VOGONS


First post, by Smack2k

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The title says it all.....is that possible?

Looking to cut my retro machines down to 1 DOS 486 / 1 Windows 98 Machine / 1 Windows XP Machine. 98 seems to be the issue with getting one machine that can play older and newer 98 games. Is there a decent solution for 1 98 rig? Could the later, faster 98 games be played on XP?

Reply 1 of 18, by pewpewpew

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I love 98SE for the nostalgia, but not so much as a platform. I usually wonder if there's /anything/ it does that isn't done better by XP. Seems every game issue anyone had eventually got a fix.

Are you basically asking about dx7 and dx9 games? If that's the split you want to support, why just not dual-boot a 98box? Then it's more about what video cards you want to use. Let's say something like: use the otherwise unpopular FX5200 for dx7. It sucks for dx9, but then really all of that stuff will work so much nicer on XP. So we're back to needing just one 98.

Perhaps the only 'problem' with 98 is it can span a lot of years, so we try to do that. But it's just not the best solution for that. It seems better applied as an niche-use box.

Reply 2 of 18, by j^aws

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Smack2k wrote on 2019-12-29, 13:24:

The title says it all.....is that possible?

Looking to cut my retro machines down to 1 DOS 486 / 1 Windows 98 Machine / 1 Windows XP Machine. 98 seems to be the issue with getting one machine that can play older and newer 98 games. Is there a decent solution for 1 98 rig? Could the later, faster 98 games be played on XP?

Define 'all' games from the title?

Reply 4 of 18, by duga3

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Not really, some games are very picky and you also need to decide if you want to just play games or play games at their best (audio/video/FPS/frametimes). I am in the second group and having a hard time trying to squeeze as much as I can out of one PC. If I had the cash and space I would custom rack maybe 5-10 PCs with notable hardware and call it a day, because that would probably be so much easier in the end...

pewpewpew wrote on 2019-12-29, 14:28:

I love 98SE for the nostalgia, but not so much as a platform. I usually wonder if there's /anything/ it does that isn't done better by XP. Seems every game issue anyone had eventually got a fix.

Are you basically asking about dx7 and dx9 games? If that's the split you want to support, why just not dual-boot a 98box? Then it's more about what video cards you want to use. Let's say something like: use the otherwise unpopular FX5200 for dx7. It sucks for dx9, but then really all of that stuff will work so much nicer on XP. So we're back to needing just one 98.

Perhaps the only 'problem' with 98 is it can span a lot of years, so we try to do that. But it's just not the best solution for that. It seems better applied as an niche-use box.

Aureal A3D is not for XP for example.

No official 3dfx Glide drivers for XP either (but there are some community drivers).

Last edited by duga3 on 2020-01-01, 20:23. Edited 1 time in total.

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)

Reply 5 of 18, by pewpewpew

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duga3 wrote on 2019-12-29, 15:10:

Aureal A3D is not for XP for example.

No official 3dfx Glide drivers for XP either (but there are some community drivers).

Excellent point. How sound is handled changed completely with XP, and that may matter to the OP.

Where does nGlide support fall down? Can you maybe list a range or type of game to help the OP with that?

Reply 6 of 18, by The Serpent Rider

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System: Socket A motherboard and Athlon XP with unlocked multiplier.
Video: Some GeForce FX card or lower + Voodoo 2.
Sound: Aureal Vortex 2 + Sound Blaster Audigy.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 7 of 18, by j^aws

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pewpewpew wrote on 2019-12-29, 15:06:
j^aws wrote on 2019-12-29, 14:57:

Define 'all' games from the title?

Hm? "older and newer 98 games"

Win98 runs DOS games as well. So 'all' includes this, too?

Reply 8 of 18, by duga3

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pewpewpew wrote on 2019-12-29, 15:36:
duga3 wrote on 2019-12-29, 15:10:

Aureal A3D is not for XP for example.

No official 3dfx Glide drivers for XP either (but there are some community drivers).

Excellent point. How sound is handled changed completely with XP, and that may matter to the OP.

Where does nGlide support fall down? Can you maybe list a range or type of game to help the OP with that?

