VOGONS


Reply 20 of 50, by keropi

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appiah4 wrote:
keropi wrote:
appiah4 wrote:

Any help would be appreciated at this point, I'm even OK with covering shipping to and from someone who wants to have a hand at repairint it for me as a project.

I would re-check the keyboard traces and made sure they are OK
also try to connect a battery and see if that helps... but my money is on the keyboard and nearby traces - something is broken there and causes this slow boot

I have checked them again and again, but I will try one more time tonight. This board has me tearing out my hair, I desperately want to get it to work so I can replace the SX-25 in my 386SX build with it.. It would be SO much faster.

then why not just cut the pins of the keyboard controller - desolder them one-by-one (easier) and replace it? just to rule it out and check the traces under it.
I would also check the whole bottom side of the board - maybe there is a scratch somewhere. I've had this in the past and I was getting anything from a board not booting to freeze.

I am also a fan of 386sx+cache - it makes a HUGE difference.

@Grzyb
yes totally agree - I always view the cacheless 386sx boards as 286 ones with 386 instructions. Very handy 😊

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Reply 21 of 50, by derSammler

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Scali wrote:

The performance difference between a 386SX and 386DX is not all that big in practice (the ISA bus is only 16-bit anyway, and is a big bottleneck for the DX).

Sorry to say, but that is just completely wrong. The 386sx performs like a 286. The only difference to a 286 is that it can execute 32-bit code and may have external cache. There are cases where a 286 at the same clock speed can even perform slightly faster than a 386sx. The ISA bus is not important here. The 386DX is a true 32-bit architecture, whereas the 386sx sits on a 16-bit bus and often outdated chipset, which makes accessing everything ouside the chip, including memory and fpu (if present), very slow. Mind you, I did compare various systems using 286, 386sx, 386DX, 486slc etc. to each other and know the difference.

It's also important to understand that most benchmarks are so small that they run in the cache. If you benchmark a 386DX against a 386sx with ext. cache, difference in speed may seem low. But once you try some real memory-demanding application, like DOOM or Ultima Underworld for example, the 386sx just sucks. With an OPTi chipset anyway.

So it may be quite a high-end 386SX board (which would make sense, given the 40 MHz CPU).

There is no such thing as a "high-end 386SX board". Also, I never had a 386sx board in my possession that did not allow to optionally install up to 64k ext. cache. That's not high-end.

Reply 22 of 50, by Scali

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derSammler wrote:

Sorry to say, but that is just completely wrong.

Nope.

derSammler wrote:

The 386sx performs like a 286. The only difference to a 286 is that it can execute 32-bit code and may have external cache. There are cases where a 286 at the same clock speed can even perform slightly faster than a 386sx.

That part is correct.

However, from there, you assume that because a 386SX is about the same performance as a 286, a 386DX has to be faster. This assumption is flawed.
Check out some instruction timing tables between 286 and 386, you'll see that most instructions are more or less the same speed on both CPUs. Sometimes the 286 is one or two clks faster(!), sometimes the 386 is. In the end, it's all marginal.
This one for example: http://aturing.umcs.maine.edu/~meadow/courses … -Set-Clocks.pdf
Or the 'opcodes.chm' file that can be found in MASM32.

derSammler wrote:

The 386DX is a true 32-bit architecture, whereas the 386sx sits on a 16-bit bus and often outdated chipset, which makes accessing everything ouside the chip, including memory and fpu (if present), very slow.

We are talking about the PC architecture here, which is based around 8-bit chipsets from the 1970s.
The IBM AT wtih the 286 had a chipset that was actually clocked SLOWER than an XT., because they still made use of the same 8-bit chips from the 1970s (Intel 82xx series).
The 386 did not introduce anything new in terms of motherboard/chipset technology, aside from the 32-bit bus and caching. It's still the same AT logic, based on 1970s chips.
There may be some late 386 chipsets that are faster than the early ones, but even then, it's not like you're totally getting all that 32-bit goodness out of your CPU. You're still stuck to 8/16-bit port I/O, 16-bit ISA buses at 8 MHz, and a mostly useless DMA controller (and your video card, HDD controller etc all have to work via that bus). It wasn't until the introduction of VLB and PCI that chipsets could really make significant differences, because you now had actual 32-bit buses running at high clockspeeds, and there were new ways of performing DMA/bus mastering etc.

