VOGONS


Reply 40 of 63, by bloodem

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You're welcome, glad it's helpful 😀.

Indeed, sorry about that, I forgot to add the GeForce 2 NFS showcase to the playlist (it was uploaded, though), here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbqgQ8yPb3s
I think the performance seems to be a bit better than with TNT, but not by much...

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Reply 41 of 63, by renejr902

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bloodem wrote on 2020-07-31, 17:05:

You're welcome, glad it's helpful 😀.

Indeed, sorry about that, I forgot to add the GeForce 2 NFS showcase to the playlist (it was uploaded, though), here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbqgQ8yPb3s
I think the performance seems to be a bit better than with TNT, but not by much...

THANKS SO MUCH ! IM VERY Grateful !!

i have 2 questions

1. Do you think Voodoo 2 and banshee would be enough to play Nfs iii with my 233 mmx even overclocked? i know voodoo 3 3000 is much stronger ? i dont want a voodoo2 and banshee that run nfs iii like TNT ! 😉

2. Can the voodoo 3 runs very old 3dfx games with glide like: Need ii SE, Tomb Raider1, Wipeout 97, MotoRacer1, Croc... i really dont know about glide compatibility of voodoo 3 !

EDIT: i just checked 3 times withe geforce 2 mx, it seems a little bit better than TNT but you choose 800x 600 instead of 1024 x 768 like the Riva TNT. To be honest after checked it 3 times. and check mine right after it. My fx 5200 run it very very similar to the geforce 2 MX, maybe im a little bit worst, not much.

Finally the 3 nvidia cards run NFS III very similar , like the same fps, im surprised.

THANKS A LOT AGAIN , because without you i could have bought the geforce 2 mx and tnt for nothing. Its so much appreciated, you can't imagine.

I will buy a Voodoo 3 , i dont want to be disappointed probably the 3000, because the 2000 could run worse. i fear the banshee and voodoo 2 could both run it much worse.

Last edited by renejr902 on 2020-07-31, 17:25. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 42 of 63, by bloodem

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renejr902 wrote on 2020-07-31, 17:09:

1. Do you think Voodoo 2 and banshee would be enough to play Nfs iii with my 233 mmx even overclocked? i know voodoo 3 3000 is much stronger ? i dont want a voodoo2 and banshee that run nfs iii like TNT ! 😉

Oh, most definitely! Voodoo 3 3000 is faster, indeed, but in order for it to actually reach its maximum potential, you need to go up to a Pentium 3 @ 1 GHz.
For a Pentium MMX, a Banshee / Voodoo 2 / Voodoo 3 will give you the same performance. Actually, I have a feeling that a Voodoo 2 might be a bit faster when used with older drivers. Even my Diamond Monster Voodoo 1 runs NFS at very decent framerates on a Pentium MMX. There's a reason why Voodoo cards were so popular at the time (especially with slower PCs). 😀

renejr902 wrote on 2020-07-31, 17:09:

2. Can the voodoo 3 runs very old 3dfx games with glide like: Need ii SE, Tomb Raider1, Wipeout 97, MotoRacer1, Croc... i really dont know about glide compatibility of voodoo 3 !

I think that it should be able to run most of them (albeit, you might need to find some fixes for some of them). Out of the ones that you mentioned, NFS 2 SE and Tomb 1 run for sure on a Voodoo 3 (I tried them myself). For Tomb 1 you need the "Voodoo Rush patch".

