VOGONS


Reply 20 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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As I recall I'm the one that taught you the finer points of capacitors 10-15 years ago over at BCN.
Are you still using that same old soldering iron?

mockingbird wrote:
PCBONEZ wrote:

The small 5mm or less and 220uF or less wet-lytics caps do fail too but they have different jobs and see a lot less stress so they don't fail very often.
(Notable exceptions are boards using OST (brand) and early Intel made P4 boards that used 85°C Nichicons for the small caps. Both of those fail often and can fail en masse.)

Asus liked to use 4mm G-Luxon caps in their audio circuits on some old boards. These should be replaced. They do fail and audio stops working.

Yup. There are 100's of special cases. I don't even try to list all of them anymore.

mockingbird wrote:
PCBONEZ wrote:

The brand doesn't matter much. I've heard of no brand that has issues with their polymers.**

Not all polymer caps are alike. The quality of the polymer varies widely from brand to brand... I *think* Taiwanese polymers are ok (Apaq, Capxon, Lelon) but I wouldn't completely trust anything other than Japanese polymers. Chinese polymers should be avoided at all cost. A _good_ polymer cap has a moist, intact polymer layer inside, even after many years. A poor quality polymer cap will be crusty after a short time.

I don't know about that. Seems to me that functional polymer should be moist and solid polymer dry.
What I do know is I haven't seen any mass failures of any brand....
... Yet. Some brands are new to poly so time will tell.

mockingbird wrote:
PCBONEZ wrote:

[** Not counting early Fujitsu Functional Polymers (now Nichicon "FP Caps"). Those are not solid, but rather a hybrid between wet-lytic and solid polymer. The problems were only with some of the very early black-yellow versions made before about 2001. The later ones (even the later Black/Yellow) are fine.]

I know that this is the consensus, but it is inaccurate. Even the later yellow/black ones do not age well. They should be replaced on sight, regardless of their manufacturing date.

I bought and used some when KC8 was selling. I haven't had a single problem with them or on any board that's DDR or newer.
.
It's a shame you guys are letting hardwareinsights die.
It had the makings of a good site but I looked in a few days ago and I saw almost no activity over there in the last year.
With the retro thing spinning up you guys should be getting hot on old type PSU reviews and repair topics.
I was going to email Behemot but he didn't answer the last time I wrote him and that was to buy some of those custom made caps.
I do it when I have to but I don't even like working PSUs. (My thing is mobos.)
If it looked like there was any life over there I'd be sending people with PSU problems over.
.

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Reply 21 of 69, by RoyBatty

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PCBONEZ wrote on 2019-12-26, 23:11:
Now I'm confused. You said earlier they are Nichicon and gave no series but now you're saying you don't know what they are. Ther […]
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Now I'm confused.
You said earlier they are Nichicon and gave no series but now you're saying you don't know what they are.
There are alternate ways to idendify most crap brands.
If you post some photos of them then I (or someone) may have seen them before.
For example Tayeh and GSC both made caps with no series markings. There could be others.
GSC used the can color as the series indicator when they weren't marking the caps.
Tayeh are probably a rebranded OEM version of Teapo but there has never been a published datasheet or even a website.
Tayeh used Teapo colors (and sometimes vents) and checking with an ESR meter the specs match certain Teapo so that's a way to work around those.

If all else fails you go by what is usually found in that "spot" on similar boards that do have caps with the proper markings.
You haven't given where they are on the board so I can't go that route either without more information.
.

I didn't take offense, was just letting you know my skill level (sorry I'm functionally autistic and come off as rude sometimes).

They are Nichicon's, but that doesn't tell me the series and I can't see anything on the markings telling me what they are. It's not like stacked film caps where is says if they are film or metalized etc.

They are either located around the VRMs and CPU or near the slots, AGP or PCI.

Reply 22 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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That doesn't make any sense. 'Real' Nichicons always have a series mark.
You may have some kind of counterfeit someone put in later on with or without knowing so.
... Or perhaps they have a series mark but you aren't recognizing the mark as a series indicator.

