KazutoB wrote on 2021-01-05, 22:35:

Hey all, […]
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Hey all,

I recently decided that I want to put together some dedicated gaming PCs for DOS, 98SE, and XP. I've already picked out the parts for, and mostly built, a 98SE rig (just waiting for the sound card to get here), and now I'm turning my attention to picking out parts for a DOS system. I realize that I should be able to play a lot of DOS games on my 98SE system, but, that motherboard doesn't have any ISA slots, which makes getting good sound a bit of a hassle, and the video card I chose isn't a Voodoo and therefore doesn't support Glide without a wrapper, so, I'd prefer to just make a separate DOS system for convenience.

Unfortunately, however, DOS was a bit before my time, and I'm not very familiar with hardware from that era. I've been looking around trying to figure out what I can, but I have a few questions I'd like to ask, some of which I couldn't find conclusive answers to, others I just want to verify in case I misunderstood what I've previously read.

As far as games that I'm hoping to play on this system, I'm aiming mostly for mid-to-late era DOS games. Ideally, I want a system that can run stuff like Dungeon Master, Ultima IV, and the various Sierra and Lucas Arts adventure games, but can also run the later Glide games like Tomb Raider, the Descent games, and the Quake series. A few more games I'm specifically interested in include System Shock, Duke Nukem 3D, Doom 1 & 2, Myst, and Fallout 1 & 2.

Sure you mean Ultima IV? and not VI (or VII)? U4 is 1980s vintage and not "mid-to-late era" by any stretch, as are most of the Sierra games. This is relevant as if you really mean the 1980s stuff, you need to be able to seriously slow down the system. It's possible, but tbh I'd recommend getting a dedicated XT with EGA or similar for that, so as not to have to do so many compromises on your late DOS stuff...

Originally, I was going to put a Voodoo 3 in my 98SE machine, so that it could run all the Glide games, and then the DOS rig could focus more on the pre-Glide era, but I ended up going with an FX5600 Ultra instead, so that that system could run Morrowind, which requires DirectX 8 or newer. It's possible I might be better off putting the Voodoo 3 into it after all, and just run Morrowind on the XP machine I'm going to eventually build, but at this point it'd be more convenient for me if I could just find a decent DOS configuration that covers both Glide games and most of the pre-Glide games that I'm interested in. I know there's no "perfect DOS PC" that can play every DOS game perfectly without any issues, but, the more games I can play the better.

Problem with DOS GLide is that the games themselves need to support the hardware directly, and only Voodoo1 is supported, V3 is not.

Some specific questions I have:

What kind of CPU should I get? I saw someone on another thread asking about DOS hardware recommend a Pentium MMX, and they mentioned that the MMX lets you limit its speed, which would be good for older, more speed sensitive games, but I'm not sure if that's the best choice in my case, given some of the later games I want to play, or if an MMX would still be reasonable here. Should I pick up a Pentium Pro or a Pentium 2 instead? Also, if I do get a CPU that lets me limit its speed, how does that work? Do I just change it in the BIOS every time, or can I make a batch script or something to do it whenever I launch a specific game?

That depends on how far back you want to go. Pentium MMX CPUs are well above average for clocking back, but you also want the Quake series, which probably wants a bit more oomph than a Pentium MMX can give. The only faster option that still might make it back to XT performance levels is the Via C3(an So370 FC-PGA CPU). Note that is has a notoriously slow FPU, so it's only a bit faster than a Pentium MMX in Quake, but in later Descent games (ALU only) it will fly.

Maybe a better idea: get a Voodoo 1 and put that in the Win98SE system, and use that for late DOS games as well, allowing you to take a much slower system for older DOS. No ISA audio is irritating, but an ESS Solo1 or Yamaha YMF74x card would still work fine (the TSR overhead ironically is less of an issue in the DOS4GW extender era).