So yes, memory is faster *if* you run 32-bit code, because otherwise your instructions only access 16-bit words anyway, so half the bus is wasted.
And hardly anyone used an FPU (and as a result most software also didn't support it. Games certainly didn't), so that didn't factor into performance anyway, for most users.

derSammler wrote:

There is no such thing as a "high-end 386SX board".

Sure there is. This board contains cache sockets. Most 386SX boards I've seen (including various OEM systems from brands like Commodore and Goldstar), did not. Being able to add cache is a high-end feature.
Boards like these are not high-end:
vlsi_311_386sx_ver_1.0_386_isa_motherboard2.jpg
They're basically the same as 286 boards from that era, just a different CPU on them. Sometimes literally, since many chipsets are 286/386SX.
Maybe you've never seen one, doesn't mean they don't exist. You could have googled when I said they do exist, and you would have found them.

Last edited by Scali on 2019-07-18, 08:55. Edited 9 times in total.

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Reply 23 of 50, by appiah4

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keropi wrote:

then why not just cut the pins of the keyboard controller - desolder them one-by-one (easier) and replace it? just to rule it out and check the traces under it.
I would also check the whole bottom side of the board - maybe there is a scratch somewhere. I've had this in the past and I was getting anything from a board not booting to freeze.

Can I replace it with any 40 pin KBC or do I have to find the exact same model? This may sound stupid, but I really don't know 😵 I have a Holtek HT6542B I can scavenge from a damaged 440LX board, for example..

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Reply 24 of 50, by Tiido

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The keyboard controllers are interchangeable, at least I never had issues with swapping them out with others.

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Reply 25 of 50, by Grzyb

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Scali wrote:
derSammler wrote:

There is no such thing as a "high-end 386SX board".

Sure there is.

You're both right, just in different sense...

386SX/40 with cache is the fastest of 386SX systems, so in this category, it can be called "high-end".
BTW: 386SX boards with VLB do exist, so the real ultimate 386SX machine would be 386SX/40 + cache + VLB.

In a broader view, however, top-of-the-line systems were 386DX -> 486DX -> 486DX2 -> Pentium, so 386SX and 486SX were secondary products from the beginning.
Especially the 386SX/40 - they were introduced very late, by AMD, Intel has probably already withdrawn themselves from the 386 genre, I recall such machines mass-selling in 1993, maybe even later, when Pentiums were already available.
So yes, "high-end 386SX" does sound like an oxymoron here.

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Reply 26 of 50, by Scali

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Grzyb wrote:

So yes, "high-end 386SX" does sound like an oxymoron here.

I don't see why.
It's high-end in the range of 386SX boards.
Not high-end in terms of what was available in general. But I never said that, obviously.
It's just that even within the 386SX range, you have cheap/simple boards, and more expensive/feature-rich boards.

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Reply 27 of 50, by Grzyb

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Yes, that's precisely what I've written.

Still, find some computer price list from eg. 1993...
At the top, you will find 486DX2/66 machines - therefore high-end.
In the middle, various 486DX, 486SX, 386DX stuff.
And at the very bottom, 386SX boxes - so... yes, low-end!

Żywotwór planetarny, jego gnijące błoto, jest świtem egzystencji, fazą wstępną, i wyłoni się z krwawych ciastomózgowych miedź miłująca...

Reply 28 of 50, by Scali

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Grzyb wrote:
Still, find some computer price list from eg. 1993... At the top, you will find 486DX2/66 machines - therefore high-end. In the […]
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Still, find some computer price list from eg. 1993...
At the top, you will find 486DX2/66 machines - therefore high-end.
In the middle, various 486DX, 486SX, 386DX stuff.
And at the very bottom, 386SX boxes - so... yes, low-end!