The areas you are describing are where the highest ripple and lowest ESR caps are needed.
Typical Nichicon series to see there are HN, HM, and HD.
Taking HM as an example it would be printed as HM(M).
Don't let the (M) confuse you. That is just the mark for the +/-20% tolerance.
Nichicon datasheets often put a U in front so HM might show up as UHM on paper or in a search.
.
Later versions of HN used gold lettering on a black can.

Some early HD came without sleeves and used markings on the end like modern solid polymers.
There -may- have been a very few sleeveless HD without an HD on them but most were marked.
The sleeveless HD had a black polarity mark and printing.
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GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
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Reply 23 of 69, by RoyBatty

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H0113 and H0118 are the only other numbers on them. It is clearly not HD. This is printed repeatedly along the cap body under the temperature rating. The former is the 1000uf and the latter is the 1500uf caps. The caps have never been replaced, I've owned the board since it was new. There are no other meaningful markings other than the capacitance, brand name, operating temperature. I don't even see a tolerance marking on them. I would take pictures but my phone refuses to focus on them. They are black plastic wrapped with light gray markings, like most other nichicon caps I've seen.

Reply 24 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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Date codes. 2001 weeks 13 and 18. IIRC the H is the code for the assembly plant.
Only some HD were sleeveless. Most had sleeves.

Factory goofs are not unheard of.
Nichicon did a major one beginning in 2001 where a revised procedure resulted in HN and HM caps being overfilled with electrolyte. That lasted into 2004.
Then in 2004 (IIRC) they contaminated one of their electrolyte tanks with some kind of cleaner and it didn't get caught until after a few production runs.

Legit Nichicons have an X shaped vent but a lot of other companies use that one too.

What colors are the sleeves and printing?
Normally Nichicon states the colors in their datasheets, at least the older ones.
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GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
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Reply 25 of 69, by gdjacobs

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PCBONEZ wrote on 2019-12-29, 09:26:

Legit Nichicons have an X shaped vent but a lot of other companies use that one too.

X shaped or occasionally ventless.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 26 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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Don't remember ever seeing a ventless in 8mm and up wet-lytic radials from Nichicon, or any other major brand for that matter.
Some smaller ones (or axial) that appear ventless actually have straight vent slits in the side under the sleeves but I've never looked into how common that is.

If a cap's total volume is small enough (or they are axial) there is less concern that the can will eject (shoot off) if gasses form inside.
I had an 8mm radial explode when the vent failed to work (bad VRM was putting 12v on 4v caps) and the can actually bounced off the ceiling.

The shape of the vent is just one way (an easy to see one) to ID counterfeit caps.
Counterfeiters often use the wrong vent shape for the brand.
Other ways include the colors, font, spelling, pattern of the polarity stripe, sleeves over sleeves, and the shape of the bung.
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GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 28 of 69, by mockingbird

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PCBONEZ wrote on 2019-12-27, 10:07:

As I recall I'm the one that taught you the finer points of capacitors 10-15 years ago over at BCN.
Are you still using that same old soldering iron?

Hey old man, it is good to see you sir. Yes, I bow to you in reverence. And I don't say that facetiously.

Not quite the same one, but the same old style of irons. I say plural because I use one seperate one for each voltage, a 15W, 40W and 60W. But they're all the old style of irons and they all have conical tips. I also have a very very old turquoise-colored 15w Weller with a chisel tip that I use for certain jobs.

Yup. There are 100's of special cases. I don't even try to list all of them anymore.

Speaking of which I still remember your tips about buying small 4mm caps... I used to look at ripple spec as the main factor in choosing them... I now give preference to ESR... For example, a 100V 10uF cap might have a higher voltage rating than a 50V 10uF cap, but it often also comes with a higher ESR. It seems like you might be getting more for your money to go for the 100V part, but in fact, the 50V one is usually a better choice... But that's splitting hairs.

I don't know about that. Seems to me that functional polymer should be moist and solid polymer dry.
What I do know is I haven't seen any mass failures of any brand....
... Yet. Some brands are new to poly so time will tell.

I don't remember exactly what I saw when I opened them up, but only that I didn't like what I saw at the time. I look for discoloration. Old, degraded (but perhaps only aqueous or quaternary ammonia electrolyte) caps will usually have dark brown patches near the bottom of the insulator. A good example is if you open up old Panasonic FJ. They will also have crystallization. With regard to the old yellow Fuhitsu caps, they may test ok subjectively, but objectively, you will see degradation inside.