Last edited by bloodem on 2020-07-31, 17:32. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 43 of 63, by renejr902

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bloodem wrote on 2020-07-31, 17:21:
Oh, most definitely! Voodoo 3 3000 is faster, indeed, but in order for it to actually reach its maximum potential, you need to g […]
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renejr902 wrote on 2020-07-31, 17:09:

1. Do you think Voodoo 2 and banshee would be enough to play Nfs iii with my 233 mmx even overclocked? i know voodoo 3 3000 is much stronger ? i dont want a voodoo2 and banshee that run nfs iii like TNT ! 😉

Oh, most definitely! Voodoo 3 3000 is faster, indeed, but in order for it to actually reach its maximum potential, you need to go up to a Pentium 3 @ 1 GHz.
For a Pentium MMX, a Banshee / Voodoo 2 / Voodoo 3 will give you the same performance. Actually, I have a feeling that a Voodoo 2 might be a bit faster when used with older drivers. Even my Diamond Monster Voodoo 1 runs NFS at very decent framerates on a Pentium MMX. There's a reason why Voodoo cards were so popular at the time (especially with slower PCs). 😀

renejr902 wrote on 2020-07-31, 17:09:

2. Can the voodoo 3 runs very old 3dfx games with glide like: Need ii SE, Tomb Raider1, Wipeout 97, MotoRacer1, Croc... i really dont know about glide compatibility of voodoo 3 !

I think that it should be able to run most of them (albeit, you might need to find some fixes for some of them). Out of the ones that you mentioned. NFS 2 SE and Tomb 1 run for sure on a Voodoo 3 (I tried them myself). For Tomb 1 you need the "Voodoo Rush patch".

Ok cool then , i will continue to check for the voodoo2 and banshee too. including voodoo 3 2000 and 3000 , i will buy one of these 4 cards, no other one.

and yeah like you said.. i remember it well that nfs iii run with good enough fps with my voodoo1. i was satisfied in that time. For fun someday try the same setup and voodoo1 and 3 with Porsche unleashed but not full graphics settings, i think you could be surprised, voodoo really love NFS game even at 233mhz cpu 🤣

me too i had a Diamond Monster voodoo 1 3dfx.

Reply 44 of 63, by The Serpent Rider

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OK, so I did the benchmarks, and I was surprised to see that the GeForce 2 is not that bad.

Of course it's not bad. GeForce 2 family was supported on very early detonators, which still weren't bloated.

OK, so I did the benchmarks, and I was surprised to see that the GeForce 2 is not that bad.

You need to disable Vsync for better results.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 45 of 63, by bloodem

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-07-31, 17:47:

You need to disable Vsync for better results.

VSync is disabled on the GeForce. Unfortunately, not disabled for the TNT (no such option for driver version 2.08). Could probably do it with PowerStrip, but I did not bother 😀

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-07-31, 17:47:

Of course it's not bad. GeForce 2 family was supported on very early detonators, which still weren't bloated.

Well, yeah, that's a given. What I meant was that I expected it to be a bit worse overall, compared to the TNT (especially because the TNT was on even older drivers). However, indeed, the performance difference is probably caused by the fact that vSync is enabled on the TNT. Although, in Quake, the hardware T&L (or more specifically the T) should still give the GeForce a small boost, even on a slow Pentium MMX.

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Reply 46 of 63, by The Serpent Rider

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Ok, so I've checked my results with GF2MX PCI with following setup:

CPU: Pentium MMX 200 Mhz
Motherboard: TC430HX
L2 Cache: 256Kb Pipeline Burst
RAM: 32Mb EDO
Sound: Integrated Yamaha OPL3-SAX
OS: WIndows 98 SE
Video driver: Detonator 5.32
Resolution: 640x480 / 16-bit

===============================================================
Quake 2 v3.20 (demo01, low sound) - 30.7 fps
Quake 3 v1.09 (High geometry, Lightmaps, low sound, demo01) - 15.6 fps
Quake 3 v1.09 (Low geometry, Vertex, low sound, demo01) - 17.7 fps
Incoming (first timedemo) - 23.05 fps
Expendable ("go.exe" -timedemo) - 14.7 fps
Forsaken ("Ship" demo) - 70.26 fps
MDK2 Demo (timedemo) - 18.23 fps

Looks like your results are still capped by Vsync or other factors.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 47 of 63, by bloodem

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Your Expendable benchmark score is indeed higher, but your Quake 2 score is a bit lower (which I guess is normal for the 33MHz CPU speed difference - in my case the sound quality was also set to High).
But... that's about it, I did not test the other games, so I would say it's not enough data to draw a definitive conclusion.
In my experience, socket 7 performance can be affected by many factors (chipset, used RAM module - yes, even RAM modules that have the same rating can give you different results in certain benchmarks).

