kolderman wrote on 2020-10-02, 01:50:

Have fun! Personally I would save up for a voodoo3 agp and a yamaha ymf719 isa sound card and throw win98 on there too.

Thanks. Is a 3dfx card really required for DOS games? The list of DOS Glide Games seems pretty small, and the cheapest voodoo card I can find is a Banshee for $50. People are selling broken ones for more than that, and someone is even selling just the fan for $25! I probably will get a PCI S3 Virge and an ISA sound card eventually for maximum compatibility.

And on the topic of ISA sound cards, why are AWE32s going for over $100! Is there something magical about them that I am not aware of?

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-02, 17:11:

kolderman wrote on 2020-10-02, 01:50:

Have fun! Personally I would save up for a voodoo3 agp and a yamaha ymf719 isa sound card and throw win98 on there too.

Thanks. Is a 3dfx card really required for DOS games? The list of DOS Glide Games seems pretty small, and the cheapest voodoo card I can find is a Banshee for $50.

For DOS, no, and a Voodoo3 is not compatible by default with Voodoo1 anyways. Now if you want to use this machine for early Win9x games, it's a different thing, and that's what kolderman recommended. However, if you insist to keep it DOS-only, you don't need 3dfx.

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-02, 17:11:

And on the topic of ISA sound cards, why are AWE32s going for over $100! Is there something magical about them that I am not aware of?

Some of them might have a genuine OPL3 chip, which tends to sound better (or at least more genuine) in FM synthesis games. But I wouldn't go that route. Either go for something YMF719-based, per kolderman's suggestion (which gives you genuine OPL3, SBPro compatibility and a Wavetable header for extending to a General MIDI daughterboard, if you want), or get an AWE64 value for SB16 compatibility and AWE synth compatibility for the DOS games that support it.

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-02, 00:18:

Those all look like great prices. I haven't seen anything like that stateside in the past couple of weeks I have been looking.

All of those boards were a case of waiting for a listing to appear and then waiting some more for the seller to be motivated enough to cut the price. Also, I neglected to note the Acer V66M has a solder pad for an SB Link header (I haven't looked at the prices of ISA sound cards lately).

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-02, 17:11:

kolderman wrote on 2020-10-02, 01:50:

Have fun! Personally I would save up for a voodoo3 agp and a yamaha ymf719 isa sound card and throw win98 on there too.

Thanks. Is a 3dfx card really required for DOS games? The list of DOS Glide Games seems pretty small, and the cheapest voodoo card I can find is a Banshee for $50. People are selling broken ones for more than that, and someone is even selling just the fan for $25! I probably will get a PCI S3 Virge and an ISA sound card eventually for maximum compatibility.

The Banshee is an excellent card too and has better DOS compatibility.

Well, not better DOS Glide compatibility if you really care about some dos jank like the broken buggy 3dfx versions of Blood and Shadow Warrior, and it's pretty much the same 2D core as the V3 (with an even more variable image quality than V3 given the different vendors).
The banshee can be had easily, only because it's not part of the holy STB 3dfx product refresh aggressively marketed lineup the cult's all for. It's not a box of eyes.

All 3dfx cards are at this point out of my budget. I just picked up a CardExpert S3 TRIO64V2/DX PCI 4MB for $14 since I'm looking at maximum compatibility to price. This should hopefully be good enough for all DOS games from 1987 - 1997.

Regarding ISA sound cards, I was hoping for at least an AWE64, but even that is out of my budget. Between ESS Audiodrive, Opti and YMF719, which one would you consider to be more compatible for DOS games?

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-04, 19:02:

All 3dfx cards are at this point out of my budget. I just picked up a CardExpert S3 TRIO64V2/DX PCI 4MB for $14 since I'm looking at maximum compatibility to price. This should hopefully be good enough for all DOS games from 1987 - 1997.

Regarding ISA sound cards, I was hoping for at least an AWE64, but even that is out of my budget. Between ESS Audiodrive, OPTi and YMF719, which one would you consider to be more compatible for DOS games?

Define "DOS games", and indicate which ESS Audiodrive and Opti chips you're looking at.