I bought and used some when KC8 was selling. I haven't had a single problem with them or on any board that's DDR or newer.

I bought some really dodgy Chinese polymers years ago. The polymer layer was atrocious. Crusty and white and flaking off. I used some of them on an old graphics card I have sitting in an old server on a site, and I haven't had a problem... Subjectively, they may work. Objectively, they will show degradation if you gut them and touch/smell or otherwise examine them.

It's a shame you guys are letting hardwareinsights die. It had the makings of a good site but I looked in a few days ago and I s […]
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It's a shame you guys are letting hardwareinsights die.
It had the makings of a good site but I looked in a few days ago and I saw almost no activity over there in the last year.
With the retro thing spinning up you guys should be getting hot on old type PSU reviews and repair topics.
I was going to email Behemot but he didn't answer the last time I wrote him and that was to buy some of those custom made caps.
I do it when I have to but I don't even like working PSUs. (My thing is mobos.)
If it looked like there was any life over there I'd be sending people with PSU problems over.

Yea sorry about that. Behemot did the overwhelming majority of the work there. I sort of had a falling out with him (but I'm still an editor there and I had considered posting some whimsical but nonetheless pertinent article or review int he past) and I haven't had any dealings with him in the last couple of years. You want me to contact him for you?

Hey do you want some 6.3V 3300uF Nichicon HZ? I purchased some NOS a while ago and have them sitting here. PM me please.

7ivtic.png

Reply 29 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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mockingbird wrote on 2019-12-30, 00:57:

Not quite the same one, but the same old style of irons. I say plural because I use one seperate one for each voltage, a 15W, 40W and 60W. But they're all the old style of irons and they all have conical tips. I also have a very very old turquoise-colored 15w Weller with a chisel tip that I use for certain jobs.

I do much the same thing but I'm still hooked on the Hakko stations which I run simultaneously with different tips and heat settings.
More or less one for 'caps off' and another for 'caps on'.
Some years ago (dunno if I was still at BCN) I added a generic vacuum type desoldering iron to the tool-kit and it sees a lot use.

mockingbird wrote on 2019-12-30, 00:57:

Speaking of which I still remember your tips about buying small 4mm caps... I used to look at ripple spec as the main factor in choosing them... I now give preference to ESR... For example, a 100V 10uF cap might have a higher voltage rating than a 50V 10uF cap, but it often also comes with a higher ESR. It seems like you might be getting more for your money to go for the 100V part, but in fact, the 50V one is usually a better choice... But that's splitting hairs.

I agree. 50v is a sweet spot for the small caps.
Usually I just buy the small caps all in 50v to take advantage of quantity discounts since select ones pretty much work for everything.
I also need fewer bins of caps that way.

I think I was misunderstood on the Chinese poly.
Japanese are still preferred but Chinese poly aren't anywhere near as risky as Chinese wet-lytics.
I haven't had any problems finding Jap poly in sizes for mobos but I sometimes have for screens and TVs.

mockingbird wrote on 2019-12-30, 00:57:

Hey do you want some 6.3V 3300uF Nichicon HZ? I purchased some NOS a while ago and have them sitting here. PM me please.

Thanks for the offer but I still have a few 1000 6.3V 3300uF Rubycon MBZ in factory boxes.
When I need something with better than MBZ specs I just do a poly-mod now.

mockingbird wrote on 2019-12-30, 00:57:

Yea sorry about that. Behemot did the overwhelming majority of the work there. I sort of had a falling out with him (but I'm still an editor there and I had considered posting some whimsical but nonetheless pertinent article or review int he past) and I haven't had any dealings with him in the last couple of years. You want me to contact him for you?

When I tried to contact him I was wanting some of those custom 16v for PSUs.
I found his site but it was just a stock-list and I couldn't figure out how to place an order.
When he didn't get back to me I found some alternates, though not quite as perfect.

mockingbird wrote on 2019-12-30, 00:57:

Contact Behemot.

Maybe just drop a hint that he's missing an opportunity by ignoring the retro community's needs.
Old PSUs are kind of his/their 'thing' over there and they could easily become the GO-TO place for that.