Anyway, just in case anyone is interested, I now swapped the Pentium MMX with an AMD K6-2+ 533 MHz (easily overclocked to 600MHz). Also, went back to the GeForce 2 MX (which I always prefer for AMD K6-2/3+ builds). Driver version is still 5.32 (and, of course, everything else remains the same, including the ESS AudioDrive sound card)

These are the results:

AMD K6-2+ 533 OC @ 600 MHz & GeForce 2 MX
GLQuake: 144.3 FPS
Quake 2: 86.7 FPS
Expendable: 35.1 FPS

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Reply 48 of 63, by renejr902

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im disappointed i tried several motherboard switch options for multiplier and bus speed with no 266 or 300mhz only 200-100-133-75mhz... So i read everything online about overclocking my IBM 300PL, and its absolutely impossible to overclock without the k6 upgrade kit. the ICS chip clock generator dont support higher than 66mhz bus, i even read the ICS chip datasheet.
I want to keep this pc because my first goal is DOS gaming and everything work perfect for that. i will still buy a Banshee or voodoo2 or voodoo3. But i think i will try the banshee and voodoo 2 instead of voodoo3 if Bloodem thinks i can get a little bit more fps in games with these two cards, Right Bloodem ? (Anyway is it better a Banshee or voodoo2) ? . So im stuck at 233 mhz mmx. 🙁
But thanks for all your previous help guys 😀

Reply 49 of 63, by Joseph_Joestar

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If you want to play DOS Glide games, Voodoo1 is the safest bet, though a Voodoo2 should still work fine most of the time. See here: Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix

Voodoo3 is less compatible with early Glide games, so some may not work.

Installing DOS drivers on an Audigy2 ZS
Using Audigy drivers with a Sound Blaster Live
OPL3 vs. CQM vs. SBLive emulated FM synth
OPTi 82C930 review

Reply 50 of 63, by bloodem

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renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-01, 09:05:

[...] i think i will try the banshee and voodoo 2 instead of voodoo3 if Bloodem thinks i can get a little bit more fps in games with these two cards, Right Bloodem ? (Anyway is it better a Banshee or voodoo2) ? . So im stuck at 233 mhz mmx. 🙁
But thanks for all your previous help guys 😀

I think it's down to whatever you manage to buy for a decent price, especially because you need a PCI card for your motherboard (and these are more rare, ergo, more expensive). Also, as Joseph_Joestar pointed out, if you want to play many DOS Glide games, the safer bet might be a Voodoo 2.
Now, about the price, If you look on eBay, a Voodoo Banshee PCI sells for $100+ (which I personally think is insane). But if you could find one somewhere else at a decent price (i.e., less than $50), I would say that it would make a very good combo with a Pentium MMX (and you wouldn't need to bother with a passthrough cable / secondary card for 2D, possibly worse image quality, etc). Still, you need to think about what DOS Glide games you want to play and do some research first, see if they work with a Banshee.
Then again, even Voodoo 2 prices are now through the roof, but if you are patient, there is still a chance to get one for a cheaper price.

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Reply 51 of 63, by renejr902

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Thanks guys ! I like screamer 2 in glide too, i think its a dos game..

But my favorites glide games are for windows 98.
But like you said i have to find a decent price. I already made a kijiji ad for find one in Canada, Montreal. Kijiji is a marketplace in Canada.