Broadly speaking they offer similar features, i.e.:
- SBPro2 compatibility
- WSS compatibility
- generally bug-free MIDI (but the older ESS 688 chips can be problematic as software needed for MPU-401)
- real OPL3 or 100% clone (except the later ESS1868, which has the different but good ESFM, and the OPTi 931, which has a poor clone)

If you want to play older games (early 1990s), OPL3 will most likely be used for music, so that's an important feature and particularly the OPTi 931 would be a bad choice. If you want to run an external MIDI device (Roland SC-55 etc) or a wavetable card, I'd steer clear of the ESS 688 - and any Soundblaster 16/32/64 for that matter.

In terms of trouble-free DOS Soundblaster compatibility, I generally find OPTi 929 and Aztech 2316A to be the best choices. But... given that you want games up to 1997 you probably want 16b audio too. WSS does that very nicely, but support is limited. Soundblaster 16 messes up SBPro2 stereo, is buggy and overpriced, but the Avance Logic ALS100 (non-Plus) could be a good idea:
- SB16 and SBPro2 compatibility
- WSS too
- bug-free MIDI
- real OPL3 or 100% clone

In terms of breadth of compatibility you really can't beat that. As for individual games, the only thing I know for sure it won't do is Duke Nukem ADPCM compression. That aside it seems to do everything well. Downside is that it was mainly used on cheap crap cards. Upshot: cheap cards, if you can afford ESS and OPTi stuff, you should be able to afford this. Avoid the ALS100Plus, as it is really a downgrade as it doesn't support SB16 high DMA, giving you more configuration headaches with low DMA, and breaking compatibility with games that insist on a high DMA channel.

dionb wrote on 2020-10-04, 20:24:

Define "DOS games", and indicate which ESS Audiodrive and Opti chips you're looking at.
...

I define "DOS Games" as games made from 1987-1997 that run on a DOS PC without Windows 😀

I have no use for WSS, but I would still like 16-bit sound, as I like to listen to Tracker music.

These are the ISA sound cards currently available in my budget (< $20):

* ESS AudioDrive ES1869FC
* OPTi MED3931, OP931/M, 82C931. 82C933
* Avance Logic ALS120, ALS100+
* Aztech AT6800W, I38-MMSN812
* Sound Blaster VIBRA 16C CT4180, CT4188

Which of these cards would be most compatible for my requirement?

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-05, 01:00:

I define "DOS Games" as games made from 1987-1997 that run on a DOS PC without Windows :) […]
Show full quote

dionb wrote on 2020-10-04, 20:24:

Define "DOS games", and indicate which ESS Audiodrive and Opti chips you're looking at.
...

I define "DOS Games" as games made from 1987-1997 that run on a DOS PC without Windows 😀

I have no use for WSS, but I would still like 16-bit sound, as I like to listen to Tracker music.

These are the ISA sound cards currently available in my budget (< $20):

* ESS AudioDrive ES1869FC
* OPTi MED3931, OP931/M, 82C931. 82C933
* Avance Logic ALS120, ALS100+
* Aztech AT6800W, I38-MMSN812
* Sound Blaster VIBRA 16C CT4180, CT4188

Which of these cards would be most compatible for my requirement?

If you are not overly fussy about genuine OPL, the audiodrive just works and is cheap and readily available.

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-05, 01:00:

dionb wrote on 2020-10-04, 20:24:

Define "DOS games", and indicate which ESS Audiodrive and Opti chips you're looking at.
...

I define "DOS Games" as games made from 1987-1997 that run on a DOS PC without Windows 😀

I have no use for WSS, but I would still like 16-bit sound, as I like to listen to Tracker music.

WSS isn't Windows only, it is also used in DOS for 16b sound with similar/better specs to SB16. Descent is probably best showcase of how it wounds.

These are the ISA sound cards currently available in my budget (< $20):

* ESS AudioDrive ES1869FC
* Avance Logic ALS120, ALS100+

These are chips, not cards. ESS1869 is generally problem-free, only issue is no real OPL3 but ESFM (old games will sound a bit 'off', but close) and no SB16 support. ALS120 and ALS100+ have broken SB16 support, the ALS100+ has a 99% OPL3 clone (and sounds exactly like the original), the ALS120 has a different-sounding one. In all cases, card quality varies from decent to awful, with the ALS100+ and 120 cards generally being closer to the latter.

