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Trantor T-128 and SCSI2SD issues

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First post, by Thallanor

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I have an 8-bit ISA Trantor T-128 SCSI card that works and boots with a 49 MB Seagate ST-157N SCSI hard drive. I was able to boot from a DOS floppy, fdisk it without any drivers or anything, though I did note it only saw it as an 18 MB drive and partitioned it as such, and then I could format it, boot from it, etc.

But I wanted to go solid state, so I waited for the SCSI2SD v6 to be in stock again, and then nabbed one. (The v5 and v5.1 are often in stock but the v6 uses a different chipset, is a bit faster, allows you to connect USB to it to read and write to the SD from another computer, etc. so I held out until the v6 was in stock.)

The issue that I am now running into is that fdisk doesn't see the SCSI2SD at all. It simply reports that no fixed drives were found. When I run the SCSITEST.EXE from the red 5.25" NEC floppy that came with the Trantor, it does see it there, but fdisk refuses to. I'm wondering if using Trantor's low-level format utility, TFORMAT, might allow me to get this working, but my floppy disc doesn't contain this program. (I suspect as this card seems to be mostly packaged along with an NEC CD-ROM drive.) I've found SCSIWorks! (I think v1.3) that comes with TFORMAT, but it's v2.02 and when I run it, it can't see my Trantor controller and throws an error to that effect. There has been some speculation elsewhere that perhaps an older version (1.x?) of TFORMAT might see the controller, but I have no idea.

I'm wondering if anyone might have some suggestions, as I'm running out of options. I was wondering if maybe there was a "generic" low level format utility for DOS that might see the SCSI adapter, or if ASPI or something was an option (but even with ASPI, I'm struggling to get it to work with finding the appropriate drivers for the T-128, etc.) I have not dabbled in SCSI since the late 90s and while I set it up and used it a lot back then, my memory is crap. I'm running out of options and just don't know how to proceed.

This is all going into a Tandy 1000 TL/2 which I've seen working with the Trantor (the super multimedia TL/2 elsewhere in the forums originally used it, before he went with a Rancho 8-bit ISA SCSI card). I don't have many options apart from getting a SCSI to PCMCIA adapter and a CF card and hoping that works, but I'm afraid I might end up dumping good money onto bad going this route, and I'd rather not buy anything else unless I know 100% it is going to work (admittedly, nothing is certain, so let's say mostly certain it will work 😀 ).

Adaptec's support site still has some files for these old cards, but it's fragmented. Like for my card, I can find documentation as a download, but not actual files, but if you tweak the model a bit, I can find some things that work. Also, they seem to have a section for T128 as well as T-128 - each with different files. Just so confusing. If I could find a version of TFORMAT that would work with the T-128, that might help. But I have no idea where to start anymore. 🙁

Reply 3 of 32, by retardware

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Then it looks like that the Trantor supports only 32MB disk size and is a wrap-around type of controller.

Then the only way to make use of it is to configure the scsi2sd thingy to have 31MB size.
FYI, back then Trantor was considered as "crappy" SCSI host adapter, like the ST-01 and many others.

Reply 4 of 32, by Anonymous Coward

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Err...I'd say a bit more than 32MB. It might depend on the BIOS. The version I used to own could handle 200MB drives, and I am somewhat certain up to 1GB was possible.
ST-01 could also handle up to 1GB, but the main issue with it is lack of ASPI drivers...it doesn't support CD-ROM drives. It also normally only supports seagate drives unless you have a BIOS later than V3.3.1 or 3.3.2.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 5 of 32, by Thallanor

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Anonymous Coward wrote:

Err...I'd say a bit more than 32MB. It might depend on the BIOS. The version I used to own could handle 200MB drives, and I am somewhat certain up to 1GB was possible.
ST-01 could also handle up to 1GB, but the main issue with it is lack of ASPI drivers...it doesn't support CD-ROM drives. It also normally only supports seagate drives unless you have a BIOS later than V3.3.1 or 3.3.2.

I am running BIOS v1.12 on my Trantor T-128, which I understand was the latest. I had read elsewhere that someone thought it had a 1 GB limit, only to find they had to perform a low-level format, then they were able to use a 2 GB hard drive with it.

