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PCIE Graphics Card

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Reply 20 of 52, by The Serpent Rider

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No such thing as retro PCI-E.

That stuff is 15 years old already.

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Reply 21 of 52, by SPBHM

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agent_x007 wrote:
I tested my FX 1300 with X5650 at 3,2GHz (Core/UnCore) : 99 Max : 9971 […]
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I tested my FX 1300 with X5650 at 3,2GHz (Core/UnCore) :
99 Max : 9971

3DMark 99 Max.jpg

2000 : 6103

3DMark 2000.jpg

2001 SE : 8075

3DMark 2001 SE.jpg

2003 : 3203

3DMark 2003 (v0.3.5).jpg

looks much lower than a 5900se,
I wonder if it would perform more like it should on XP...

Reply 22 of 52, by mrgreen

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The Serpent Rider wrote:

No such thing as retro PCI-E.

That stuff is 15 years old already.

When I read the topic title, I said to me: " There is NO retro PCI-Express card, because PCI-E is new".
However, it's 15 years old and my AIW x1900 works on Windows 10 but it has generic driver.
For Windows 98, I think the best for compatibility is a GeForce 6800 Ultra.

My first PC had Windows 98 os.

Reply 23 of 52, by duga3

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Warlord wrote:

Except you didn't use the same driver to test both cards. admittedly.

I plan on trying the modded 82.69 drivers on FX1300 as well. Is that what you meant?

Not sure if most people here are aware but NVIDIA website driver search tool lists exactly z e r o drivers for FX1300 for Win98. I think that is a clear warning sign that something is not right with FX1300 under Win98 🤣 You need to manually look into INF files of various drivers to find where the FX1300 is "officially" supported. I only found 2 drivers, 61.76 and 66.94 - correct me if you find more "officially" supported drivers. And neither of those 2 drivers is compatible with 7950GT AFAIK.

That leaves us with modded 82.69 which I will test later. It would be nice if these kept compatibility with 8-bit paletted textures and table fog which are not working on newer 7950GT anymore I think - if you have tips for games where to test these let me know.

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)

Reply 24 of 52, by Warlord

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Ya I just meant in hinds sight

hypothesis was that since the QuadroFX1300 uses a FX GPU that it would have better retro compatibility than a 7 series becasue of the lack of tablefog and palleted texture support in later cards.
Again Driver optimization issues plague the card but it that can be worked around, it could be a great card for the price.
The card use is very niche but it offers backwards compatibility in a more modern motherboard.

other Hypothesis was the card uses the same GPU as a 5950 but it is beleive the GPU clock is artificially low, and that there is a ton of overclocking potential for the GPU.
The Memory on the sample I acquired was hynix hy5du283222a F-28 which is same ram used in a 9800XT so its also low.

8 bit paletted texture It's difficult to know,
FFVII is the most famous,
Metal Gear Solid 1 (Unverified)
Thief 1 and thief 2 (unverified)
Guilty Gear XX PC (Rumor)
System Shock 2 (Rumor)
MechWarrior 3 (rumor)

Table Fog Unverified partial list
Centipede
Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear
Test Drive 5 (patch 1.1)
Thief II: The Metal Age
Shadows of the Empire

Reply 25 of 52, by mothergoose729

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Warlord wrote:
8 bit paletted texture It's difficult to know, FFVII is the most famous, Metal Gear Solid 1 (Unverified) Thief 1 and thief 2 […]
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8 bit paletted texture It's difficult to know,
FFVII is the most famous,
Metal Gear Solid 1 (Unverified)
Thief 1 and thief 2 (unverified)
Guilty Gear XX PC (Rumor)
System Shock 2 (Rumor)
MechWarrior 3 (rumor)

Table Fog Unverified partial list
Centipede
Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear
Test Drive 5 (patch 1.1)
Thief II: The Metal Age
Shadows of the Empire

There really needs to be a list for this.

Thief 1 uses an 8 bit textures for the sky and that is about it.

I think in the latest patch 8 bit textures were removed from FF7?

Carmeggedon II also uses table fog.