Not that deep in Glide yet (and not that intetested in nGlide) but I have a work-in-progress database which does include some A3D compatibility info. It is mostly sourced from online resources such as mobygames, pcgamingwiki, webarchive etc. Please note some of those entries are with question marks and/or obstacles (info on required patches, etc.) and I have barely tested it myself (not that I ever will). Once the database is a little more complete (EAX, Glide, DirectX, ...), hopefully in 2020, I will share it somewhere in a spreadsheet format 😉 So consider it as sort of a general overview and here is the mentioned sneak peek list of A3D games:

A3D1

American McGee's Alice
Aquanox
Battlezone
Battlezone: Gold Pack
Battlezone: The Red Odyssey
Blade of Darkness
Blood II: The Chosen - The Nightmare Levels
Blood II: The Chosen
BugRiders: The Race of Kings
Command & Conquer: Renegade
Crusaders of Might and Magic
Deadly Dozen
Deer Hunter 3: The Legend Continues
Deer Hunter 3: Gold Edition
Descent: Freespace - Silent Threat
Descent: Freespace - The Great War
Dirt Track Racing
Dirt Track Racing: Sprint Cars
Drakan: Order of the Flame
Driver
Dennou Taisen DroneZ
EverQuest
Expert Pool
F1 Championship Season 2000
Formula One 99
FreeSpace 2
G-Police
GP500
Grand Theft Auto 2
Gulf War: Operation Desert Hammer
Gunship!
Heavy Gear
Heavy Metal: F.A.K.K. 2
Hype: The Time Quest
Incoming: The Final Conflict
Incoming: Subversion
Interstate '76 Arsenal
Jagged Alliance 2
Jagged Alliance 2: Unfinished Business
Star Wars: Jedi Knight - Dark Forces II
Star Wars: Jedi Knight - Mysteries of the Sith
Star Trek: Klingon Academy
Lander
Legends of Might and Magic
Machines
Martian Gothic: Unification
MDK
MDK 2
Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor
Might and Magic VIII: Day of the Destroyer
Mortyr: 2093-1944
Motorhead
Myth II: Soulblighter
Myth III: The Wolf Age
Neverwinter Nights
Nocturne
Outlaws
Shipwreckers!
Plane Crazy
Powerslide
Quake 2
Quake 2 Mission Pack: Ground Zero
Quake 2 Mission Pack: The Reckoning
Rayman 2: The Great Escape
Re-Volt
Redline
Redline Racer
Requiem: Avenging Angel
Revenant
RoboRumble
Rocket Jockey
Sanity: Aiken's Artifact
Secret Service: In Harm's Way
Shipwreckers!
Shogo: Mobile Armor Division
SimCity 3000
SimCopter
SiN: Wages of Sin
SiN
Sinister Unleashed
Skout
Spec Ops II: Green Berets
Spec Ops: Platinum Collection
Spec Ops: Ranger Gold
Spec Ops: Ranger Team Bravo
Spec Ops: Rangers Lead The Way
Star Trek: The Next Generation - Klingon Honor Guard
Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace
Star Wars: Force Commander
Star Wars: X-Wing Alliance
StarFleet Academy
Starfleet Academy: Chekov's Lost Missions
StarSiege
StarSiege Tribes
System Shock 2
Terminus
Thief 2: The Metal Age
Thief Gold
Thief: The Dark Project
Thrust, Twist'n Turn
TigerShark
TNN Outdoors Pro Hunter
Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation
Trespasser: The Lost World - Jurassic Park
Unreal
Uprising 2: Lead and Destroy
Urban Chaos
Wargasm
Way Point Zeta
Wild Metal Country
X-Tension
X: Beyond The Frontier
Freedom Force
Daikatana
Heretic II

