VOGONS


First post, by Ozzuneoj

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I picked up one of those nifty old Intergraph keyboards with the built in speakers recently and I just attempted to test it. The keyboard works fine and feels pretty decent, but there is no sound coming from the speakers at all. The switches all seem to change the lights as expected (switching it on, switching between stereo and SRS mode, hitting mute, etc). The power LED does flicker once when I turn it on... like, it'll come on and go dim briefly, then come back on and stay on. It does this pretty much every time I switch it on. There is absolutely no hiss, pop, crackle or hum of any kind coming from the speakers, even when switching on or playing with the volume control.

My ability to diagnose things like this is pretty limited, but I did a few basic things. First, I opened it up and checked it out and it looks very nice inside. It was really dusty in the key-area but in the enclosed area for the amplifier circuitry it is clean. There's no sign of any capacitor leakage, burnt\broken traces, overheated components, etc. Using my DMM I checked the speakers and they are both showing 7.6ohms, so they should be fine. I checked continuity from the three points on the 3.5mm audio input jack to the three pins at the other end inside the keyboard and it seems perfect so the cable is intact. I've tried powering it via they keyboard port (it has an adapter for this) as well as powering it with a 12v power brick that I know works and it made no difference (it also does not change the power LED dimming before turning on). The label on the back of the keyboard says it expects a 9v power brick but the actual documentation says 9-12v input and the TEA2025B can handle from 3v to 15v, so a 12v brick should be fine (and it was the only one that fit). The polarity is also correct. I also tried cleaning out the volume pot with deoxit D5 because it was really sticky sounding, almost like there was a ton of grease inside it. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but I figured it was possible that any grease added to make it feel smooth could have gotten into the pot eventually and stopped it from working. It now turns very smoothly and silently but there's still no sound from the speakers.

Here is a gallery of some pics I took of the internals:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LPaiK2iWDYySutwBA

The components all appear to be good quality. The electrolytic caps are all ELNA. Some are (M) some are (S).

I got this fairly cheaply, so I'd love to fix this thing.

Other than the optional SRS circuitry (its on a separate board and is likely only used if SRS is switched on) it uses almost entirely passive components. If the TEA2025B was bad, how would I go about testing it?

Here is the datasheet for the keyboard: https://datasheet.octopart.com/RT915CTW-NMB-d … eet-7272685.pdf
And the TEA2025B amplifier it uses: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/389/stmicr … 172-1204396.pdf

EDIT: I just tested the microphone on the keyboard and it works fine. I also tested the headphone output and subwoofer output and they both appear to be passing audio through from the 3.5mm input jack as expected (as long as the power switch is turned on). I wonder if that amp is toast or if some of the caps have gone totally out of spec. I've used equipment far older than this and not had these problems, but then I'm not familiar with mid-90s era ELNA capacitors.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 1 of 24, by Ozzuneoj

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Anyone have any thoughts? I've been trying to figure out at least how to test the TEA2025B in circuit, but I'm just kind of going in circles.

If capacitors were the cause, is there likely a specific one (or a few) that are capable of basically making the amp totally non-functional? I've heard of out-of-spec caps making things sound bad or filtering noise poorly, but this is the opposite. This is a complete lack of any noise (hiss, pop, buzz... anything) coming from either speaker.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 2 of 24, by Tiido

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No pops etc. suggests the TEA2025 is most likely faulty. Does it get power and what is the voltage reading on its pins ? In complete silence state most of the pins should read a voltage about half of power supply voltage it is getting.

Bad capacitors usually will a least let the pops through and you'd possibly get really quiet and tinny sound with no sort low freq response.

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Reply 4 of 24, by Ozzuneoj

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yawetaG wrote:

Dead volume control pot? On some stuff the volume control only affects the on-board sound generation, not sound that gets input to it.

I think the volume pot is okay because it still affects the volume of the sub and headphone outputs.

Tiido wrote:

No pops etc. suggests the TEA2025 is most likely faulty. Does it get power and what is the voltage reading on its pins ? In complete silence state most of the pins should read a voltage about half of power supply voltage it is getting.

Bad capacitors usually will a least let the pops through and you'd possibly get really quiet and tinny sound with no sort low freq response.

That's what I was thinking. Problem is, I really don't know how to measure the voltage of one of these chips in circuit and i don't want to screw it up. I assume I would test an output pin for AC voltage (since it's going to a speaker), correct? Where do I actually put the + and - leads of my DMM? I ask because I tested an old amp wrongly one time and it never turned on again. 🤣

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 5 of 24, by Tiido

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You'll attach black wire to any of the GND pins and then use the red one on the remaining.
+Vs should read 9...12V (depending on the power supply used), most rest of the pins should read close to half of that voltage, especially OUT.x pins.

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Reply 7 of 24, by dkarguth

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don't rule out capacitors just because they look fine. Any old electrolytic capacitor ought to be replaced before seriously using a device that old. It is possible that a filter cap is shorted, and is shunting the audio signal to ground. I would check the capacitors just to make sure.

"And remember, this fix is only temporary, unless it works." -Red Green

Reply 8 of 24, by Ozzuneoj

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Tiido wrote:
TEA2025.png

You'll attach black wire to any of the GND pins and then use the red one on the remaining.
+Vs should read 9...12V (depending on the power supply used), most rest of the pins should read close to half of that voltage, especially OUT.x pins.