I should note that before I deleted the partitions on the old hard drive that came with it (the 49 MB one) that it _did_ see it as a full 49 MB drive. It wasn't until I repartitioned that it could only create an 18 MB partition. If I had another SCSI controller, I might be able to experiment more. I don't have one, but I could maybe find a cheap PCI one to put in a different system. I just can't seem to shake the feeling that in the past (way past, years ago), I would occasionally see issues when I'd move a SCSI drive from one computer or controller to another. But that might be my reverse-Alzheimers. 😀

I appreciate the feedback from everyone so far. 😀

Reply 6 of 32, by Cloudschatze

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The T-128 BIOS will support (and boot from) drives up to 1GB in size. To use the full capacity, I've always needed to partition and format using the Trantor TFORMAT utility, in conjunction with the "/S60" sector-size parameter.

Reply 7 of 32, by Thallanor

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Cloudschatze wrote:

The T-128 BIOS will support (and boot from) drives up to 1GB in size. To use the full capacity, I've always needed to partition and format using the Trantor TFORMAT utility, in conjunction with the "/S60" sector-size parameter.

That is hopeful. 😀 Do you, by chance, have TFORMAT for the T-128 that I would be able to get from you? 😀 The TFORMAT I have from a couple different sources (I think a few years newer than the T-128) can't find the controller, even though the SCSITEST (which came with my T-128) does. 😀 This is hopeful!

Reply 9 of 32, by Thallanor

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Cloudschatze wrote:

Thank you. I'll download and check when I get home. I recognize symphoniae.com though and suspect this is what I am using already. (If not v2.01 then v2.02.)

I think that if this fails to work, I am going to yank the controller from my Tandy and install it in a 386 I have sitting around and see if there is some underlying issue with the Tandy that is causing this to fail. I know that disabling certain things like FDC and HDC on the Tandy doesn't always necessarily actually disable them, and so perhaps somehow there is something still conflicting. But the fact that it boots, runs, etc. and even the SCSITEST finds it (and also finds the HDD when the HDD is installed) makes me think there is something specific to the SCSI2SD. SCSI2SD _does_ have a pile of configuration settings. (I'll attach a couple screenshots, just for example.) I've poked at some of these in a vain attempt to get it to work, but meh. I'm sort of wishing I went with the XT-IDE CF ISA card in the end. I'm worried I bit off more than I can chew. 🙁

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Reply 11 of 32, by Thallanor

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Cloudschatze wrote:

I don't have any experience with the scsi2sd device, but do change the "Device size" from 2GB to 1GB, and see if that makes a difference.

I've tried 1 GB and even 40 MB but for shits and giggles, I might try even setting it to 10 MB tonight, just to see if that gets around it. Heck, while at it, I've been tempted to try changing it from "Hard drive" to floppy or CD-ROM or magneto-optical, just to see if I can get it to do _anything_.

Thanks for the suggestions. 😀 Still at work for a few hours, then I'll test!

Reply 12 of 32, by infiniteclouds

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I'm glad to see someone else trying this as I hope to upgrade my TL/2 like this in the future and I have been holding out hope that one day an external SCSI Compact Flash reader will find its way to me. I would rather not use SD but it will be interesting to see if that is even an option. It's not like they're a cheaper option, anyway, as the external SCSI2SDs are usually 200$+. I do hope for your success, though.

I managed to find this card. It has the same FCID as the Rancho card that Cloudschatze uses and I think that at the very least it can use the same BIOS, if it doesn't already have it on there. I have yet to test it.

9xTHVSg.jpg?1

It is labeled SYSGEN Inc. but it also has "RT1000B" on there.

Reply 15 of 32, by Thallanor

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infiniteclouds wrote:

I managed to find this card. It has the same FCID as the Rancho card that Cloudschatze uses and I think that at the very least it can use the same BIOS, if it doesn't already have it on there. I have yet to test it.

Nice. Hopefully you're able to get it to work. The Rancho definitely seems to be the way to go, but given their rarity and cost, I'll be continuing to mess with the Trantor I have. I'm still experimenting with various card settings.

Reply 16 of 32, by feipoa

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Nice to see more SCSI2SD v6 devices showing up. I just ordered my second one, though not from inertial computing as I feel that this guy has questionable business practices. I hope you didn't order the unit with an SD card from that vendor. I've played around quite a bit with SCSI2SD, SCSI2SD - Comparison of SCSI SD, CF, and HDD performance . And have a few comments which may or may not help your situation.

1) If you by chance had read the above thread, I noted that there was one SD card which would not work at all. Did you try multiple SD cards?