Another advantage of the FX series is that they are ideal for nglide. The FX 1300 should have the raw horsepower to run much faster than real voodoo cards. I don't think nglide simulated 8 bit textures in shaders, unlike dgvoodoo 2.

Reply 26 of 52, by Warlord

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duga3 wrote:

Not sure if most people here are aware but NVIDIA website driver search tool lists exactly z e r o drivers for FX1300 for Win98.

Yes but we know it uses NV38 and the only other card that used NV38 is a 5950 which there are many many references in the drivers for. So we can assume that any driver that is optimized for the 5950 will be fine for the fx1300 since it uses the same GPU. So Simply replacing 5950 in the driver INF with the hardware IDs of the FX1300 to trick the installer to install the card as if its a FX5950. Or clone the 5950 strings and modify them so that it reads as a fx1300 should work 100% of the time if its done properly.

Reply 27 of 52, by SPBHM

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Warlord wrote:
duga3 wrote:

Not sure if most people here are aware but NVIDIA website driver search tool lists exactly z e r o drivers for FX1300 for Win98.

Yes but we know it uses NV38 and the only other card that used NV38 is a 5950 which there are many many references in the drivers for. So we can assume that any driver that is optimized for the 5950 will be fine for the fx1300 since it uses the same GPU. So Simply replacing 5950 in the driver INF with the hardware IDs of the FX1300 to trick the installer to install the card as if its a FX5950. Or clone the 5950 strings and modify them so that it reads as a fx1300 should work 100% of the time if its done properly.

AFAIK NV38 and NV35 are 100% the same, the only difference being voltage (much higher on NV38) and clock

I have used 5950 bios on the 5900se and it worked perfectly fine and clocked higher due to the voltage, I would think whatever driver works with NV35 should be easy to make work with NV38

Reply 28 of 52, by duga3

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5900(NV35) is listed in the INF file of crowd favorite 45.23 - that would be nice to get it working. That and 82.69 which would not be as nice because one could simply use more powerful cards. I will look into those soon then.

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)

Reply 29 of 52, by j^aws

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SPBHM wrote:

AFAIK NV38 and NV35 are 100% the same, the only difference being voltage (much higher on NV38) and clock

I'm sure the difference isn't much, but besides voltage differences, I recall reading a thread on some tech forum mentioning some transistors were removed from the chip to help NV38 clock higher and compete with the Radeon 9700/ 9800 series. These transistors were apparently responsible for video playback image quality. I can't seem to find this thread anymore.

Reply 30 of 52, by Warlord

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duga3 wrote:

5900(NV35) is listed in the INF file of crowd favorite 45.23 - that would be nice to get it working. That and 82.69 which would not be as nice because one could simply use more powerful cards. I will look into those soon then.

I mean yes and no. There are plenty of more powerful cards but not for 10 dollars or whatever, and not PCI-Express cards with FX series or lower. ATI cards have the same problems with compatibility as later Nvidia cards. So if you have to use pic-express than your options are limited. I cannot even find PCX 5950 or 5900 geforce cards they do not exist or all got hoarded.

Reply 31 of 52, by cyclone3d

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Warlord wrote:
duga3 wrote:

5900(NV35) is listed in the INF file of crowd favorite 45.23 - that would be nice to get it working. That and 82.69 which would not be as nice because one could simply use more powerful cards. I will look into those soon then.

I mean yes and no. There are plenty of more powerful cards but not for 10 dollars or whatever, and not PCI-Express cards with FX series or lower. ATI cards have the same problems with compatibility as later Nvidia cards. So if you have to use pic-express than your options are limited. I cannot even find PCX 5950 or 5900 geforce cards they do not exist or all got hoarded.

Yeah, I have't seen and PCX 5900 or 5950 cards either. The Quadro FX 3000 cards are a lot more available though so it really isn't that much of a problem.

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Reply 32 of 52, by duga3

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Posted some quick FX1300 82.69 tests in my build log here: Re: Win98/XP multi-boot on "modern" P55 chipset (BUILD LOG) If you would like to reply you can still do it here, just wanted the results in my own thread for posterity and did not want to double post it elsewhere.

