VOGONS


Reply 20 of 36, by TheAbandonwareGuy

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Great now everybody has me terrified that the one year of time my hardware spent in Dollar Tree gallon ziplocks stacked on top of each other in plastic totes has killed all my hardware. Though I was unemployed and moving with very little notice so its not like I could afford proper ESD bags at the time. That shits on order now though.

Now I'm scared. 0.o at least the good shit was in whatever left over ESD bags I had or boxes. So the GF256 and the 6800GT along with all the 3DFX shit is safe. Its mostly stuff like Radeon 9200s, FX5200s, and GeForce MX cards that got the shaft, along with some bigger stuff like my Geforce 9800GTX

Though if its true ESD just causes premature failure it might be decades before some if this stuff fails. As a lot of these cards see under 1-2 hours of usage per year.

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Reply 21 of 36, by wiretap

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-03-12, 09:50:

Hm, I don't buy it. Just three boards of that size and weight stacked together won't cut for such damage. Even if for 15 years, typical PCB aren't that fragile. Probably something else was on top of them.

Nope, single box per bin storage area. I have the test report that proves the failure mechanism. Feel free to not believe it though.

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Reply 22 of 36, by TheAbandonwareGuy

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wiretap wrote on 2020-03-12, 17:11:
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-03-12, 09:50:

Hm, I don't buy it. Just three boards of that size and weight stacked together won't cut for such damage. Even if for 15 years, typical PCB aren't that fragile. Probably something else was on top of them.

Nope, single box per bin storage area. I have the test report that proves the failure mechanism. Feel free to not believe it though.

either way I think we can agree 15 years of storage is an extreme example. Most people at least use their shit once every few years.

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Reply 23 of 36, by wiretap

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TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2020-03-12, 17:13:
wiretap wrote on 2020-03-12, 17:11:
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-03-12, 09:50:

Hm, I don't buy it. Just three boards of that size and weight stacked together won't cut for such damage. Even if for 15 years, typical PCB aren't that fragile. Probably something else was on top of them.

Nope, single box per bin storage area. I have the test report that proves the failure mechanism. Feel free to not believe it though.

either way I think we can agree 15 years of storage is an extreme example. Most people at least use their shit once every few years.

I would agree. It really just comes down to common sense and how much a person values their hardware. Myself, I usually try to follow industry best practices as much as possible just because I have to every day at work and it is 2nd nature to me now. That said, 15+ years in the past I did not and ended up with some expensive paperweights.

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Reply 24 of 36, by DNSDies

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Get a bunch of bulk extra-large ESD bags and an Impulse Sealer and some silica gel packets. The sealer will cost like $20-$25 I recommend a 16" one.
Next, remove any and all batteries and make sure no capacitors are leaking/bulging. If you see one, fix it before storage.
Then you'll want to use the impulse sealer to seal some baggies on three sides for all your stuff, drop a silica gel packet in each one, and seal up the final opening (be sure to press out any air!)
For storage, I just put my stuff in a box and store them vertically, like records. That should protect them for a while.

Reply 25 of 36, by Horun

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TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2020-03-12, 15:49:

Great now everybody has me terrified that the one year of time my hardware spent in Dollar Tree gallon ziplocks stacked on top of each other in plastic totes has killed all my hardware. Though I was unemployed and moving with very little notice so its not like I could afford proper ESD bags at the time. That shits on order now though.

Now I'm scared. 0.o at least the good shit was in whatever left over ESD bags I had or boxes. So the GF256 and the 6800GT along with all the 3DFX shit is safe. Its mostly stuff like Radeon 9200s, FX5200s, and GeForce MX cards that got the shaft, along with some bigger stuff like my Geforce 9800GTX

Though if its true ESD just causes premature failure it might be decades before some if this stuff fails. As a lot of these cards see under 1-2 hours of usage per year.

Make sure it is a damp high humidity day and transfer from ziplocks to ESD bags. Ziplocks can generate static but usually only on dry days and is caused by opening/closing or moving them against other static prone things (sort of like rubbing the balloon on you shirt). Just sitting in a box should not generate any static.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor.

Reply 26 of 36, by SirNickity

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wiretap wrote on 2020-03-12, 17:11:
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-03-12, 09:50:

Hm, I don't buy it. Just three boards of that size and weight stacked together won't cut for such damage. Even if for 15 years, typical PCB aren't that fragile. Probably something else was on top of them.

Nope, single box per bin storage area. I have the test report that proves the failure mechanism. Feel free to not believe it though.

It sounds unlikely to me as well. I mean, who knows, but I doubt the testing facility can really tell you *how* it warped, just that it did.

I've ordered largish (bigger than an ISA card) PCBs from a fab house and had them arrive warped. They are shipped 5 to a batch, vacuum sealed in plastic wrap, so it's not a storage failure. It's just something that happens with fiberglass substrate boards sometimes.

I am suspicious the test facility wanted to provide an answer, because it's disconcerting to pay $40k to get something like "um, I dunno!" Could be wrong, of course. 15 years in one position might cause minor drooping, but I would think it would have to be levered over some fulcrum point for gravity to have that kind of effect with that light of a board.

Just thinking out loud.

Reply 29 of 36, by The Serpent Rider

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wiretap wrote:

Nope, single box per bin storage area. I have the test report that proves the failure mechanism. Feel free to not believe it though.

