Asus P2B/-f/P3b-f, Abit BE6/BX6/BH6, AOpen AX6BC in this particular order, all will need recapping

I'll sort of hijack the thread but not really: any mATX recommendations from the same period? I want to build a nice and small Slot1 machine for a 300a@450: AGP preferred, and either an ISA slot or SB-Link header would also be nice.

athlon-power wrote:

I am thinking about creating a mid-1998 gaming build, Voodoo 2 SLI and all, but I'm wondering what a good motherboard for such a build would be. For a Pentium II 450, I'm obviously going to need a motherboard that supports a 100MHz FSB..

The system in your signature is pretty close to that already: Intel SE440BX-2, Intel Pentium III SL35E (500MHz). What do you like/dislike about it?

slivercr wrote:

I'll sort of hijack the thread but not really: any mATX recommendations from the same period? I want to build a nice and small Slot1 machine for a 300a@450: AGP preferred, and either an ISA slot or SB-Link header would also be nice.

Some examples with slot 1:
- Epox MX6B EZ 440ZX
- Intel RC440BX (no AGP slot, Riva 128 graphics)
- Intel SR440BX (no AGP slot, TNT graphics, I have one myself)
- Biostar M6TBC
- MSI MS-6156

I like the Abit BH6 because it's probably the first Slot 1 mobo with i440BX chipset that have 5 PCI slots. It can always come handy when you need a lot of cards and that you don't need as much ISA slots

I like the Asus P2B that I use currently with a PIII750 (originally a PII400)
one negative that I can think of is the lack of voltage adjustments if you like overclocking, other than that I never felt like there was anything wrong with it.

it still has the original caps

The Intel SE440BX-2 is a legendary board as its Intel's own board with the legendary BX chipset
but as you already have that....
Asus P2B family is also a legend in that period, it's main benefit over the intel board is more options in BIOS like memory timings.
Quite a few different options exist.
http://homepage.hispeed.ch/rscheidegger/p2b_p … pgrade_faq.html

Abit board is also highly regarded but doesn't seem as common as the Asus

Main thing to consider is PCI slots with a V2 SLI, add Network and sound that's 4 PCI slots.
Some cheaper motherboards may lack AGP so somethings going to have to go for that PCI graphics card.

What about the 440bx board in the HP NetServer e60?

Its dual cpu, 4 ram slots, dual scsi, agp, 6-pci, 1-isa, seems beastly to me, and very full featured.
Officially supports up to 600mhz P3.
Is this board a custom HP, or maybe its an OEM of some type of retail board?

Picture here, dont know how long the link will last tho.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/cagAAOSwWSlb5In~/s-l1600.jpg

Gigabyte GA-BX2000(+) is a great and ultra-stable board but steer clear if you plan to use a Voodoo 3; it has compatibility jumpers for out of spec AGP voltage but even so neither of the two boards I have work reliably with one. Otherwise, it's fantastic.

I would advise you to steer clear of ABIT BE6 and especially BE6-II; I've had nothing but headache with those.

I don't currently own one but back in the day my P2-300 ran on an ASUS P2B and I remember it as being a ROCK SOLID motherboard at a time when motherboards were notorious for running out of spec, incompatible with most shit or outright broken out of the gate.

Deksor wrote:

I like the Abit BH6 because it's probably the first Slot 1 mobo with i440BX chipset that have 5 PCI slots. It can always come handy when you need a lot of cards and that you don't need as much ISA slots

For me that would be the reason to recommend against it 😉

Chances that you need >4 PCI in this day and age are very low - even assuming a V2 SLI setup, you still have two left. One for a NIC and the fourth for... well, whatever. It's not like you need (or can even use) dial-up modems anymore these days. I'd far sooner expect to get stuck with the number if ISA slots - at least that's my experience.

Added issue once you go >4 slots is that the PCI bus only has 4 interrupt lines, so you can get bogged down in the esoteric world of IRQ routing, with certain combinations of certain slots not working with certain cards. With 4 slots, you just plug & play 😀

appiah4 wrote:

Gigabyte GA-BX2000(+) is a great and ultra-stable board but steer clear if you plan to use a Voodoo 3; it has compatibility jumpers for out of spec AGP voltage but even so neither of the two boards I have work reliably with one. Otherwise, it's fantastic.

I would advise you to steer clear of ABIT BE6 and especially BE6-II; I've had nothing but headache with those.

