dionb wrote on 2020-10-05, 23:00:

If you really want to go AWE, I'd sooner recommend a CT3900 or similar early AWE32

They are harder to find and usually way more expensive than an AWE64 Value. Although the Values have been going up in price too.

A yamaha XG pluged into an SB-link if your board has one is not a bad option at all. genuine OPL3, SB Pro compatibility, DS3D, A3D 1.0, EAX , the XG built in wave table sounds pretty good in my opinion as well. Its all around solid.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards buying an AWE64 Value for around $30, to go with my existing YMF744 card. The full-length ISA AWE32 card, besides being out of my budget, would also probably not fit in my mATX case.

If people are paying $30 for AWE64 value cards I have at least 3 to sell 🤣.

Warlord wrote on 2020-10-06, 10:49:

A yamaha XG pluged into an SB-link if your board has one is not a bad option at all. genuine OPL3, SB Pro compatibility, DS3D, A3D 1.0, EAX , the XG built in wave table sounds pretty good in my opinion as well. Its all around solid.

What SBLink? This MS-6368 doesn't have one. And the XG wavetable only works under Windows. OP wants DOS-only.

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-06, 14:08:

Yeah, I'm leaning towards buying an AWE64 Value for around $30, to go with my existing YMF744 card. The full-length ISA AWE32 card, besides being out of my budget, would also probably not fit in my mATX case.

Where are you located? If in the USA, there is a seller on eBay that has Opti 930 based cards with onboard wavetable for 19.99.

If you want an AWE64 with more than just the mediocre stock sample set, and don't want to dish out the money for a SIMMCON, then keep an eye out for a good priced CT3670. It is in essence an AWE64 with SIMM slots. You can even flash it with the AWE64 firmware to disable the onboard IDE (non-reversible).

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-10-06, 19:01:

Where are you located? If in the USA, there is a seller on eBay that has Opti 930 based cards with onboard wavetable for 19.99.

If you want an AWE64 with more than just the mediocre stock sample set, and don't want to dish out the money for a SIMMCON, then keep an eye out for a good priced CT3670. It is in essence an AWE64 with SIMM slots. You can even flash it with the AWE64 firmware to disable the onboard IDE (non-reversible).

Located in the USA, but that Opti 930 has $6.99 shipping, making it really $26.99. The only reason I would go for the Opti 930 was if it was more compatible than the AWE64, since the price is so similar. I'm looking at maximum compatibility for the price.

I'm leaning towards the AWE64 because it should give me good SBPro and SB16 compatibility, plus AWE32 compatibility for the games that use it, for $30 shipped. And I still have the YMF744 for genuine OPL3, so I'm hoping that should cover all DOS games from 1987-1997. Besides, just like the charm of cheesy FM music, I feel the stock sample set has a retro charm of it's own, and is in fact the best balanced of all the official sample sets.

Onboard wavetable means that it can work as a General Midi device? If so, then for that purpose it's just as compatible as an AWE, because I'm not sure I know any DOS games that have AWE Synth support, but not General Midi support. Then it's all a matter of the quality of the wavetable.

cyclone3d, how does it compare to the AWE, from your experience? Also, for my education - where is the onboard wavetable on the card?

However, it is not SB16-compatible, only SBPro / WSS. I wonder how many games support 16bit sound via SB16, but not via WSS. If it's like Phil shows in his video on the OPTi 929A, then you also can't use SBPro and WSS at the same time, and have to reboot to switch?

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-07, 00:27:

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-10-06, 19:01:

Where are you located? If in the USA, there is a seller on eBay that has Opti 930 based cards with onboard wavetable for 19.99.

If you want an AWE64 with more than just the mediocre stock sample set, and don't want to dish out the money for a SIMMCON, then keep an eye out for a good priced CT3670. It is in essence an AWE64 with SIMM slots. You can even flash it with the AWE64 firmware to disable the onboard IDE (non-reversible).

Located in the USA, but that Opti 930 has $6.99 shipping, making it really $26.99. The only reason I would go for the Opti 930 was if it was more compatible than the AWE64, since the price is so similar. I'm looking at maximum compatibility for the price.

It is more compatbile than AWE64, due to 'proper' general MIDI (with no hanging note bugs/slowdowns) and complete SBPro2 compatibility.