A3D2

American McGee's Alice
Anachronox
B-17 Flying Fortress: The Mighty 8th
Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal
Battlezone II: Combat Commander
Carmageddon TDR 2000
Carnivores 2
Carnivores: Ice Age
Clusterball
Codename: Outbreak
Command & Conquer: Renegade
Crime Cities
Dark Reign 2
Deep Fighter
Descent 3
Descent 3: Mercenary
Deus Ex
Die Hard Trilogy 2: Viva Las Vegas
Drakan: Order of the Flame
Dungeon Keeper 2
Expendable
Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel
Giants: Citizen Kabuto
Grand Theft Auto 2
Grand Theft Auto III
Gunman Chronicles
Half-Life
Half-Life: Blue Shift
Half-Life: Counter-Strike
Half-Life: Opposing Force
Half-Life: Day of Defeat
DXHexen
Interstate '82
Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Midnight GT: Primary Racer
Motorhead
NASCAR Racing 2002 Season
NASCAR Legends
NASCAR Racing 3
NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series Racing
Neverwinter Nights
No One Lives Forever
Off-Road: Redneck Racing
Panzer Elite
Prince of Persia 3D
Quake III: Team Arena
Quake III: Arena
Mobil 1 Rally Championship
Recoil
Rune
Rune: Halls of Valhalla
SiN: Wages of Sin
SiN
Slave Zero
Spec Ops: Platinum Collection
Star Trek: Deep Space 9 - The Fallen
Star Wars: Episode I - Racer
StarLancer
Swedish Touring Car Championship
Swedish Touring Car Championship 2
Test Drive: Le Mans
Test Drive: Rally
Wheel Of Time
Tonic Trouble
Tread Marks
Clive Barker's Undying
Unreal
Unreal Mission Pack 1: Return to Na Pali
Unreal Tournament
Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption
Warlords Battlecry
wHeretic
Wild Metal Country
Wizardry 8
Freedom Force
Daikatana
Heretic II

A3D3

JHexen
Messiah
Soldier of Fortune
Star Trek: Voyager - Elite Force
Star Trek: Voyager - Elite Force Expansion Pack
Star Trek: Elite Force II
Painkiller
Star Trek: Bridge Commander

Last edited by duga3 on 2019-12-29, 16:08. Edited 9 times in total.

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)

Reply 9 of 18, by brostenen

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You can get close, yet not really 100%.

Get something fast, like a 2ghz P4 or something. Make sure it is Win98 compatible and stable.
Get a GF2-GTS, GF3-ti200 or GF4-ti4200 and Voodoo2 (SLI might be what you want)
Get a SB-Live and YMF-724/Vortex2.

This machine is Win98-Only. And you might want to look out for incompatibility on the software side.
I have noticed that some games really require DX7, others DX6. And some will only run with version 9.
On the bright side, you are looking for Win98-only and not Win98/Dos hybrid right?

Don't eat stuff off a 15 year old never cleaned cpu cooler.
Those cakes make you sick....

My blog: http://to9xct.blogspot.dk

001100 010010 011110 100001 101101 110011

Jah ich will trynen... Die Leute wie macht scheisse in dem Grünen.

Reply 10 of 18, by clueless1

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I have a WinME system on a P3-933, GF3 Ti200/Voodoo2 SLI, and SB Audigy that can play pretty much every Win9x game. Anything DOS is out of the picture (I have a dedicated DOS PC). You need to be careful with driver versions to keep compatibility good across game generations. Also, if you care about period correctness, my system will give you fits--cpu from 2000, graphics cards from 1998 and 2001, sound card from 2002.

If you limit to 9x games from '95-'97ish, that work best with hardware that isn't XP-friendly (such as A3D and Voodoo graphics), then your 9x system can be on a much slower platform without sacrificing performance. Somewhere around 500Mhz, GF2/Voodoo2, and SB Live/A3D will work well with old DirectX games, glide, etc, and be more than fast enough to play those games at top speeds. Probably most of the newer 9x games would play fine on XP with a faster processor.

I went through a similar phase, but afterward, I found I spent almost no time on the Win98 and XP system after I had so much fun getting them all set up and games installed. The same games worked just as well with GOG installers on a modern system, so what's the point of another physical computer that I need to hop on to use that's outside of my normal computing area? These games also tend to look normal on an LCD display, whereas DOS games need a CRT to feel authentic. So I pruned out my 98SE system and left myself with one DOS PC (with a Pentium and CRT) and the WinME system mentioned above. I guess it helps that I'm a bit on the older side, so my "glory days" as a gamer were from before Windows 95 was released. I was that guy that tried to ignore Win3.x and hated moving to Windows 95 from DOS when the games I wanted stopped being available on pure DOS. The other tech made me do it begrudgingly, and I eventually got over it.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 12 of 18, by pewpewpew

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Off Topic: Is the PC version of Wipeout XL/ 2097 worth playing when there are so many excellent & easy ways to play the PS disk? I do love this game, and I think have all of those other ways. (Currently PS2 Component to 50" plasma. Yum.) Never occured to me to wonder about PC.

clueless1 - thanks for the detailed outline. My setup is morphing in that direction, so that's a lot of help.

[EDIT - I wrote 'Composite' for 'Component'. Never fails.]