* OPTi MED3931, OP931/M, 82C931. 82C933

Really late, really crap card with ditto chipset. Awful OPL3 clone, also no SB16

* Aztech AT6800W, I38-MMSN812

? These are two completely different cards. MMSN812 is a 2nd gen Aztech card with buggy SBpro2 support, so you basically get SB2.0 (mono) at best. The 6800W is a modem/sound combo card with AZT2320 chip, which is very similar to the ESS1869, as in trouble-free SBPro2 compatibility, with a real licensed OPL3 core for good measure. No SB16 though.

* Sound Blaster VIBRA 16C CT4180, CT4188

Take a look here: Sound Blaster: From best to worst

All SB16 cards are buggy to some degree, but the CT4180 is probably the worst of the lot - not only both MIDI hanging note bugs but also Vibra clipping and hissing, and not even a real OPL3 core or wavetable header to compensate.

Which of these cards would be most compatible for my requirement?

I'd be tempted to say "none of the above" - for early 1990s you want OPL3, but you also want SB16. The ALS100+ comes closest, but its SB16 is only half functional (no high DMA). If you don't care about MIDI (and can live with SB16 single-cycle DMA click) most of the earler 'proper' non-Vibra SB16s with OPL3 would fit the bill. Given that your chipset has integrated SBPro2-compatibility with bug-free MIDI you can use that for MIDI and then something like a CT2230, CT2290 or CT2910 would be OK. Or just get a non-Plus ALS100. If you don't care about accurate FM synth (OPL3), the C-Media CMI8330 chip might also be an option - it's the other SB16-compatible clone with no clicking bugs and good MIDI, just with its own (good but not quite OPL3) FM synth. You can find it on the ubiquitous Zoltrix/AudioExcel AV310 cards.

Where are you looking? Only on eBay? I can hardly imagine there are no better options than what you found. A quick search shows this, for example - even including shipping from France it should still be affordable form the US: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carte-son-ISA-Advanc … 00/274520710276

But in any event, with this sort of stuff it pays to be patient. Turnover is quick, a lot of stuff shows up daily. You're not going to find an AWE64 for USD 15, but ALS100 or CMI-8330 is certainly doable. For 'real' SB16 cards, focus elsewhere (Craigslist) as prices on eBay are out of all proportion to the actual quality of the cards.

I have plenty of options for PCI sound:

* Onboard SB16
* YMF744
* Audigy
* X-Fi Xtreme Gamer

I am checking eBay as Craigslist in my area has none to very little vintage electronics or computer parts. International shipping is usually at least $12, which means the card would need to be under $10.

Maybe I'll just wait till I find a reasonably priced AWE64.

PCI sound solutions for DOS are not a good idea, unless you have one of those rare boards with SB-Link.

Maybe you should rethink your hard $20 limit for a sound card. Not suggesting that you "go nuts" and spend $100, but if you see that extending the budget even to $30 will suddenly give you many additional options, it is something to consider.

I've had great experience with an mATX super socket 7 build using a TMC MI5VP4 motherboard. It won't have any AGP ports but for DOS who cares?

It is difficult to slow down Slot-1 systems to incremental and satisfactory levels in my experience. Disabling L1 cache results in a huge drop in performance, an early P3 or a P2 can fall off a performance cliff and land squarely at a mid-286 level performance. Even the fastest P3s won't be as fast as a 486 (or barely) with L1 disabled, so it's not very compatible with stuff from the 486 era (Magic Carpet, Theme Park, Ultima 7 etc.).

I eventully got rid of that and went for a mATX Socket 370 and a Celeron 1000A@133. With cache disabled this drops down to about 386DX-40 speeds and I am happy with that. I will 'downgrade' to a VIA C3 667 as soon as I can find a BIOS update for my board (or replace it with another mATX Socket 370 that accepts the chip..). Nothing beats a Socket 370 + VIA C3.

@dr_st
Yes, probably if I up the budget to $30 I should be able to get an AWE64 for maximum compatibility, if I wait for long enough. I can still use the YMF744 for pure OPL3 sound.

@appiah4
Thanks for the confirmation that I am on the right path. Have to thank @kolderman for pointing me in the right direction. Can't wait for the parts to arrive to try out this Socket 370 + Via C3 combo!

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-05, 12:43:

I have plenty of options for PCI sound:

* Onboard SB16

Does the Via onboard SB legacy actually do SB16? In that case: problem probably solved. There's no significant delta in DA sound quality between cards, so this should be as good as SB16 for 16b audio.