I'm leaning towards the AWE64 because it should give me good SBPro and SB16 compatibility,

No, SB16 in all its forms is not completely SBPro2 compatible - stereo is mixed up. IMHO you should look to your integrated sound for SBPro2, but you seem to be ignoring that option. Why?

plus AWE32 compatibility for the games that use it, for $30 shipped.

Far fewer than support General MIDI.

And I still have the YMF744 for genuine OPL3, so I'm hoping that should cover all DOS games from 1987-1997.

OPL3 on the YMF744 is great, but otherwise this doesn't add anything to the integrated sound under DOS. Test whether DDMA mode (driver option) works before settling on this, as otherwise you will need a TSR for DSDMA. That eats memory and neither is great for compatibility, particularly with the picky older games (1987 is pretty old... IMHO the ultimate test is Ultima 7, if you can get that working, compatibility is excellent)

Besides, just like the charm of cheesy FM music, I feel the stock sample set has a retro charm of it's own, and is in fact the best balanced of all the official sample sets.

The AWE? Well, then that is a positive reason to choose that. Personally I'm not particularly impressed, even when compared to many other 'cheap' onboard wavetable options - but there are no absolutes in this hobby, and personal nostalgia is a strong motivator.

Don't forget the awe32 has a very unique capability - reverb/chorus on genuine opl3.

dionb wrote on 2020-10-07, 07:00:

The AWE? Well, then that is a positive reason to choose that. Personally I'm not particularly impressed, even when compared to many other 'cheap' onboard wavetable options - but there are no absolutes in this hobby, and personal nostalgia is a strong motivator.

I'm not a huge fan of the AWE either, but some games do use it quite well. Descent 1&2 and Tyrian are good examples.

Also, certain games load custom soundfonts onto the card (even under pure DOS) and use them alongside the on-board ROM. This results in some fairly unique music that's only available on the AWE cards. More info here: AWEstruck...

dionb wrote on 2020-10-07, 07:00:

It is more compatbile than AWE64, due to 'proper' general MIDI (with no hanging note bugs/slowdowns) and complete SBPro2 compati […]
Show full quote

It is more compatbile than AWE64, due to 'proper' general MIDI (with no hanging note bugs/slowdowns) and complete SBPro2 compatibility.

I'm leaning towards the AWE64 because it should give me good SBPro and SB16 compatibility,

No, SB16 in all its forms is not completely SBPro2 compatible - stereo is mixed up. IMHO you should look to your integrated sound for SBPro2, but you seem to be ignoring that option. Why?

plus AWE32 compatibility for the games that use it, for $30 shipped.

Far fewer than support General MIDI.

And I still have the YMF744 for genuine OPL3, so I'm hoping that should cover all DOS games from 1987-1997.

OPL3 on the YMF744 is great, but otherwise this doesn't add anything to the integrated sound under DOS. Test whether DDMA mode (driver option) works before settling on this, as otherwise you will need a TSR for DSDMA. That eats memory and neither is great for compatibility, particularly with the picky older games (1987 is pretty old... IMHO the ultimate test is Ultima 7, if you can get that working, compatibility is excellent)

Besides, just like the charm of cheesy FM music, I feel the stock sample set has a retro charm of it's own, and is in fact the best balanced of all the official sample sets.

The AWE? Well, then that is a positive reason to choose that. Personally I'm not particularly impressed, even when compared to many other 'cheap' onboard wavetable options - but there are no absolutes in this hobby, and personal nostalgia is a strong motivator.

Hmm, I was trying not to have to use 3 sound cards at the same time. Also I figured an ISA AWE64 should be more compatible than a PCI onboard SBPro. But based on what you're saying, I will have to use onboard SB for SBPro, AWE64 for SB16 and GM/AWE32, and YMF744 for OPL3 FM! Sound in DOS is a lot more complicated than I remembered. Maybe I need to buy an external mixer...

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-07, 13:19:

[...]

Hmm, I was trying not to have to use 3 sound cards at the same time. Also I figured an ISA AWE64 should be more compatible than a PCI onboard SBPro. But based on what you're saying, I will have to use onboard SB for SBPro, AWE64 for SB16 and GM/AWE32, and YMF744 for OPL3 FM! Sound in DOS is a lot more complicated than I remembered. Maybe I need to buy an external mixer...