2) It was not immediately obvious to me from the beginning, but when you change any settings on the config page, you need to re-upload the configuration file to SCSI2SD manually. It is not automatic.

3) Did you try using the Auto check box option to set your sector count and size?

4) On one of my systems, I noticed that I had to disable the SCSI terminator option on the config page, even though I only had one SCSI device installed and should have needed the terminator.

5) I sort of recall that I may have had to delete whatever partitions and drives were already installed on the SD card using a USB-to-SD reader from within WinXP. Then FDISK was able to properly view the SCSI2SD SD card.

6) Did you also try it with Parity and SCSI2 Mode enabled? I have both of those settings checked on my unit, which now resides in my super 386 system.

7) Did you try more than one 50-pin SCSI cable? Sometimes the connectors make only marginal contact with the cable, especially after repeated cable removal.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 17 of 32, by Thallanor

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feipoa wrote:

Nice to see more SCSI2SD v6 devices showing up. I just ordered my second one, though not from inertial computing as I feel that this guy has questionable business practices. I hope you didn't order the unit with an SD card from that vendor. I've played around quite a bit with SCSI2SD, SCSI2SD - Comparison of SCSI SD, CF, and HDD performance . And have a few comments which may or may not help your situation.

It's a neat device from what I've seen so far. I did order from Intertial Computing, only because I was concerned about how long it might take to receive one from their other resellers, seeing as they're in the UK, Australia, or China. The UK one kept showing "coming soon" too and then finally, even when "in stock," I reached out to them and after several days, finally received a response that no, they were not in stock, and that ordering basically pre-ordered. So I went with Intertial Computing. I ended up buying my SD card from memoryx.com, who actually have some pretty decent stock, even including 30-pin and 72-pin memory.

feipoa wrote:

1) If you by chance had read the above thread, I noted that there was one SD card which would not work at all. Did you try multiple SD cards?

I only have one SD card, unfortunately, but I am going to see if I can find another one locally for cheap.

feipoa wrote:

2) It was not immediately obvious to me from the beginning, but when you change any settings on the config page, you need to re-upload the configuration file to SCSI2SD manually. It is not automatic.

Yup! My biggest issue in the beginning was actually not noticing that it wasn't automatically _loading_ the profile when reconnecting the device. 😀

feipoa wrote:

3) Did you try using the Auto check box option to set your sector count and size?

Yup! I experimented with this a little bit.

feipoa wrote:

4) On one of my systems, I noticed that I had to disable the SCSI terminator option on the config page, even though I only had one SCSI device installed and should have needed the terminator.

I never tested this, though it might be worth experimenting with.

feipoa wrote:

5) I sort of recall that I may have had to delete whatever partitions and drives were already installed on the SD card using a USB-to-SD reader from within WinXP. Then FDISK was able to properly view the SCSI2SD SD card.

I managed to low-level format the SD card from my laptop, with the SCSI2SD connected by USB. I then created, deleted, etc. partitions from my laptop in hoping of getting something to work.

feipoa wrote:

6) Did you also try it with Parity and SCSI2 Mode enabled? I have both of those settings checked on my unit, which now resides in my super 386 system.

Yup! I think I experimented with every combination of checkboxes there. 😀

feipoa wrote:

7) Did you try more than one 50-pin SCSI cable? Sometimes the connectors make only marginal contact with the cable, especially after repeated cable removal.

I did. I only have one extra, but did test it.

Now with this all being said, I have found some success.

My first mistake was always leaving the SCSI2SD connected by USB. So long as this was connected by USB, it seemed nothing would work. I suppose in retrospect, this makes complete sense. So tonight, the first thing I did was disconnect the USB and boot my Tandy and viola, fdisk found the SCSI2SD and I was able to partition. But here is where things get very interesting. I first set the drive size in the config software to 10 MB, just going as small as I could. fdisk saw it as an 18 MB drive. I think started experimenting. 2 GB? No fixed disks found. 1 GB (1024 MB)? No fixed disks found. 1000 MB? Bingo. But it sees it as a 305 MB drive. 512 MB drive? It sees it as 180 MB. 200 MB drive? It sees it as a 60 MB drive. Basically, apart from when I set it to 10 MB in the beginning, it always seems to see the size of the drive as one-third what I have it set to. Not that I'm complaining about 305 MB of solid state storage vs. the 40 MB spinning platter that the computer shipped with, but it still bugs me. The other thing to note is anything that touches system files seems to be slow as hell. Like partitioning? Fast. Formatting? Fast. _Until_ (because using format c: /s) it starts copying system files, then the drive activity light goes absolutely solid for minutes. Not even a hint of a flicker. And the amount of time it sits here churning seems to increase based on the size of the drive I created. Once this is done though, it's super fast. I can copy files to the drive and around the drive quickly. It does this even after once again experimenting with various combinations of settings on the SCSI2SD as well as a couple options on the Trantor (basically, it just has 0 wait state and very little else for settings apart from boot ROM enable, memory address (tried a couple different ones - no difference) and that's about it. Oh, and after formatting, always have to do an fdisk /mbr or else it won't boot from the drive.

