VOGONS


First post, by renejr902

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Hi! have a IBM PC Pentium 233mx with dual partition dos 6.22 and win98se. 128mb edo. Integrated Crystal CS4236b soundcard. And a ISA Zoltrix 5200 Plus v.2 that i use in dos, Only for the gameport.
Integrated matrox mystique 2mb that is disable in hardware profile . Geforce FX 5200 128mb PCI version. I dont have agp port on my motherboard.

When i tried need for speed iii hot pursuit at 800 x600 in full graphics i got not more than 10 fps i think. maybe 15 fps at medium setting.
i dont think its normal. But games are beautiful and full d3d graphics correction. Moto racer 2 same thing around 15 fps. most games i tried same thing. tomb raider 3 run maybe at 25-30fps. If i remember well my voodoo1 with a p2 200 run these games a lot better than that. a fx 5200 pci 128mb should be more powerful than that. What do you think guys?

- could it be the power supply ?
- i didnt not install chipset drivers does that exist in that time ? and my board has no agp port.
- i ran the best geforce driver recommended 45.43 version. Direct X 8.1.
- could it be edo ram ?
- any ideas ?
- i dont have any conflict in device manager, but could i miss a driver?
- could it be that board and computer cant support really a fx 5200 128mb pci ?
thanks for help !

Reply 4 of 63, by renejr902

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i read that somewhere that more than 64mb could be a problem. i should have spare edo ram somewhere. i have 1 stick of 128mb of edo right now.

L2 cache is 512k i think and its enable in bios.

(if i use eatxms of 64mb could it work?)

this is my computer:

https://ibmfiles.retropc.se/pages/300pl65xx.html

thanks for help guys!

Reply 5 of 63, by swaaye

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Pentium 233 is a quite slow for those games. GeForce FX is also somewhat more demanding on the CPU than other cards. 3dfx is the way to go but still the CPU is too slow to get you high frame rate.

Last edited by swaaye on 2020-07-29, 17:26. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 6 of 63, by renejr902

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its sad i dont have have any 168 pins edo ram at 3v.

i dont think sdram at 168 pins could work neither edo ram stick with fewer pins.

can i trick the system or windows to think i have 64mb or less and then dont suffer the performance hit ?

( i remember my pentium 200mhz mmx with voodoo1 and it was stronger than that. nf3 hp 3 play perfect even porsche unleashed.)

Reply 7 of 63, by swaaye

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Voodoo would be less demanding on the CPU. Especially if the game uses Glide. I'm not sure a Voodoo1 can reach more than 30fps with NFS3 though. I remember it doesn't have enough texture memory to display the dashboard.

Voodoo2 is more what you'd want. It also has full triangle setup offload unlike Voodoo1 so somewhat less CPU load.

Regardless a Pentium 200 is going to be near the bare minimum.

Last edited by swaaye on 2020-07-29, 17:34. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 8 of 63, by The Serpent Rider

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Looks like that's driver overhead problem combined with PCI performance of 430HX chipset: Intel 430HX L2 256Kb vs Intel 430HX L2 512Kb vs Intel 430TX L2 512Kb

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Reply 9 of 63, by renejr902

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-07-29, 17:33:

Looks like that's driver overhead problem combined with PCI performance of 430HX chipset: Intel 430HX L2 256Kb vs Intel 430HX L2 512Kb vs Intel 430TX L2 512Kb

What can i do ? thanks for answer.

( i just test Hot pursuit 2 for fun. it took some minutes like 5min for loading the track after that i got 1fps by second while playing, its no sense ! BUT Moto Racer in software mode in 640 x480 is not playable , its like 15 fps its normal. Could it be the CPU or ram ? ( in dos i dont have problem) ( recently i made like 15 chsnges to bios, drivers and remove some pc component , but its the same problem)

Reply 10 of 63, by renejr902

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renejr902 wrote on 2020-07-29, 18:33:
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-07-29, 17:33:

Looks like that's driver overhead problem combined with PCI performance of 430HX chipset: Intel 430HX L2 256Kb vs Intel 430HX L2 512Kb vs Intel 430TX L2 512Kb

What can i do ? thanks for answer.