If you want it all, and you want it perfect, sound gets tricky, yes - particularly if you also want to do it on a budget. Consider that you are trying to cover ten years of gaming history here, the lifespan of at least two different computers.

Given what you're asking, I'm still convinced one of the early AWE32 cards would be the best match, with real OPL3 and AWE, paired with either integrated audio or the YMF PCI (if it works with DDMA on your board) but on a tight budget that might not be an option. In that case it's a matter of either dropping requirements or getting creative with multiple devices.

Exactly, it's not really so complicated, but when you define a specific budget that's quite low for the given market, then it gets complicated.

Since it's unlikely you get a "steal" on an OPL3-equipped early AWE32, your best bet is to choose between an AWE64 Value and the aforementioned OPTi 930 (assuming cyclone3d can confirm that the onboard wavetable is decent), even if it means you'll end up spending $30 to $40 and not that $20 you imagined.

eBay links are somewhat frowned upon, but I'm pretty sure the card in question is listed as " Opti-82c930-ISA-16-bit-SB-Compatible-Sound-Card-w-Game-Port-NEW-VINTAGE-486-386" - at least, chipset and price match exactly.

If so, it has an AdMos QDSP700 synth with 1MB ROM. That one is featured on https://www.wavetable.nl/, on the AST Advantage Wavetable card. You can listen to samples of a whole range of games and compare it to other wavetable solutions, including the AWE32 and AWE64 gold.

Here's the QDSP700 with 1MB: https://www.wavetable.nl/files/comparison/gam … DBII%20A%5D.mp3
Here's the AWE64 Gold: https://www.wavetable.nl/files/comparison/gam … 4%20Gold%5D.mp3

And by comparison a really bad one - the QDSP1000 with 512kB: https://www.wavetable.nl/files/comparison/gam … %200.5MB%5D.mp3
And the best (because written on/for this) - the Roland SC-55mkII: https://www.wavetable.nl/files/comparison/gam … C-55mkII%5D.mp3

Apart from the higher volume of the AWE64 Gold, I'd call them very similar, both far better than the 512kB QDSP1000 and neither coming remotely close to the SC-55mkII - just more reverb on the AWE64 of course.

Thank you for sharing this, dionb.

I think that it's pretty much the ideal solution that enaiel will find at this point, considering the budget. If I needed another retro system or didn't already have an Audician32 + Dreamblaster S1 for my setup, I'd get one of those OPTi930 myself. They are even advertised as new.

Personally, I'd be fine with just SBPro+wavetable in DOS, but if the WSS can be configured by rerunning SNDINIT /B without rebooting (and I don't see why it wouldn't), that would be even better.

dr_st wrote on 2020-10-08, 07:49:

Personally, I'd be fine with just SBPro+wavetable in DOS, but if the WSS can be configured by rerunning SNDINIT /B without rebooting (and I don't see why it wouldn't), that would be even better.

There's no need to reboot after switching the card into WSS mode (and vice versa). It just works.

You do have to run the full SNDINIT.EXE and change to the relevant option using the GUI though. I am not aware of a pure, command line equivalent for this.

According to the manual, SNDINIT /B initializes the device using the values specified in the SOUND16.CFG configuration file. So one should be able simply keep multiple copies of the config file and use some batch file to move them around and run SNDINIT /B based on whatever config they want.

Thanks for the great points everyone, but I saw an AWE64 pop up for $30 and couldn't resist snapping it up for nostalgic reasons 😀
I figured if it doesn't work out, I could easily sell it back on eBay, considering how big the demand seems to be over here.
The OPTi930 does seem like a decent card, and I will definitely keep that in mind for the future.

The Socket370 motherboard arrived and after happily mounting it in the case, I couldn't get it to turn on. I spent a couple of days trying every possible thing I could think off including flushing the CMOS, but nothing worked. I followed the motherboard's manual and even tried to short the power switch pins, but to no avail. Finally, I squinted at the motherboard and read the pin layout and found that the front panel layout was different from what was in the manual! The motherboard was version 5 while the manual was for version 6, and MSI had changed the layout between versions. I shorted the right pins this time, and it started right up. I felt like such an idiot!

My happiness was short-lived, as the motherboard is not POSTing, but just making loud clicking sounds. I put in a POST diagnostic card, but it's not showing any error codes. I'm wondering if the CPU / fan got shaken around during shipping, so I might try to seat them again. Any other suggestions of what might be the problem?