Last edited by pewpewpew on 2019-12-29, 22:06. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 13 of 18, by j^aws

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pewpewpew wrote on 2019-12-29, 18:58:

Off Topic: Is the PC version of Wipeout XL/ 2097 worth playing when there are so many excellent & easy ways to play the PS disk? I do love this game, and I think have all of those other ways. (Currently PS2 Composite to 50" plasma. Yum.) Never occured to me to wonder about PC.

I suppose it's like other PS1 games vs PC ports - there are pros and cons to them. Last time I played Wipeout 2097 on PC was with a PowerVR card, and this looked better, but I was also experimenting on how fast I could make the game by abusing its speed sensitivity. IIRC, the licenced music is only with the PS1 (don't recall PC having the same tracks), but you can just choose arbitrary custom music through a mixer.

Reply 14 of 18, by brostenen

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j^aws wrote on 2019-12-29, 20:15:
pewpewpew wrote on 2019-12-29, 18:58:

Off Topic: Is the PC version of Wipeout XL/ 2097 worth playing when there are so many excellent & easy ways to play the PS disk? I do love this game, and I think have all of those other ways. (Currently PS2 Composite to 50" plasma. Yum.) Never occured to me to wonder about PC.

I suppose it's like other PS1 games vs PC ports - there are pros and cons to them. Last time I played Wipeout 2097 on PC was with a PowerVR card, and this looked better, but I was also experimenting on how fast I could make the game by abusing its speed sensitivity. IIRC, the licenced music is only with the PS1 (don't recall PC having the same tracks), but you can just choose arbitrary custom music through a mixer.

Depends on the person. I personally, think of Playstation exclusively, whenever I hear the name "Wipeout". I bet you can understand my confusion, when some tv show launched with that name. 😁 To make it even more exciting. Then there is even an Amiga port of one of the many Wipeout games.

EDIT:
Now that you tried the PowerVR version, then you really need to try playing it on a RaspberryPI RetroPIE setup, using high res pixels. I tell you. Ps1 games never looked better this way.

Don't eat stuff off a 15 year old never cleaned cpu cooler.
Those cakes make you sick....

My blog: http://to9xct.blogspot.dk

001100 010010 011110 100001 101101 110011

Jah ich will trynen... Die Leute wie macht scheisse in dem Grünen.

Reply 15 of 18, by agent_x007

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I think it's best to have two Win98 PCs (or "Extended DOS" + More compatible Win XP) :

1) "Extended DOS", example :
[Super] Socket 7 with ISA sound card(s), Voodoo(s), etc. Which can double as "late" DOS 6.22 PC.

2) "More compatible WinXP", example :
LGA 775/AM2(+) with DX8/DX9 capable GPU, Aureal/Audigy 2 sound (maybe with addition of OPL3LPT ?).
If you have MB for it, you could install second GPU (DX10/DX11 class) with X-Fi sound card, to use on late XP games.

This gives you max. range of flexibility, with option to use first or the second one - depending on FPS/stability of games you get.

Side note :
Another example of "compatible WinXP" option could be my "Madness project", which was LGA 1366 based.
It was on extreme side though : Six bootable OS'es from M$ (DOS 6.22 - Server 2016 R2) all on one platform (and no VMs) 😁

108080818886.png

Reply 16 of 18, by j^aws

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General coverage for DOS, WIN3. 1, WIN98, WINXP:

Machine 1: Socket 7 - depending on parts, covers 1981-1999
Machine 2: Socket LGA775 - depending on parts, covers 1990-2010
Machine 3: Socket LGA2011 - depending on parts, covers 1999-2019

Bonus coverage - WIN7, WIN10.

Reply 17 of 18, by chinny22

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Depends what games are in your catalogue.
I find a P3 1Ghz with GF4 Ti4600, Voodoo 2 SLI and Audigy 2 ZS can do all my non XP friendly gaming. D3D, Glide, EAX are all covered. I don't really play any A3d titles

Any games that start pushing any of the above hardware work fine in XP anyway. I actually built a second socket 478 system as a stupid fast Win98 system but end up booting into XP more often then not as its more stable the Win98 can ever be.

Reply 18 of 18, by Smack2k

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Thanks everyone for the replies....

After reading through these replies, looks like the idea of two Win 98 PCs will be the way to go for me, which is really what I have setup now.....

The machine I was looking to build would be able to play Windows 98 released games from start to finish. No DOS games, just WIndows for this one.