Not really. There was/is a huge difference between cheap no-brand clones and brands like Compaq and IBM.
It was not uncommon that a branded 386 cost more than the cheapest 486 machines.
So I also wouldn't be surprised if the most expensive 386SX you could find, would be more expensive than a cheap 386DX/486SX machine.

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Reply 29 of 50, by Grzyb

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Scali wrote:

So I also wouldn't be surprised if the most expensive 386SX you could find, would be more expensive than a cheap 386DX/486SX machine.

Sure, if somebody really wanted it, it was possible to order a 386SX with 16 MB RAM, a huge HDD (even SCSI), TIGA graphics coprocessor, 16-bit sound card, and so on - and it would all cost more than a basic 486DX2/66.
However, typical 386SX machines I recall from the era had 2 MB RAM, 40..120 MB IDE HDD, 512 KB dumb framebuffer, and a DIY Covox 😁
Those who could afford better peripherals, also had the money for a better CPU.

Żywotwór planetarny, jego gnijące błoto, jest świtem egzystencji, fazą wstępną, i wyłoni się z krwawych ciastomózgowych miedź miłująca...

Reply 30 of 50, by keropi

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appiah4 wrote:

Can I replace it with any 40 pin KBC or do I have to find the exact same model? This may sound stupid, but I really don't know 😵 I have a Holtek HT6542B I can scavenge from a damaged 440LX board, for example..

Tiido wrote:

The keyboard controllers are interchangeable, at least I never had issues with swapping them out with others.

I did some testing with the PS/2 KBC hack that Rio444 released , I have found that not all KBC are compatible. Yes I know it sounds strange but swapping several KBC around (without any kind of mod to them) I found it to be true. I could kinda understand that the "modern" VIA controllers I had would not work on a 286/386 system but when I used old era-appropriate controllers and saw that they are not universal replacements I was baffled. But sure enough, if you take a 386DX40 controller and put it on another 386DX40 system there is a small chance it won't work at all and the board won't boot.
So keep that in mind that this possibility exists.

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Reply 31 of 50, by matze79

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The 386SX was used a long time in industrial control systems.
Specially the 386SX 40.

16bit only let you design much less complex PCBs.

Intels 386SX / EX remained in Production until 2007

Last edited by matze79 on 2019-07-18, 09:50. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 32 of 50, by appiah4

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keropi wrote:
I did some testing with the PS/2 KBC hack that Rio444 released , I have found that not all KBC are compatible. Yes I know it sou […]
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appiah4 wrote:

Can I replace it with any 40 pin KBC or do I have to find the exact same model? This may sound stupid, but I really don't know 😵 I have a Holtek HT6542B I can scavenge from a damaged 440LX board, for example..

Tiido wrote:

The keyboard controllers are interchangeable, at least I never had issues with swapping them out with others.

I did some testing with the PS/2 KBC hack that Rio444 released , I have found that not all KBC are compatible. Yes I know it sounds strange but swapping several KBC around (without any kind of mod to them) I found it to be true. I could kinda understand that the "modern" VIA controllers I had would not work on a 286/386 system but when I used old era-appropriate controllers and saw that they are not universal replacements I was baffled. But sure enough, if you take a 386DX40 controller and put it on another 386DX40 system there is a small chance it won't work at all and the board won't boot.
So keep that in mind that this possibility exists.

I guess I could remove the KBC and solder in a socket, but the issue with that is the placement of the KBC; many ISA cards won't fit with the raised socket in there..

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Reply 33 of 50, by Scali

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Grzyb wrote:

Sure, if somebody really wanted it, it was possible to order a 386SX with 16 MB RAM, a huge HDD (even SCSI), TIGA graphics coprocessor, 16-bit sound card, and so on - and it would all cost more than a basic 486DX2/66.

That's not what I mean.
I mean similarly specced machines, which were MUCH more expensive from high-end brands like Compaq and IBM.