I really want one. the best deal right now on ebay is 104$ CA with shippping for a banshee from Latvia. i will wait some days if i can find a better deal. and from Latvia it could take 2 months to arrive. its a long time. Any voodoo 2 or voodoo 3 in pci are 150$+ its a no no. LoL! I would take a voodoo1 at 50$ the time i found better, but they sell for 100$+ im not interested. I will be patient , but i want one soon enough 😀 If you know any online shop that ship to canada that sell voodoo cards at good price let me know 😀 thanks

(1. Could i buy any vga cable male and female or a extension cable to get the voodoo 1 and 2 working or i need a special cable made for them ?
2. My PSU is the original one from my IBM PL300 PC, but its 100 watts, but my FX 5200 works perfect and all components, no shutdown or reboot, no slowdown or bugs. Would it be ok for both voodoo cards you suggested, including the Voodoo 3 ? 3. I cant find any Banshee voodoo3 compatibility glide games list for dos or windows, if you know one just paste the link here, thanks. Thanks for answer again . And after the videocard i will buy a 64mb dimm of edo 168pins unbuffered. 😀

Reply 52 of 63, by dionb

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renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-01, 10:40:

Thanks guys ! I like screamer 2 in glide too, i think its a dos game..

But my favorites glide games are for windows 98.
But like you said i have to find a decent price. I already made a kijiji ad for find one in Canada, Montreal. Kijiji is a marketplace in Canada.

"Wanted" ads are a good way to find stuff but not a good way to find it cheap. The cheap deals are from people who don't know and/or don't care what they've got. Only people who do will respond to your ad. Better idea is to regularly (as in: daily) check that marketplace, both searching for "Voodoo" but also looking at all the "lot of old computer parts" "untested crap going to recycling if no-one responds" ads. That's how I got my V3-3000 PCI for EUR 45 (about CAD 70) at 30 minutes' drive. Oh, and also a decent i430VX motherboard and a sought-after (if crap) Soud Blaster 16 included in the deal. There should be enough stuff like this going around a city the size of Montreal - all the more so if you're willing/able to drive to Ottawa or Quebec and places in between if necessary.

I really want one. the best deal right now on ebay is 104$ CA with shippping for a banshee from Latvia. i will wait some days if i can find a better deal. and from Latvia it could take 2 months to arrive. its a long time. Any voodoo 2 or voodoo 3 in pci are 150$+ its a no no. LoL! I would take a voodoo1 at 50$ the time i found better, but they sell for 100$+ im not interested. I will be patient , but i want one soon enough 😀 If you know any online shop that ship to canada that sell voodoo cards at good price let me know 😀 thanks

If there was such a place, it would be sold out in no time at all.

(1. Could i buy any vga cable male and female or a extension cable to get the voodoo 1 and 2 working or i need a special cable made for them ?

Any 1:1 extension cable should be good. I have one from an old MPEG card that works fine. If you have the luxury of choice, go for fatter, better-shielded cables. At gaming resolutions on an MMX it won't matter at all, but in 2D desktop you might see fuzziness and colour shift with bad cables starting at 1024x768.

2. My PSU is the original one from my IBM PL300 PC, but its 100 watts, but my FX 5200 works perfect and all components, no shutdown or reboot, no slowdown or bugs. Would it be ok for both voodoo cards you suggested, including the Voodoo 3 ? 3. I cant find any Banshee voodoo3 compatibility glide games list for dos or windows, if you know one just paste the link here, thanks. Thanks for answer again . And after the videocard i will buy a 64mb dimm of edo 168pins unbuffered. 😀

FX5200: about 45W
V3-3000: about 15W

There's a reason the FX5200 needs a fan or a much bigger heatsink. If your PSU can handle the FX5200, it can handle the V3. If it had been AGP, there might have been nuances because the V3 is AGP 1.0 and FX5200 AGP 2.0, but via PCI they draw everything from exactly the same lines.

Oh, and as for the 64MB: make sure it's 3.3V 168p unbuffered EDO. 5V 168p unbuffered EDO is also a thing and won't work here...