I don't currently own one but back in the day my P2-300 ran on an ASUS P2B and I remember it as being a ROCK SOLID motherboard at a time when motherboards were notorious for running out of spec, incompatible with most shit or outright broken out of the gate.

Abit's boards started to suffer from *very* bad capacitor plague around the time of the BE6-II. Quite possibly that was the issue, even if it wasn't visible.

Anyway, my recommendations:
Full ATX:
- Asus P2B (specifically for the 3rd ISA slot 😉 ), preferable >=rev 1.12 for CuMine support, although that's not immediately relevant when using a Katmai P3
- AOpen AX6BC (or AX6B-Plus if you can find it), but watch for caps in the later revisions.
- If you don't need CuMine support, an early rev MSI MS-6119 would be good (later rev have bad caps)

uATX:
- Asus P2B-VM (genius design, onboard Rage Pro on PCI bus, not AGP, so despite onboard VGA you still get AGP, 3x PCI and ISA), >rev 1.02 gives CuMine support too.
- Supermicro P6SBM (although don't expect OC options)
- Shuttle Hot687
etc...

But tbh, Slot1 uATX with AGP and ISA are so rare, just roll with whatever you find.

dionb wrote:

For me that would be the reason to recommend against it ;) […]
Show full quote

Deksor wrote:

I like the Abit BH6 because it's probably the first Slot 1 mobo with i440BX chipset that have 5 PCI slots. It can always come handy when you need a lot of cards and that you don't need as much ISA slots

For me that would be the reason to recommend against it 😉

Chances that you need >4 PCI in this day and age are very low - even assuming a V2 SLI setup, you still have two left. One for a NIC and the fourth for... well, whatever. It's not like you need (or can even use) dial-up modems anymore these days. I'd far sooner expect to get stuck with the number if ISA slots - at least that's my experience.

Added issue once you go >4 slots is that the PCI bus only has 4 interrupt lines, so you can get bogged down in the esoteric world of IRQ routing, with certain combinations of certain slots not working with certain cards. With 4 slots, you just plug & play 😀

That is not true, IRQs are still shared with some onboard peripherals (AGP, USB ...)
But since Voodoo 2s don't use IRQs, that leaves only up to three IRQs being used, which is fine.
Here's an example where you'd need 5 PCI even today : 1x nic, 2x voodoo 2, 1x PCI sound card (Sound Blaster Live!, Yamaha YMF724, Aureal Vortex) and 1x SCSI controller.
Or even 1x nic, 2x voodoo 2, 1x SCSI controller, 1x USB 2.0 controller

In my personal case, I also needed this amount of PCI slots for this : 1x nic, 2x voodoo 2, 2x PCI sound card (and 1x ISA sound card. Yeah that makes three sound cards 🤣. But the above examples are more realistic)

Sorry for the delay on my reply. I somehow forgot I had made this thread after I had to do a bunch of stuff.

gerwin wrote:

The system in your signature is pretty close to that already: Intel SE440BX-2, Intel Pentium III SL35E (500MHz). What do you like/dislike about it?

A little while after I made this post, I looked it up, and it turns out that the SE440BX-2 has been available since at least September of 1998, if not earlier. For some strange reason, I assumed it was a board from around '99 or so. I think my particular motherboard was made in 1999, but is the same exact thing as any old 1998 version, with a higher BIOS version. The best part is: you can disable the diagnostic screen, so it just shows the generic "Intel Motherboard" logo on the POST. No BIOS date to be seen! It, of course, uses the latest BIOS released for it in 2000. I will likely keep this motherboard. The original post was created out of some ignorance concerning this board's release date. The motherboard box said it supported Pentium III processors, so I assumed that it was a 1999 only board for some reason.

The more I've pushed for time-accuracy, the more I've realized that it isn't viable beyond a certain point, and if you push too hard, it just becomes idiotic. Just because my motherboard, the same exact motherboard as the 1998 release, was made in 1999, doesn't mean that I need to trade it out for another one over a time period that spans less than one year. Same goes with a processor that is only 50MHz faster than the PIII 450- and the only difference between the PIII 450 and PII 450 is SSE. They perform almost exactly the same. It is beyond likely that a PIII 500 system could have used Voodoo 2 SLI.

The fact that I purchased a stable, brand-new (I got it in the box, and the sticker to open the anti-static packaging hadn't so much as been touched), that has little history of capacitor issues and the like, the first time around, is beyond lucky. Yet I thought that for some reason, I needed one less than a year older. However, I will continue this with the same motherboard and processor- that will save me a Hell of a lot of money.