Grzyb wrote:

However, typical 386SX machines I recall from the era had 2 MB RAM, 40..120 MB IDE HDD, 512 KB dumb framebuffer, and a DIY Covox 😁
Those who could afford better peripherals, also had the money for a better CPU.

That's not the point, because you'd still be shopping for cheap no-brand machines.
See here for example:
https://books.google.com/books?id=LpkFEO2FG8s … epage&q&f=false

On page 35 you find a no-brand 486SX-25 for $999, with 2 MB.
And another on page 366, with 4 MB.
On page 48 you find a Gateway 386SX-25 for $1299.
Sure, it has 4 MB rather than 2 MB, but that doesn't explain the $300 price difference with the first one. And Gateway wasn't even such an expensive brand. I'm sure an IBM or Compaq 386SX would be even more expensive.
There's another 386SX-33 with 2 MB on page 188, for $999, again not even a brand PC. But that 486SX-25 at $999 is certainly the better deal.
And a Dell 386SX-25 with 2 MB on page 314, at $1199.

There's a Compaq 386SX-25 at page 388, at $919, but no monitor included, unlike the above 486SX machines. You're probably not going to find an SVGA monitor for the $80 price difference.

There's not that much 'wiggle room' there. So a brand 386SX with similar specs is more expensive than that 486SX-25.

Also check out the 486DX2-66 test in there. There are huge price differences between brands. The cheapest one is $2260. The most expensive ones are $5192 (Compaq) and $5415 (IBM). That can't just be explained by differences in specs. You also pay a premium for build quality etc.

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Reply 34 of 50, by Grzyb

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Scali wrote:

I mean similarly specced machines, which were MUCH more expensive from high-end brands like Compaq and IBM.

OK, but no matter which brand you choose, within that brand late 386SX boxes were the cheapest, so again, LOW-END.
Heh, in that PC Mag 26 jan 1993, I've found some "Compudyne" ad, and the cheapest model is 386DX/33, no 386SX at all - I guess in the West they were already considered obsolete, but here, in the East, I clearly recall they still did sell well.

Żywotwór planetarny, jego gnijące błoto, jest świtem egzystencji, fazą wstępną, i wyłoni się z krwawych ciastomózgowych miedź miłująca...

Reply 35 of 50, by appiah4

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There can be high end motherboards for lower performance CPU platforms.

There were high end motherboards and chipsets for the AMD Piledriver/Bulldozer CPUs despite them being underdogs to what Intel had to offer at the time. You can't call an AMD990 motherboard low end because the performance wasn't there; high-end is not all about performance, it's also about features, build quality and price point.

Take workstation graphics cards for example, most are dogs compared to consumer 3D accelerators but they cost tenfold, are they low end?

I understand where the "386SX is a low performance part, the motherboards can't be high end" argument is coming from but I think it's flawed. You are mixing up Low-performance with Low-end.

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Reply 36 of 50, by Scali

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Grzyb wrote:

OK, but no matter which brand you choose, within that brand late 386SX boxes were the cheapest, so again, LOW-END.

But that's not what I said. You are now pulling it out of context.
The context was:
"high-end 386SX"
As in: Within the range of 386SX machines on the market, this one is in the higher regions in terms of features and performance (and by extension, presumably also in price, because even adding empty cache sockets requires extra space and routing on the PCB, and additional parts. Let alone if you populate these with actual cache chips. The board I showed, with no cache sockets on the PCB whatsoever, will be cheaper to design and manufacture).

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Reply 38 of 50, by appiah4

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Anders- wrote:

When introduced the 386SX was the middle option, with the 386DX above and the 286 below.

While techincally true this held for slightly over a year or so, the 386SX was introduced in 1988 and the 486DX came in late-1989. By 1990 the 386DX was the middle option and 386SX become the low-end CPU. This was the statusquo until the 486SX was introduced in late 1991. the 386DX-486SX-486DX low-mid-high end tier list held for a very long time afterwards.

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