It's probably not known that I inspired hardwareinsights.
As you may recall the creator was like 14 or 15 yo at the time and had a little incident where TC called the cops in his town.
After that I counseled him through PM for a while and suggested he put all his surplus energy into learning HTML and launching a website covering something he was interested in.
That's how hardwareinsights came about.
I was surprised he actually did it and surprised how well he did it. I was thoroughly impressed.
It saddens me to see it dying by way of neglect. If Behemot didn't have time for it he shouldn't have taken it over.
.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 31 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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My eyesight sucks too.
That's one of the reasons I quit doing motherboard repair full time.
I have a whole collection of different 'zoom' reading glasses and sometimes I wear 2 at a time.
.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 32 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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Nichicon HN are excluded because they are Gold/Black.

I didn't find and Grey/Black Nichicon but they made several series in White/Black and sometimes their White isn't quite White.
The most likely suspects on a P3 are HM, HD and HE.
HV fits in that range but that series was introduced after P3.

Some boards went with many lower grade caps while others went with fewer higher grade caps so any of those could have been used. That's especially true in P3 boards.
Of those HM is the high grade and HE the low. HD is in the middle.

With today's availability HM will be hard to find replacements for.
The only new production I'm aware of is Suncon WG series.
The other two not so much. Still pretty easy.

I am hunting photos to see if I can narrow it down further.

If all else fails you can go with polymers so long as you don't take ESR ridiculously low.
It's rare but too low an ESR can cause a condition sometimes called "Signing MOSFETS" which probably won't hurt anything but it's annoying like a bad fan.
If you target an ESR close to HN or HM it will be fine.
.

GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.

Reply 34 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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That's because you haven't given me enough to go on.
Trolling the web looking for caps photos of any specific boards is extremely time consuming and not always productive.

- If you look back, I said on the 26th....

PCBONEZ wrote on 2019-12-26, 07:56:

To look up correct replacements I/you/whoever needs to know exactly what the original ones are. The format is thus:
~ Make ~ Series ~ uF ~ Volts ~ Diameter ~ Length ~

With the series a mystery I need all the rest of it or I'm not going to get anywhere. (Even that might not work out.)
Frankly, if you can't see the board well enough to get the rest of the info off the board then you're in over your head trying to do a recap.

Since I can't definitely ID them with what you've given I have to recommend the highest probable grade which, I already said, means Suncon WG or poly if you want new production caps.

If they are a lesser grade there are more options but without more information I can't say with any certainty that they are a lesser grade. I have to default up to WG or poly.
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GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
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Reply 35 of 69, by RoyBatty

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Well I can take a picture, that's easy. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FWvO0OpuLe1 … 1q_satVPnpaRoU6

The 1500uf caps are HD(M) , it took me awhile with my loupe to read the damn things. The 1000uf ones are YXG (I think) it could by YXC ot YX6, I can't read them due to their orientation. It's always obscured behind something.

Reply 36 of 69, by gdjacobs

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RoyBatty wrote on 2020-01-01, 01:25:

Well I can take a picture, that's easy. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FWvO0OpuLe1 … 1q_satVPnpaRoU6

The 1500uf caps are HD(M) , it took me awhile with my loupe to read the damn things. The 1000uf ones are YXG (I think) it could by YXC ot YX6, I can't read them due to their orientation. It's always obscured behind something.

Those YXGs are higher ESR than the HDs, so probably a more mid-grade cap. Looking at the chart, perhaps Nichicon PW or Panny FC.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 38 of 69, by PCBONEZ

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That I can work with:
I saw Rubycon YXG in one of the photos I looked at earlier but I could see the Nichicon well enough.
Those grades should not be hard to find in wet-lytic or do you want to go with poly?

Nichicon HD 1500uF 6.3v 10x20mm ESR= 0.023 Ω Ripple= 1820 mA
http://www.paullinebarger.net/DS/Nichic ... series.pdf

Rubycon YXG 1000uF 6.3v 8x16mm ESR= 0.087 Ω Ripple= 840 mA
http://www.paullinebarger.net/DS/Rubyco ... series.pdf

Now I know what to look for, but I need to know where to look for them unless you are doing that part yourself.
If not then are you in North America or across one of the ponds?
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GRUMPY OLD FART - On Hiatus, sort'a
Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.