The SE400BX-2 that I have uses four PCI slots and two ISA slots. I plan to downgrade the following:

- The AW744L-II I own is from somewhere around 2000 or 2001, possibly 2002. I don't want to get parts that push Y2K in this, as I at least want a late 90's build, using parts ranging from '97 to '99. I will lessen my strict standing on time accuracy down from their prior idiotic levels, but I won't go so far as to fully stop being an idiot about it.

- The 32MB TNT2 M64 from 2001 I have. Beyond the age, the performance on this thing is terrible due to the 64-bit memory bus restriction. I actually did have a Rage 128 Pro 16MB from Dec. 1999 that I was using, but I think some of the VRAM was DOA, or, what is most likely, I damaged some of the VRAM while attempting to OC it. I don't think I'll be making the mistake of OC'ing vintage hardware again. When I saw the performance in OpenGL games versus my TNT2, I got a taste of just how bad the TNT2 really is. The Rage 128 was (in my estimates) nearly 2X faster, if not more, than that M64, with half the VRAM! All because of a proper 128-bit memory bus, and the stock VRAM and Clock speeds were also faster. This is where Voodoo 2's may possibly help- I'm thinking about a Matrox G200 for the 2D part, as I've heard very good things about image quality from those.

- The 40GB HDD I have from 2003. I'd really like to get a SCSI Ultra-2 card and stick in one of those massive ~20GB SCSI drives from around 1998-1999. Check this thing out!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FUJITSU-MAA3182SP-18 … UYTQ:rk:22:pf:0

I don't ever put any important data on these things, so I can continue getting new HDDs as they fail if need be.

- Finally, the PSU: This time, I want a new one- something like an EVGA 450BT. Reliability, and plenty enough wattage to support some of the most power-consuming hardware at the time. I feel anxious using the Dell PSU I have from around 2003, but I'm using it now because I heard very good things about it on a post I made about it a while back. The first thing I will buy when I get the money is a better PSU for the system.

Deksor wrote:

[...]

That is not true, IRQs are still shared with some onboard peripherals (AGP, USB ...)
But since Voodoo 2s don't use IRQs, that leaves only up to three IRQs being used, which is fine.

Hang on, interrupt lines != IRQ. PCI interrupts are significantly more complicated than legacy ISA IRQs

See eg. http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Plug-and-Play-HOWTO-7.html

Here are some of the details of the PCI interrupt system. Each PCI card (and device mounted on the motherboard) has 4 possible interrupts: INTA#, INTB#, INTC#, INTD#. From now on we will call them just A, B, C, and D. Each has its own pin on the edge connector of a PCI card. Thus for a 7-slot system (for 7 cards) there could be 7 x 4 = 28 different interrupt lines for these cards. Devices built into the motherboard also have additional interrupts. But the specs permit a fewer number of interrupt lines, so some PCI buses seem to be made with only 4 or 8 interrupt lines. This is not too restrictive since interrupts may be shared. For 4 interrupt line (wires, traces, or links) LNKA, LNKB, LNKC, LNKD there is a programmable "interrupt router" chip that routes LNKA, LNKB, LNKC, LNKD to selected IRQs. This routing can be changed by the BIOS or Linux. For example, LNKA may be routed to IRQ5. Suppose we designate the B interrupt from slot 3 as interrupt 3B. Then interrupts 3B and 2A could both be permanently connected to LNKA which is routed to IRQ5. These 2 interrupts: 3B and 2A are permanently shared by hardwiring on the motherboard.

[...]

A practical use for this info is that, as a last resort, one may change the IRQs of a PCI card by inserting it in a different slot. In the above example, INTA# of a PCI card will be connected to wire LNKA the card is inserted into slot 1 (1A maps to LNKA but INTA# will be connected to wire LNKB it's inserted into slot 4 (4A maps to LNKB).

Here's an example where you'd need 5 PCI even today : 1x nic, 2x voodoo 2, 1x PCI sound card (Sound Blaster Live!, Yamaha YMF724, Aureal Vortex) and 1x SCSI controller.
Or even 1x nic, 2x voodoo 2, 1x SCSI controller, 1x USB 2.0 controller

In my personal case, I also needed this amount of PCI slots for this : 1x nic, 2x voodoo 2, 2x PCI sound card (and 1x ISA sound card. Yeah that makes three sound cards 🤣. But the above examples are more realistic)

"Realistic" assuming you have a dual V2 setup, which isn't only unusual in terms of cost/rarity, but also because those cards play very nice indeed in the interrupt game. As soon as you use >4 'real' PCI cards, the fun starts.

