Shagittarius wrote:

AlessandroB wrote:

Shagittarius wrote:

Personally I find a slow 286, 8Mhz and a Pentium 90 cover everything I want to play. I can tweak the P90 to slow it down if needed and the 286 covers everything else, with the exception of things designed to run on an 8086 which is not of my interest. So where everyone else seems to like 386 and 486 machines I dont understand the desire for those machines since the P90 will run all the early psuedo 3d games much better as well as most of the 2d games as well (and can be slowed down by disabling cache for speed sensetive games).

I lived through these times and it wasn't until we hit the Pentium that I really saw a machine capable of running modern software to the degree required. I have no interest in maintaining or building a 386 or 486 even though I owned those at the time.

the point is just this, I created this post to judge if objectively the 286 was useless, not if it was personally useful for past experiences or particular preferences.

Yes, that was my point, in my opinion the 386 and 486 are useless, the 286 has merit.

Yes and i totally respect your opinion. Clearly if I had time I would like to discover the secrets of computers 286, but unfortunately my generation (40 years) especially here in Italy does not have much time for hobbies so I have to concentrate on systems with "high degree of compatibility" such as pentium3. I specified from the beginning that my personal story started with DX2 and that, in my opinion, it was the real turning point where the PC started to excel as an IT environment on the other platforms, showing DX2 in forward the most beautiful things.

If your only goal is to play games they are all useless, just use Dosbox, its by far the most compatible. Even by chosing to use real hardware the goal of your target is flawed.

HanJammer wrote:

Your board is 2 OSC board 32MHz is for CPU 24MHz is for NPU 14,318MHz is just a reference resonator for the clock generator (use […]
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AlessandroB wrote:

Tiido wrote:

Just changing the CPU won't do anything, clock sources must also be changed and it is unlikely the board will run stably past 20MHz. You will also need faster memories too.

My board have 3 different oscillator, 24 32 and 14,3 Mhz. Can the 32Mhz be for cpu only? 32/2=16Mhz. if i change that with a 50Mhz version i control the harris without changing other operative frequency. Or not??

Your board is 2 OSC board
32MHz is for CPU
24MHz is for NPU
14,318MHz is just a reference resonator for the clock generator (used by the chipset for memory timings and such) - I guess this particular value was choosen because it's one of the NTSC standard frequencies and frequencies like 33MHz, 48MHz, 100MHz can be easly derived from it (but I may be wrong here).

You need 3 OSC board (CPU, NPU and AT Bus) otherwise you may go into trouble. AT Bus clock in your board is derived from the CPU OSC (32/4=8MHz) and if you rise AT bus speed to 12,5MHz you may (and likely will) go into any sort of trouble from crashes to even board not POSTing.
Some 286 motherboards have provisions for installing third oscillator (it's just not planted on them and it usually requires couple of jumpers as well for it to work) - attachment or this one: download/file.php?id=65076&mode=view.

This is my computer and his mainboard

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-3PNm … pvKqbz1zh9FSsno

AlessandroB wrote:

This is my computer and his mainboard

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-3PNm … pvKqbz1zh9FSsno

I must admit, Olivetti's designs were quite unique back in the day.
I actually recently got hold of an M4 Modulo (486DX2-66 CPU) with a similar design.

Shagittarius wrote:

If your only goal is to play games they are all useless, just use Dosbox, its by far the most compatible. Even by chosing to use real hardware the goal of your target is flawed.

My primary intent is absolutely not to play, certainly not the first. I like to disassemble computers, restore them, upgrade them, study how they were engineered, but having not so much space and not so much time I can only concentrate on less platforms. Look how wonderful this 286 is, really beautiful.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-3PNm … pvKqbz1zh9FSsno

AlessandroB wrote:

jesolo wrote:

AlessandroB wrote:

the point is just this, I created this post to judge if objectively the 286 was useless, not if it was personally useful for past experiences or particular preferences.

Short answer - it purely depends on what your needs are and what software/games you wish to run on it.

You can ask the same question to someone else about a 386 or 486. If their target games are first person shooters from the mid 90's (like Quake, Heretic, Rise of the Triad & Duke Nukem 3D, then those type of machines are pretty "useless" from that point of view and for that particular person's needs.

not teally in my opinion. What you said is correct only if you give a target. In your case, 3D games are the target, but what if you don't have a target? Let me explain: IF the 386 does 95% of the things the 286 does, but more can do other things, it means that the 286 is useless as a processor (386) is more efficient. There is only one system that can do more things in exactly the same way. A pentiumMMX is not useless because compared to a PentiumII / III, it can do many things done by them but also things that I cannot do pentiumII / III because it can work more slowly. From what I have read, what the 386 cannot do but which can do the 286 are very specific things, but which are of interest to a close circle of enthusiasts. This is what I understood.

I think you kind of have answered your own question.
Generally, for any vintage computer, I think there are mainly three reasons why you would want to keep it.

• You are a collector of vintage computers. It could be just in general or a specific brand (like, in your case, an Olivetti).
• Nostalgia, and you have one because you used to have one in your youth
• You want to play games on that particular hardware and/or just have fun with it

If it doesn't meet the above criteria, then you probably have no need for the 286.
To give another example. I actually own an Olivetti M19, M21 & Olivetti M24 (all of which are XT based PC's) and I just love the design of the M24. Will I ever play games on it? Probably not but, I still feel it's a very cool system to have.
As a matter of fact, I'm still on the lookout for a colour monitor for my M24 and the 83-key keyboard that came with some models 🤣 .