So yeah. I sort of have it working. But it's frustrating that it's only seeing one-third of the size I set and a bit of a bother that it churns so much when doing system file changes. I can live with the latter though, as it's not going to be often that's touched.

I'm curious if anyone else has seen anything similar with the one-third size thing or if it rings a bell. 😀

Reply 18 of 32, by feipoa

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Did you get a class 10 card or better? Luckily, low-sized SD cards are cheap.

Yes, I think it is a mistake not to load the card's config file upon USB connection. I'm not sure why its written like this.

If I recall, I think I had to create the partitions in FDISK for them to work properly.

I think you should be able to leave the USB line connected when booting because it is used for debugging. I may be wrong, but the SCSI2SD creator had asked me to do this when I was having issues. If all fails, you can also send him an email.

Does your SCSI controller used some kind of non-standard translation scheme? Or not support a particular block size? Perhaps you can experiment with different block sizes. If Fdisk doesn't let you, then maybe in Partition Magic?

fdisk /mbr after each format. Hmm... So the MBR is getting messed up. I've had to do this if I use Norton Ghost and change the partition size that is coppied to.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 19 of 32, by Thallanor

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feipoa wrote:
Did you get a class 10 card or better? Luckily, low-sized SD cards are cheap. […]
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Did you get a class 10 card or better? Luckily, low-sized SD cards are cheap.

Yes, I think it is a mistake not to load the card's config file upon USB connection. I'm not sure why its written like this.

If I recall, I think I had to create the partitions in FDISK for them to work properly.

I think you should be able to leave the USB line connected when booting because it is used for debugging. I may be wrong, but the SCSI2SD creator had asked me to do this when I was having issues. If all fails, you can also send him an email.

Does your SCSI controller used some kind of non-standard translation scheme? Or not support a particular block size? Perhaps you can experiment with different block sizes. If Fdisk doesn't let you, then maybe in Partition Magic?

fdisk /mbr after each format. Hmm... So the MBR is getting messed up. I've had to do this if I use Norton Ghost and change the partition size that is coppied to.

Yup! I made sure to nab a Class 10 SD card! Everything seems to work well now apart from it seeing the drive as a third of what it really is, but I'll experiment as you recommend with non-standard block sizes. The good news is that it seems that just making most changes to the drive using the SCSI2SD software, if I cannot boot or see it, if I change back, the original partition is still there, so at least I don't have to repartition after every change.

I think you're right about being able to leave the USB connected for debugging. I tried that too, briefly, even though I had no idea what I was seeing. 😀

I might give the creator a buzz and see if he might have some ideas. I mean, 305 MB is still way better than 40 MB spinning disk, but still. If I could get it to take the full 1,000 MB (1024 seems to be more than my controller will take 😀 ) then I'd be laughing.

I do not know much about my Trantor apart from it's one of the few 8-bit ISA adapters with a boot ROM, which is why I nabbed it. 😀 I'm still tempted to try getting a cheap cheap cheap SCSI adapter just to try repartitioning the SD card with, and see then if the Trantor will take it. The hard drive that came with the Trantor was partitioned larger than what I was able to repartition it as after, so that's probably how it was done there too. I'm not sure about translation schemes in general, especially on this card. So different block sizes might help. I see to recall reading somewhere though that it's 512 for the Trantor, which is what's being used.

As for Partition Magic and the like, I did try that, though that broke the partition. 😀 I expanded it to fit the space (at the time, I think I had the SD set to 200 MB and tried to expand the partition from the 60 MB fdisk saw, to the full 200 MB). When I booted, the screen just scrolled with "Unable to boot" and the floppy drive went nuts. 😀

You've given me lots to think about and try. I'll see what I can do today. Thanks!