( i just test Hot pursuit 2 for fun. it took some minutes like 5min for loading the track after that i got 1fps by second while playing, its no sense ! BUT Moto Racer 1 in software mode in 640 x480 is not playable , its like 10-15 fps its not normal. near 15-20 in d3d. Could it be the CPU or ram ? ( in dos i dont have problem) ( recently i made like 15 changes to bios, drivers and remove some pc component , but its the same problem)

Reply 11 of 63, by Joseph_Joestar

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I read somewhere that nvidia's later drivers became dependent on more modern CPUs, so they don't perform as well on older ones.

With a GeForce2, you can use some very early driver versions (like 5.30 for example), but the FX needs drivers that came out in 2003 if I'm remembering right. That might explain some of the issues you're experiencing.

Installing DOS drivers on an Audigy2 ZS
Using Audigy drivers with a Sound Blaster Live
OPL3 vs. CQM vs. SBLive emulated FM synth
OPTi 82C930 review

Reply 12 of 63, by The Serpent Rider

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What can i do ?

Short answer: you can't. Search for less driver heavy card. Although you can boost some performance by reducing RAM to 64Mb.

Here's a good topic about what you can grab outside of "3dfx cult": Graphics card for Pentium Pro build
Some "period correct" cards Rage Pro or Riva 128 most likely will suffice too, but they both are flawed visually.

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Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 13 of 63, by bloodem

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renejr902 wrote on 2020-07-29, 17:23:

can i trick the system or windows to think i have 64mb or less and then dont suffer the performance hit ?

No, this is a chipset limitation, there's no way around it other than downgrading the RAM to 64 MB.

Since I have 3 x Pentium MMX 200/233 PCs, I can tell you that:

1. The ONLY cards capable of good enough performance for 1997 (and some 1998) titles on a Pentium MMX platform are the 3dfx Voodoo cards. A Voodoo 2/Banshee is the sweet spot.
2. Since Voodoo cards are expensive, the next best thing would be an nVidia Riva TNT PCI. They are not as fast as the Voodoo, but the performance is still acceptable.
3. Never use newer cards on a Pentium MMX platform - newer drivers are optimized for newer CPUs, so performance will be terrible.
4. Running games newer than 1998 is a no-no, don't even try it... just... don't 😀

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Reply 14 of 63, by The Serpent Rider

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Running games newer than 1998 is a no-no, don't even try it... just... don't

*laughs in Thief 2 and System Shock*

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 15 of 63, by renejr902

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thanks guys for answers. i got a boost of 20% speed in 3d. i found a better less powerful soundcard driver. and i change all setting in nvidia panel for performance and some other tweak. now i can play nfs hot pursuit in medium graphics no car shader in 640x480 , it looks like 20-25 fps. still better than trident 1mb ot matrox mystique 2mb.
About your 1998. in my young age, With my voodoo 1 i think nfs high stakes and porsche unleashed run great like near stable 30fps, was later than 1998. i think my pentium 200 mmx overclocked and voodoo 1 got some games until 2000 really nice. for hot pursuit 2 it was impossible. and after that with my banshee and celeron 400 i got hot pursuit 2 working great, but celeron 400 is much faster.

I have a few questions again, thanks so much !

1. Can i downgrade my 128 mb stick to a 64 mb stick ? my father is a electronic technician and know electronic computer , he could desolder some chips.

bloodem wrote on 2020-07-29, 20:00:
renejr902 wrote on 2020-07-29, 17:23:

can i trick the system or windows to think i have 64mb or less and then dont suffer the performance hit ?

No, this is a chipset limitation, there's no way around it other than downgrading the RAM to 64 MB.

2. If i cant find a Voodoo 2 or banshee , would it be ok to buy a TNT2 instead of TNT1 or Voodoo 3-4-5? and what about a pci Geforce 2 MX or S3(probably not enough strong) or Savage 4 ?