Okay, I just did some measurements. I have no idea what these mean, but here is what I measured:

VS+= 13.3
Out.1= 6.4
Boot.1= 13.3
Feedback= .518
In.1= .002

Bridge= 0.064
Out.2= 6.4
Boot.2= 13.3
Feedback=0.518
IN.2= .002
SVR= 12.2

I measured the 12v input pins (coming from the power adapter, going into the amp board) and it is 13.4v.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 10 of 24, by Ozzuneoj

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chrismeyer6 wrote:

Does the volume knob control the output of the headphone jack?

Yes it does, and it works fine.

I checked all the caps and none are shorted at least. It just seems odd that any of these would be so bad that nothing would function at all... no pops when powering on or off, no hiss, no noise at all. From personal experience, I have never needed to replace any through hole aluminum electrolytic caps from the 90s that have a reputable brand name and no visible sign of failure or damage (surface mount aluminum electrolytics are another story).

I also just measured the "IN" pins on the TEA2025 with a source connected to the input jack and it made no difference in the measured voltage.

Going by my measurements of the TEA2025, does it seem like it is okay?

Last edited by Ozzuneoj on 2019-05-06, 01:13. Edited 1 time in total.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 11 of 24, by chrismeyer6

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It's probably a safe bet the amp chip is good if the headphone jack is functional. Have you tried checking the speakers themselves to make sure there not dead

Reply 12 of 24, by Ozzuneoj

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chrismeyer6 wrote:

It's probably a safe bet the amp chip is good if the headphone jack is functional. Have you tried checking the speakers themselves to make sure there not dead

I just tested them with a battery and they work.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 14 of 24, by Ozzuneoj

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chrismeyer6 wrote:

It's good they work this is kind of a odd issue with this. Do you have continuity between the speaker connector back to the amp chip?

I've been trying to do this, but it's proving to be quite a bit more complicated than I thought. There's... just nothing. Nothing connecting anything to the speakers. I have no idea how. All of the speaker connections on the right-side pin block seem to congregate at the headphone jack, but the signal isn't coming back OUT. This would make sense if there was some kind of auto-sensing deal with the headphone jack, but there's nothing plugged into it...

... wait! Maybe that's the problem? Maybe the jack is messed up. Which would explain why it actually works for headphones but I get no output at all from the speakers.

Let me see...

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 15 of 24, by chrismeyer6

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That could definitely be the issue. If the headphone jack is bad then that would explan why there's no sound from the speakers. See if you can look inside the jack maybe something is stuck inside it or pins are touching or shorted

Reply 16 of 24, by Ozzuneoj

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chrismeyer6 wrote:

That could definitely be the issue. If the headphone jack is bad then that would explan why there's no sound from the speakers. See if you can look inside the jack maybe something is stuck inside it or pins are touching or shorted

Thanks for helping me with this. 😀

I haven't fixed it yet, but this very well could be the problem.

I found some schematics of some headphone jacks:
https://sudomod.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701

Sadly, none of these look like the one I'm dealing with, so it's hard to say what's going on inside it.

I will say, there's definitely nothing coming back OUT of the headphone jack, into the speakers, and there is supposed to be a connection there.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 17 of 24, by chrismeyer6

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Not a problem I hope we can get this solved for you. I just had an idea looking at the picture of the headphone jack board. Using some short jumper wires jumping the connections for the speakers in the connector on that board bypassing the headphone jack to see if sound will come out of the speakers. If you get sound then we know where to put our focus. Would you mind taking some more pictures of the headphone jack board?

Reply 18 of 24, by Ozzuneoj

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I got it!

I had a paperclip with a very short, 90 degree bend in it that I'd "made" a while back for a specific purpose. I put it into the headphone jack and used it to pull the two pins (one on either side) away, in the opposite direction that a plug would push them. I pulled them away a little bit, tested two pins for continuity (right speaker and right headphone) and sure enough, they finally had continuity! When I powered the unit on, the speakers gave a slight bump and I knew it was finally fixed. I just tested it with my phone and the speakers sound really good considering they're built into a PC keyboard. I don't know how reliable this will be if I intend to use headphones periodically, but it works now! Now that I think about it, this fix could be done with the unit completely assembled since I did it from the outside of the jack. I'll probably test the jack a couple times and if it does it again I'll just tug the contacts in a bit more. If I can get it to hold up to a few insertions of the jack, I'll put it all back together and call it good. If it happens later I can do the same thing with it fully assembled. If it keeps happening... eh... if I ever find a similar jack (not likely... they're long, flat and a bit odd looking) I can replace it, but I got this keyboard for $18 shipped, so I'm not going to go to crazy with it.

Thank you again for the help!

EDIT: Still seems a bit touchy. Basically, every time I insert a plug into the jack it stops the speakers from working until I use something to pull the tab back out again. It appears to be the tab on the right side of the jack (if looking at it from the front). I'd dismantle it to see if I could fix it, but without a replacement I'd be worried that I'd break it permanently.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 19 of 24, by Tiido

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I have totally forgotten about the thread. I have missed the headphones working part so that changes everything and the problem is entirely mechanical as you have found out now.
Only good solution is to bypass or replace the headphone connector. Bending pins back to shape or cleaning them usually doesn't provide a lasting solution.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