fail? I assume they're no longer made.

I kind of think, that people will look for FPGA solutions, once nobody can get their hands on a Paula anymore. Or microcontroller or some other technology, to drive a replacement chip's inner workings. A bit like these Re-SID or SwinSID Nano's and what else there are.

EDIT:
A bit like this here... Amiga Reborn (YouTube)
Complete implementation of the Amiga in a stanalone FPGA board, that we are still waiting for, regarding avaliability and pricing.

That makes sense. I was reading about the history of Atari a while ago and remember that when Tramiel took over, he fired everybody. That would have scared the Amiga guys, who realized that if they didn't repay the loan, this guy was going to be their boss too.