If you want to do a multi-sound card build or something similarly specific, you need to tailor your build to that (which is why my multi-sound card build has 5 ISA slots - 4 sound cards and a Soundquest 😜 ), but there's no need to go to that sort of extreme (be it ISA or PCI) for a generic retro build.

I've read about this, and like it's said, PCI IRQs are already shared with motherboard resources (such as USB and AGP). On the BH6, AGP and PCI 1 have the same IRQ, and PCI 4 and 5 share the same IRQ too (and they also share it with USB). But this is already happening with 4 PCI slots, though in that case, there are no PCI slots sharing the same IRQs.

OP wants to build a PC with 2x Voodoo 2s

The examples I gave (except my personal setup) are what people can do when they have a Voodoo 2 SLI. No extreme on the sound side ^^

rasz_pl wrote:

Asus P2B/-f/P3b-f, Abit BE6/BX6/BH6, AOpen AX6BC in this particular order, all will need recapping

In my experience only the Abit boards from this list need recapping. The other ones have Japanese capacitors.

That EVGA 450 BT is most likely not a good PSU for this old system, because it seems to be group regulated (i.e. its performance in cross loads is horrible so it will shut down, reset or freeze your system). An old i440BX needs also a pretty strong (high amp) +5V and +3.3V output. New power supplies are designed for strong +12V lines. Only the better PSU’s with DC-DC conversion from the +12V will be able to handle the pretty extreme cross loads and can supply the amps for the +5V and +3.3V. That means you’ll end up with something that’s about 3x the price of that EVGA PSU. Yes, quality PSU’s cost money 😊

SpectriaForce wrote:

rasz_pl wrote:

Asus P2B/-f/P3b-f, Abit BE6/BX6/BH6, AOpen AX6BC in this particular order, all will need recapping

In my experience only the Abit boards from this list need recapping. The other ones have Japanese capacitors.

My P3B-F has Japanese capacitors as well . No visible issues and works fine . Not quite 1998 vintage, though .

SpectriaForce wrote:

rasz_pl wrote:

Asus P2B/-f/P3b-f, Abit BE6/BX6/BH6, AOpen AX6BC in this particular order, all will need recapping

In my experience only the Abit boards from this list need recapping. The other ones have Japanese capacitors.

While its true that Abit boards died within 3-5 years, its been 20 since P2B was manufactured. Not to mention Asus wasnt free from capacitor blunders of their own https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~portnoi/asusreworkguide.html 🙁

SpectriaForce wrote:

That EVGA 450 BT is most likely not a good PSU for this old system, because it seems to be group regulated (i.e. its performance in cross loads is horrible so it will shut down, reset or freeze your system). An old i440BX needs also a pretty strong (high amp) +5V and +3.3V output. New power supplies are designed for strong +12V lines. Only the better PSU’s with DC-DC conversion from the +12V will be able to handle the pretty extreme cross loads and can supply the amps for the +5V and +3.3V. That means you’ll end up with something that’s about 3x the price of that EVGA PSU. Yes, quality PSU’s cost money 😊

Are there specific brands I should know about? I won't be so low on money forever, and I'd like to know what sorts of brands/models of PSU I should be looking for.

athlon-power wrote:

SpectriaForce wrote:

That EVGA 450 BT is most likely not a good PSU for this old system, because it seems to be group regulated (i.e. its performance in cross loads is horrible so it will shut down, reset or freeze your system). An old i440BX needs also a pretty strong (high amp) +5V and +3.3V output. New power supplies are designed for strong +12V lines. Only the better PSU’s with DC-DC conversion from the +12V will be able to handle the pretty extreme cross loads and can supply the amps for the +5V and +3.3V. That means you’ll end up with something that’s about 3x the price of that EVGA PSU. Yes, quality PSU’s cost money 😊

Are there specific brands I should know about? I won't be so low on money forever, and I'd like to know what sorts of brands/models of PSU I should be looking for.

My experience is that in general you want to buy NOS or clean PSUs from 2004 and earlier; PSUs made with multi-core CPUs, power hungry GPUs and excessive 12V consumption are ill suited for retro systems.