Its always good to note price and availability as it is an important aspect as well and not everyone has a stash of (rare) cards or money to burn. I paid roughly similar price for my FX1300 and 7950GT by the way (which is what I meant for example when I said more powerful card).

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)

Reply 33 of 52, by j^aws

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Got curious and looked to dig up my PCX 5950, but it'll have to wait another day as I've buried a pile of gear in random boxes and didn't bother labelling anything. However, to my surprise, I found this forgotten single slot, passively cooled Quantum 3D 7900 GTX - I believe these are faster than 7950 GT, and should work with Win98:

20190910_234912_compress6.jpg
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Quantum 3D 7900GTX
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Fair use/fair dealing exception

Copper cooled orange and green is rather striking.

Reply 34 of 52, by Warlord

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Small update, was able to get to testing, working on trying to reproduce the same problems duga3 reported.

I'm using driver 71.84 and I added these lines to the Nvagp.inf
[Mfg]
%NVIDIA&DEV_00FE.DeviceDesc% = NV30, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_00FE
[strings]
NVIDIA&DEV_00FE.DeviceDesc="Quadro PCX FX 1300"

Quadro FX 1300
SIN DEMO ok could not reproduce 1-5 FPS, great FPS with max details on.
AOE2 demo, ok I could not reproduce the crash game tested fine.
MGS, fail, I couldn't get it to work either, I suspect very few cards can play this seems like a title for voodoo3 or something even though its not glide.
call of duty demo ok perfectly working, I dont have the full game but i cannot reproduce duga3 experience.
Lego Racers, OK tested Ok zero issues with this game.

While this isn't all of the games, I do plan on testing more of the games duga reports to not work,

Tested on
915gm chipset
Pentium M
Diamond monster mx300

will update post as I test more games, Any suggestions pls report here and I'll test them if I can get the game.

Reply 35 of 52, by duga3

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j^aws wrote:

Got curious and looked to dig up my PCX 5950, but it'll have to wait another day as I've buried a pile of gear in random boxes and didn't bother labelling anything. However, to my surprise, I found this forgotten single slot, passively cooled Quantum 3D 7900 GTX - I believe these are faster than 7950 GT, and should work with Win98:
Copper cooled orange and green is rather striking.

That Quantum3D is a very nice card, have not seen it before.

Warlord wrote:

Small update, was able to get to testing, working on trying to reproduce the same problems duga3 reported....

Thanks for testing similar games, those would be interesting to know as well:

- 3DMark 2001 SE
- https://archive.org/details/CommandosBehindEnemyLinesDemo
- https://archive.org/details/PCGamerIssue78January2000Disc2 (the Omikron demo is on it)

One more thing, please try to be more descriptive with results than just "fail" for example. Like "frozen black screen" for example would be better, or "got an error saying ...", etc.

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)

Reply 36 of 52, by The Serpent Rider

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MGS, fail, I couldn't get it to work either

Never had problems with it even with more modern hardware. Although I've tried it only on XP.

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Reply 37 of 52, by Warlord

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there is a patch to get it to run on any video card on, but the purpose was to see if the vanilla game would launch on win 98 under certain cards unpatched. anyways my fx1300 died so i can't test, it started huming and then shutting itself off.

Reply 38 of 52, by WR3ND

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HanJammer wrote:

No such thing as retro PCI-E.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the criteria around here is. I guess maybe if it's no longer officially supported by vendors or something.

Soon to be retro: My i7-3930K Windows 7 machine with SLIed Titan Black cards. 🤣 I think it's funny because it has a ring of truth to it.

Reply 39 of 52, by duga3

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Warlord wrote:

there is a patch to get it to run on any video card on, but the purpose was to see if the vanilla game would launch on win 98 under certain cards unpatched. anyways my fx1300 died so i can't test, it started huming and then shutting itself off.

R.I.P. 😢

I am having trouble testing myself because my Win98 installation is a bit broken now after so many driver changes and I forgot to make a backup.. I think I will start from a completely clean backup (which I do have), install all games without any drivers, and then back that up for any future testing of anything.

If you have any ideas/tricks on how to perhaps force 45.23 down its throat let me know. I think I tried it some time back and it just locked up when Windows loaded.

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)