Then go for a DOS system with say a slow 486 (DX33 or so) with a motherboard that can clock down to 16MHz (or lower) and has Turbo function. Possibly just pressing the Turbo button wil slow the system down enough to run those '80 titles. Doesn't get easier than a single button press 😉 - failing that, you need to set the jumpers from 33MHz to 16MHz and disable L1 and L2 cache (usually also jumpers). You can wire up easily accessible switches to the jumpers. Whether you can do it on the fly or only after reboot is another matter. Worst-case you need to power off, flip the switches and power on again. A 486DX-33 can handle the worst conventional memory hogs (things like Ultima 7, Wing Commander and Ultima Underworld). Make sure this system has a sound card with no TSR requirement, you really need every last kB.

If you want to go the Pentium MMX route (or C3) , you can use software to disable cache and in case of C3 drop multiplier. Lowering FSB depends on the motherboard, worst-case you need to manually set dip switches, better would be jumpers you can wire switches to, even better would be a BIOS menu option (later So7 and many So370 boards have this), best of all would be a PLL you could control via software.

I still have the Voodoo 3 card I was going to put into my 98SE build, and I'd like to put it to use. It's a Voodoo 3 3500, one of the Compaq ones that doesn't have the TV tuner. Would this card work well for this purpose, or would I find better compatibility with, say, a pair of Voodoo 2's in SLI?

Neither, for DOS you need Voodoo1 only.

It's my understanding that, because DOS and DOS games tend to make you manually set up your hardware (such as setting up IRQ and DMA addresses), I believe I should be able to put multiple video cards or sound cards in the same system without any problems, is that correct? So, for example, I could get two video cards and two sound cards, and then choose on a game-by-game basis which hardware to use?

Video: only if one is MDA/Hercules and the other is CGA/EGA/VGA. Only one colour card is supported in DOS, whatever is primary in BIOS. But there's no real reason for multiple cards: almost no DOS games use any form of acceleration or other features. What matters to late DOS is VESA SVGA support (excellent in both Voodoo and nVidia up to FX series, also in most S3 chips), in earlier regular VGA DOS games, all that matters is how fast you can pump pixels from RAM to card, so go for the fastest bus on your motherboard and add a card with good VESA support if you want SVGA, otherwise just whatever works on that fastest bus.

As for sound: yes, within limits of free resources, you can have as many cards as you want. That said, those limits get challenging quite quickly, if you're a beginner I'd recommend not to go over two unless you are prepared to dive very deep into DOS resource management. Note that even if you can get multiple cards running, few games allow completely free resource choices, so you probably won't be able to use all of them sensibly.

There is a massive rabbit hole to go down in terms of cards, but in this case I'd say keep it simple: for the oldest stuff, you want a card that is 100% hardware compatible with the original Sound Blaster. Depending on your budget and skills, that could involve buying an SB1.0, 1.5 or 2.0, or building a replica yourself (look up Snark Barker). This will also give you a real OPL2 for AdLib compatibility. For later games you want stereo and 16b sound if possible. My somewhat eccentric opinion is to avoid Creative Soundblaster 16s for all their bugs, and instead to go for one of the two chips that are compatible with both SBPro2 and SB16 (which in Creative cards are mutually exclusive), i.e. the Avance Logic ALS100 (non-Plus) and the C-Media CMI8330. Both are cheaply available, but suffer from low-end card designs (so potentially noisy). If possible, go for a fairly tall card with Wavetable header (another rabbit hole to go down).
Alternately, you can go the Creative fanboy route and settle on a single Sound Blaster 16 with OPL3 and as few bugs and as little noise as possible. The CT2230 or CT2910 would be good candidates. Vs the earlier combination this stereo issues in some games that support SBPro2 but not SB16, and will give you single-cycle DMA clicks in some cases. Worse, if you want to do MIDI, you'll get some hanging notes and slowdowns when using digital audio and MIDI at the same time.

What should I look for when buying packs of blank floppy disks? I've heard that older ones tend to be better and last longer, but how can you tell when they were manufactured when looking at eBay listings or what have you? Is there anything in particular I should look for or be wary of?

It is frequently said that newer floppy disks are far less reliable than old ones. You may be better off getting used early 1990s vintage FDDs (which can frequently be picked up for free in bulk) rather than shelling out for NOS late 1990s or 2000s stuff.