Sorry, still not buying it. 200-400 grams (being generous here) of distributed weight can't warp anything of that sort. Not for a year, not for 5 years and even not for 15 years. So there must be some other variables, which were applied over those 15 years.

imi wrote:

I had my old S754 board stored for years with the heatsink still attached, that visibly warped the board around the socket.

It would be warped regardless of storage. You could have been using it for years with the same result. In most cases it does not affect how the board works.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 30 of 36, by Tetrium

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-03-12, 19:30:
Sorry, still not buying it. 200-400 grams (being generous here) of distributed weight can't warp anything of that sort. Not for […]
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wiretap wrote:

Nope, single box per bin storage area. I have the test report that proves the failure mechanism. Feel free to not believe it though.

Sorry, still not buying it. 200-400 grams (being generous here) of distributed weight can't warp anything of that sort. Not for a year, not for 5 years and even not for 15 years. So there must be some other variables, which were applied over those 15 years.

imi wrote:

I had my old S754 board stored for years with the heatsink still attached, that visibly warped the board around the socket.

It would be warped regardless of storage. You could have been using it for years with the same result. In most cases it does not affect how the board works.

It probably wouldn't have warped if it had been 'stored' mounted inside a PC case as it being sturdily mounted in such a position should prevent it from warping due to the screws with with the board is mounted. Or at least it wouldn't have warped in any significant degree compared to not being mounted with the CPU HSF installed.

Btw, someone else mentioned the batteries, I Always take them out (this includes coin cell batteries, even though I've hardly ever seen any of those looking weird, it's better safe then sorry).

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Reply 31 of 36, by Tetrium

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TheAbandonwareGuy wrote on 2020-03-12, 15:49:

Great now everybody has me terrified that the one year of time my hardware spent in Dollar Tree gallon ziplocks stacked on top of each other in plastic totes has killed all my hardware. Though I was unemployed and moving with very little notice so its not like I could afford proper ESD bags at the time. That shits on order now though.

Now I'm scared. 0.o at least the good shit was in whatever left over ESD bags I had or boxes. So the GF256 and the 6800GT along with all the 3DFX shit is safe. Its mostly stuff like Radeon 9200s, FX5200s, and GeForce MX cards that got the shaft, along with some bigger stuff like my Geforce 9800GTX

Though if its true ESD just causes premature failure it might be decades before some if this stuff fails. As a lot of these cards see under 1-2 hours of usage per year.

There's no need to worry about this now. Right now, there's nothing you can change about this situation anyway, so why worry?
I'd agree to buy some ESD bags and then wait for a rainy day and move the parts you want to move.

I think it's safe to say that many of us here do not have an actual employment background into computing so most of us probably will make some kind of silly mistakes down the road anyway. I sure did xD 😜

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My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 32 of 36, by wiretap

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-03-12, 19:30:

Sorry, still not buying it. 200-400 grams (being generous here) of distributed weight can't warp anything of that sort. Not for a year, not for 5 years and even not for 15 years. So there must be some other variables, which were applied over those 15 years.

I'm not buying your explanation of why it cannot happen. I'm going based off of analysis reports of a world leading failure analysis lab. I don't have any other storage factors in play other than they were not stacked flat with cushioned separation layers. Nothing else was ever stored in the location, and it is a 24/7 monitored temp/humidity controlled storage for nuclear safety-related electronic components that gets audited by the NRC routinely.

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Reply 33 of 36, by Intel486dx33

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Here are some ideas.

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Reply 34 of 36, by retardware

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wiretap wrote on 2020-03-12, 03:29:

Ziplock bags are high source of ESD.. as they can generate anywhere from 1000V to 20000V just from being picked up and opened, depending on the humidity level.

Just make an experiment.
When air is very dry, rub various plastics, pull them apart and the like.
Do this in total darkness, like a room without windows and other light sources.
You'll be fascinated of the blue light effects that many zipbags and other plastics produce.
After you've done such an experiment, you'll be aware of how easy some materials produce strong discharges, and become much more careful.

Horun wrote on 2020-03-12, 17:23:

Make sure it is a damp high humidity day and transfer from ziplocks to ESD bags. Ziplocks can generate static but usually only on dry days and is caused by opening/closing or moving them against other static prone things (sort of like rubbing the balloon on you shirt). Just sitting in a box should not generate any static.

Static is generated by moving apart nonconductive surfaces.
Salvaging stuff from wrong packaging is extremely risky when air is dry.
You need to open the bags carefully without creating friction and have them acclimatize internally before removing anything, as the friction does cause static buildup.
You might want to make sure that it's high humidity in the bags by putting in a potato slice into each bag the day before you salvage stuff.

DOA stuff by ebay sellers that pack into plastics foils is common nuisance here in winter, when heated air is dry...

Reply 35 of 36, by Horun

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Sounds like the three of us agree. Thank you !

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor.

Reply 36 of 36, by wirerogue

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i am probably a weirdo but, the majority of my parts are stored in completed builds and then boxed up. i've built 10 retro machines in the last year. 2 of them i keep on my desk full time and covered when not in use. all the completed builds are put in plastic bags, boxed, sealed and labeled. i of course have a few boxes of miscellaneous parts, cpus, ram and stuff, nothing special but, even those are in esd bags. i'm not really a collector of parts that i have no use for so i like to get rid of them whenever possible. either way, i'm starting to run out of room in my 1 bedroom apartment. here's all 10 of them in their current state.

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