However, I do also agree. A fast 386 or mid range 486 (like a DX2-66) will run most DOS games quite well (and even better) compared to a 286. A few exceptions would be the very early games that were designed to run on a 4.77 MHz XT and the very late DOS era games that are more suited for a Pentium based system.

You also have some DOS games that are quite speed sensitive and actually run too fast on even a 486. Examples are Wing Commander 1 & Test Drive 3 (however, most 486 PC's have a turbo function to slow down the system to 386DX-33 speeds).

jesolo wrote:

AlessandroB wrote:

This is my computer and his mainboard

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-3PNm … pvKqbz1zh9FSsno

I must admit, Olivetti's designs were quite unique back in the day.
I actually recently got hold of an M4 Modulo (486DX2-66 CPU) with a similar design.

woooww you gave me a fantastic suggestion, I went to see on google and your M4 is not only similar to mine, but it is identical, it seems that the motherboard can be substituted perfectly for mine of the 286, so I could keep this beautiful computer but in the same time use it too. Then if I wanted, it would be enough to reassemble the mainboard of the 286 and return to the original. Then look at my photos and tell me if yours is the same? Can you post some photos of yours?

AlessandroB wrote:

not teally in my opinion. What you said is correct only if you give a target. In your case, 3D games are the target, but what if you don't have a target? Let me explain: IF the 386 does 95% of the things the 286 does, but more can do other things, it means that the 286 is useless as a processor (386) is more efficient. There is only one system that can do more things in exactly the same way. A pentiumMMX is not useless because compared to a PentiumII / III, it can do many things done by them but also things that I cannot do pentiumII / III because it can work more slowly. From what I have read, what the 386 cannot do but which can do the 286 are very specific things, but which are of interest to a close circle of enthusiasts. This is what I understood.

It's more about what 286 CAN'T do and not about what it CAN do.

You can get to the top of the mountain using a helicopter but getting there on a bike will get you real sense of achievement.

I grew up (well, after age 18) on punched cards and a mainframe, both IBM and Univac. I have many vintage PCs, but my favs are the early IBMs. I ended up with 4 ATs, so I have been restoring/upgraded them. I have sold one, and I'm keeping one. The other 2 are real close to being ready for sale. I pulled them out to do macro assembler coding, but found them a bit too slow, so I use a PS/2 Model 53 (486) and MASM 6.11. I'm retired, and I have the time to play.

Anyone have a Sound Blaster Pro 2 for sale ?!?!?!?

People have them for sale, but you won't like the price.

Yeah, I know. I have one that works well in the AT, but the other SBs I have are 16-bit and newer. So I have one for my personal machine and a SCSI cd-rom so I'm good 😎

I know I'm late to the party here, and sorry if I tried to buy some hardware, but I can't find the RULES for this Board. I saw the Not A Marketplace post, but I would think this is a great crowd to deal with.

Lots of members participate on amibay and vcf where trading is allowed. I think there's some activity on Facebook as well.

Shagittarius wrote:

If your only goal is to play games they are all useless, just use Dosbox, its by far the most compatible. Even by chosing to use real hardware the goal of your target is flawed.

I wouldn't say "most compatible" as I've come across games that DOSBox won't run properly. As an example, I've never managed to get it running the original "Jumpman" properly, which is one of my favourite games of that era - it has speed issues & CGA composite is not functional either. There may be ways to fix it, but I've not come across any solutions.

You can't use it to play some copy protected games also.

PTherapist wrote:

Shagittarius wrote:

If your only goal is to play games they are all useless, just use Dosbox, its by far the most compatible. Even by chosing to use real hardware the goal of your target is flawed.

I wouldn't say "most compatible" as I've come across games that DOSBox won't run properly. As an example, I've never managed to get it running the original "Jumpman" properly, which is one of my favourite games of that era - it has speed issues & CGA composite is not functional either. There may be ways to fix it, but I've not come across any solutions.

I've run across games that wont run on one or the other or both my 286 and pentium 90, but I've yet to see one of those fail in DosBox. Seriously if you just want to play the games DosBox is the answer. I've no doubt that DosBox has some issues with specific games or copy protection but unless you have a whole box of hardware to swap around you're far more likely to run into problems on real hardware.

As a general rule I don't trade with other collectors. You'll pay way more than something is worth to someone who generally out of their minds. 🤣

Shagittarius wrote:

I've run across games that wont run on one or the other or both my 286 and pentium 90, but I've yet to see one of those fail in DosBox. Seriously if you just want to play the games DosBox is the answer. I've no doubt that DosBox has some issues with specific games or copy protection but unless you have a whole box of hardware to swap around you're far more likely to run into problems on real hardware.

^ this or (even better) PCem/x86-box.

Warlord wrote:

As a general rule I don't trade with other collectors. You'll pay way more than something is worth to someone who generally out of their minds. 🤣

It's just part of the story. The other part is that you are buying stuff which has been thoroughly tested (testing takes time you know) and is in good condition (unless stated otherwise). If someone is in a need of money you can make a good deal too offering lower price.

From what I have read, what the 386 cannot do but which can do the 286 are very specific things, but which are of interest to a close circle of enthusiasts.

Pretty much that. Personally, I chose not to mess with 286 or something lower. Since you can emulate 286 experience on 386DX just by switching off the cache and replacing the oscillator. Heck, you can emulate "XTish" experience to some degree.

I've always been fascinated by the 386dx40, maybe I'll find him swapping with this 286 ...