Reply 53 of 63, by bloodem

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renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-01, 10:40:

3. I cant find any Banshee voodoo3 compatibility glide games list for dos or windows, if you know one just paste the link here, thanks. Thanks for answer again . And after the videocard i will buy a 64mb dimm of edo 168pins unbuffered. 😀

Unfortunately, don't know if such a compatibility list exists, maybe somebody else can point you in the right direction. What I can tell you, is that the very few Glide games that I tried in DOS worked perfectly on Voodoo 3 cards - not out of the box, though, they usually require a patch to run on anything newer than a Voodoo 1. Since you mentioned Screamer 2, yes, that game also runs perfectly on Voodoo 3 (with a certain patch), which means that it will work with any Voodoo card prior to it.

Now, my gut feeling tells me that, since the Banshee is basically a Voodoo 2 with only one texturing unit (and with 2D support, of course), it should be as compatible as a Voodoo 2. So the Voodoo 2 compatibility list should also apply to Banshee.
And as for Voodoo 3, I guess that most games that have Voodoo 2 patches will also work with Voodoo 3, but there might be some exceptions, so don't quote me on this. 😀

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Reply 54 of 63, by renejr902

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Thanks again for all these great answers. You are great people here in this forum. I appreciated you all 😀 I dont have other questions for now.

I hope to find the voodoo card soon.

I wish you all a great day !!!

( Note: since 2 months i search too for a fast 386 or 486 dx/1/2/3 but i didnt found it in Montreal. Not even in fleet market or marketplace. Just for the fun of tryiing it again and with dos games like in my young age, but i didnt found any. Time have changed so much. When i have 8 years old, my first computer was a 8086 and a green monochrome crt. after that i upgraded for a CGA 4 colors crt screen. The 4 colors were so bad, the colors were weird !! strange colors 🤣 In that time my father work in computer and we had 20 hard disk of 10 to 40 megs. it was so tiny small when compared today)

Reply 55 of 63, by renejr902

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Hi again ! i just talked with a ebay guy and we made a deal. I ts a good deal for a videocard from Ebay. A voodo card for a price low like that never happen in sold items in last months.

So i bought a Voodoo Banshee 16mb PCI
for 56$ US + 9$US ship = 87$ Canadian.

Im okay with it. But i will have to wait a long time.

😀

i didbt want to wait for months in hope to pay 60$ Canadian for it on kijiji or marketplace.

Voodoo2 and Voodoo3 are 150$+ in minimum on ebay so i would not bought them. i would have to search in flea market and marketplace, kijiji..

Last edited by renejr902 on 2020-08-02, 04:26. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 56 of 63, by renejr902

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I cant believe it, the PCI Voodoo 3 with the best price on ebay at 260-280$ Canadian with shipping and tax or 180$ US +ship has been sold 1 hour ago. its so too much expensive:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/3DFX-Voodoo-3-2000-PC … BUAAOSww5lfC0xl

This is the Voodoo Banshee i just bought for best offer at 59$US +9$US ship (87$CA) :
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Gainward-Dragon-ICUVG … 353.m2748.l2649

I have a last question. I check memory right now.. If my games on windows 98 never took more than 64mb ram , do i still have the uncached performance penalty OR i got it only if i use more than 64 meg ram ? Because i dont think i can use more than 64 RAM megs with the games i played. I dont do anything else with this computer than gaming. Thanks for answer guys.

Reply 57 of 63, by bloodem

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Nice to hear that you found a PCI Banshee for a... less obscene price 😀 12 years ago I was working as a service engineer and I can't even remember how many of these I threw away... Back then, it never occurred to me that someday the demand for this "old trash" would skyrocket. 😀 And it certaintly never occurred to me that I, myself, would also be part of the problem, contributing to the increased demand 😁

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Reply 58 of 63, by kolderman

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renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-02, 04:25:

I cant believe it, the PCI Voodoo 3 with the best price on ebay at 260-280$ Canadian with shipping and tax or 180$ US +ship has been sold 1 hour ago. its so too much expensive:

I didn't know things had gotten that bad. I have a decent collection of V3s, but not sure any are PCI. I do have a PCI banshee though, which a stock fan that needs replacing. The banshee is not the best but a very memorable card for 1998, and overall quite good.