3. Can i use the voodoo 2 with the FX 5200 and have no penalty of performance in 3dfx games ? otherwise i would have to use my trident pci 1mb or buy a banshee or other..

4. Can i overclock my 233 mhx cpu ? to maybe 266mhz or 300mhz. but i dont want my dos games to be affected 😉 . my board can do 400mhz with k6 if i understand well.

Thanks guys for answer ! its really appreciated !
im going right now to read your pentium pro build topic 😀

Reply 16 of 63, by emosun

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bloodem wrote on 2020-07-29, 20:00:

3. Never use newer cards on a Pentium MMX platform - newer drivers are optimized for newer CPUs, so performance will be terrible.

I would have to disagree only a bit on this , as I run a radeon 256mb 9250 pci on a pentium 233mmx machine that I have around.

And it actually runs fine , there apparently is no driver overhead on it at all.

The BIGGEST problem with that config... is that the 233mmx cpu can't really run anything with that gpu unless the majority of the balance leans on the gpu itself. So it only runs gpu demos and 3d screensavers from the time period which require basically no cpu usage and all gpu.

IF a D3D game existed that looked beautiful , but had almost no cpu load and could be run on a 233mhz cpu then it'd work great. 🤣.

Reply 17 of 63, by The Serpent Rider

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I would have to disagree only a bit on this , as I run a radeon 256mb 9250 pci on a pentium 233mmx machine that I have around.
And it actually runs fine , there apparently is no driver overhead on it at all.

The BIGGEST problem with that config... is that the 233mmx cpu can't really run anything with that gpu unless the majority of the balance leans on the gpu itself.

You contradict yourself.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 18 of 63, by Socket3

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emosun wrote on 2020-07-30, 18:39:
I would have to disagree only a bit on this , as I run a radeon 256mb 9250 pci on a pentium 233mmx machine that I have around. […]
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bloodem wrote on 2020-07-29, 20:00:

3. Never use newer cards on a Pentium MMX platform - newer drivers are optimized for newer CPUs, so performance will be terrible.

I would have to disagree only a bit on this , as I run a radeon 256mb 9250 pci on a pentium 233mmx machine that I have around.

And it actually runs fine , there apparently is no driver overhead on it at all.

The BIGGEST problem with that config... is that the 233mmx cpu can't really run anything with that gpu unless the majority of the balance leans on the gpu itself. So it only runs gpu demos and 3d screensavers from the time period which require basically no cpu usage and all gpu.

IF a D3D game existed that looked beautiful , but had almost no cpu load and could be run on a 233mhz cpu then it'd work great. 🤣.

I don't know how you did it. I tried running a 9200 256MB PCI card on a socket 7 PC out of curiosity and got as far as the driver. The PC would hang when booting and displayed either "Inssuficient memory to run windows" or "windows protection error". I then installed a 128MB Radeon 9000 PCI and it installed fince, but performance was horrible - worse then a PCI Riva TNT2 M64. Same with a FX 5200 PCI (128MB). Since then I stay away from combining hardware that is generations apart.

Reply 19 of 63, by emosun

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-07-30, 18:58:

You contradict yourself.

emosun wrote on 2020-07-30, 18:39:

So it only runs gpu demos and 3d screensavers from the time period which require basically no cpu usage and all gpu.

IF a D3D game existed that looked beautiful , but had almost no cpu load and could be run on a 233mhz cpu then it'd work great. 🤣.

No it does run a few things from the 2000's but they have to be cpu light.

I'm saying that the driver and card itself doesnt have overhead on the cpu , it's the apps themselves that are running. You have to essentially make a new game that would run on such a weird config. A game that's code can run on a 233mmx but visuals could run on a 9250.

Thats why only gpu demos for the 7-9 series and screensavers will run on that config as they stay off the cpu.

I kinda wish there were d3d games from the 233mmx time period that could benefit from the gpu's tech that it has as the combo is almost there.