Seeing as you have this on the board regardless, I'd start with this and see what does and doesn't work and what does and doesn't sound good.

Expectation:
- OPL3 won't sound great for old stuff
- large memory footprint of TSR driver will be an issue with 1990-1993 stuff that needs absolute max conventional DOS memory

Based on what you find you can choose the best ISA card to go with it. As you already have SB16 DA covered, an SBPro2 + WSS card with OPL3 would probably fit the bill best, in which case the I'd recommend the Aztech AT6800W as it gives you everything in hardware with only PnP init needed.

Maybe I'll just wait till I find a reasonably priced AWE64.

Why? You already have SB16, and AWE64 doesn't give you OPL3 or bug-free MIDI - and its native AWE is inferior to Roland modules or indeed good wavetable modules. Serdaco's Dreamblaster S2 offers similar quality with better compatibilty (GM) at lower price. the X2 offers far more flexibilty and quality at a price that's still lower than AWE64s going on eBay.

I finally found the datasheet for the VIA chipset. It's a SBPro, not a SB16. My mistake.

But, it does support DDMA, so will my YMF744 + Onboard SBPro cover most DOS games?

enaiel wrote on 2020-10-05, 15:52:

I finally found the datasheet for the VIA chipset. It's a SBPro, not a SB16. My mistake.

But, it does support DDMA, so will my YMF744 + Onboard SBPro cover most DOS games?

Well, everything except SB16, assuming that compatibility with DDMA is good. But generally the newer the solution, the more issues there can be with primitive, old games, so test first to find out what does and doesn't work.

dionb wrote on 2020-10-05, 15:09:

Why? You already have SB16, and AWE64 doesn't give you OPL3 or bug-free MIDI - and its native AWE is inferior to Roland modules or indeed good wavetable modules. Serdaco's Dreamblaster S2 offers similar quality with better compatibilty (GM) at lower price. the X2 offers far more flexibilty and quality at a price that's still lower than AWE64s going on eBay.

To be fair the AWE64 does provide a bug free MIDI interface as well as its own synthesizer..

That said, I find it amazing that some people can't find AWE64 Value cards. I have about half a socer, and I sold off another half a score due to storage space constraints.

Unless you *need* legit OPL3 to sleep well at night, I feel like a AWE64 is probably one of the best Creative companion cards to stick in such a system.

Pair it with a PCI card for your more modern games, like an Audigy or Aurial and you'l have all your basis covered. Hell, you could be redundant and pair it with a YMF card for the OPL3 if you want.

appiah4 wrote on 2020-10-05, 22:03:

dionb wrote on 2020-10-05, 15:09:

Why? You already have SB16, and AWE64 doesn't give you OPL3 or bug-free MIDI - and its native AWE is inferior to Roland modules or indeed good wavetable modules. Serdaco's Dreamblaster S2 offers similar quality with better compatibilty (GM) at lower price. the X2 offers far more flexibilty and quality at a price that's still lower than AWE64s going on eBay.

To be fair the AWE64 does provide a bug free MIDI interface as well as its own synthesizer..

Not bug-free, it still suffers from MIDI slowdown if DA and MIDI are being played at the same time, as is so irritatingly audible in Tie Fighter & co. That said, with the integrated Via sound supplying MPU-401 that's not an issue. But all it really adds is an OK-ish synth. If you really want to go AWE, I'd sooner recommend a CT3900 or similar early AWE32 here:
- you get real OPL3
- you get SIMM slots so you can add far more RAM for playing with sound fonts than on the AWE64 Value and far cheaper than on the AWE64 Gold with its proprietary module
- you also get a big pile of MIDI bugs, but that doesn't matter because the integrated sound can handle that
- same for single-cycle DMA clicks - they are typically heard in older games that you can run on the SBPro2-compatible integrated audio.

That said, I find it amazing that some people can't find AWE64 Value cards. I have about half a socer, and I sold off another half a score due to storage space constraints.

Don't underestimate differences between markets. They turn up in pretty much every scrap load you see in DE, and are pretty common elsewhere in and around EU (in TR too reading your comments 😉 ) but it's entirely possible they weren't so popular in US. It works the other way round too - just try finding any Ensoniq ISA cards this side of the pond...