+1 for dionb's suggestion - a Pentium MMX era PC is great for mid-90s stuff but will struggle with System Shock, Duke3D SVGA, early 3D, etc. A PIII era machine (I'm assuming this is what your 98SE machine is) will run those games great at high res, which is a treat.

A slow 486 is the ticket for the earlier DOS stuff.

My DOS machine is a K6-2. I use it for a similar range as the OP wants - a cover-(almost)-all 90's machine, basically. There's the SETMUL utility (SetMul - Multiplier control for VIA C3 / AMD K6+7+8 Mobile / Cyrix 5x86) but I rarely need it. Most stuff just runs.

A limited selection of very old games are very timer-sensitive and for those few, nothing but a slowed-down 486, a 286, or even an XT will truly suffice. But if you're anything like me, those few applicable games may not fall on your radar at all, and thus may be irrelevant.

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-01-06, 04:27:

My DOS machine is a K6-2. I use it for a similar range as the OP wants - a cover-(almost)-all 90's machine, basically. There's the SETMUL utility (SetMul - Multiplier control for VIA C3 / AMD K6+7+8 Mobile / Cyrix 5x86) but I rarely need it. Most stuff just runs.

A limited selection of very old games are very timer-sensitive and for those few, nothing but a slowed-down 486, a 286, or even an XT will truly suffice. But if you're anything like me, those few applicable games may not fall on your radar at all, and thus may be irrelevant.

I have a very similar setup, using a K6-2+. Recently I found I had to use SETMUL and MOSLO to get Might & Magic 1 to run at the proper speed. SETMUL with all caches disabled and the multiplier dropped all the way down was still way too fast. And even MOSLO on it's own running at XT speeds was too fast. Disabling the caches with SETMUL and then running at XT speeds with MOSLO was the magic combo needed.

Granted, this was an older copy of MOSLO, 2.0 if memory serves, that I pulled off a copy of the Ultima Collection I think. I hear newer copies do fancier things that obviate the need for SETMUL on top of it. But I use what I have.

So yeah, even when going for those super old, super sensitive games, it can be made to work on a K6-2+.

Namrok wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:01:

I have a very similar setup, using a K6-2+. Recently I found I had to use SETMUL and MOSLO to get Might & Magic 1 to run at the […]
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Shreddoc wrote on 2021-01-06, 04:27:

My DOS machine is a K6-2. I use it for a similar range as the OP wants - a cover-(almost)-all 90's machine, basically. There's the SETMUL utility (SetMul - Multiplier control for VIA C3 / AMD K6+7+8 Mobile / Cyrix 5x86) but I rarely need it. Most stuff just runs.

A limited selection of very old games are very timer-sensitive and for those few, nothing but a slowed-down 486, a 286, or even an XT will truly suffice. But if you're anything like me, those few applicable games may not fall on your radar at all, and thus may be irrelevant.

I have a very similar setup, using a K6-2+. Recently I found I had to use SETMUL and MOSLO to get Might & Magic 1 to run at the proper speed. SETMUL with all caches disabled and the multiplier dropped all the way down was still way too fast. And even MOSLO on it's own running at XT speeds was too fast. Disabling the caches with SETMUL and then running at XT speeds with MOSLO was the magic combo needed.

Granted, this was an older copy of MOSLO, 2.0 if memory serves, that I pulled off a copy of the Ultima Collection I think. I hear newer copies do fancier things that obviate the need for SETMUL on top of it. But I use what I have.

So yeah, even when going for those super old, super sensitive games, it can be made to work on a K6-2+.

For me there is a point where if a super old game doesnt work, that's a valid time to use dosbox. Trying to make a k6/c3/mmx behave like an XT is more trouble than these primitive games are worth IMO. Good to know there is an option though.

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:17:

Namrok wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:01:

I have a very similar setup, using a K6-2+. Recently I found I had to use SETMUL and MOSLO to get Might & Magic 1 to run at the […]
Show full quote

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-01-06, 04:27:

My DOS machine is a K6-2. I use it for a similar range as the OP wants - a cover-(almost)-all 90's machine, basically. There's the SETMUL utility (SetMul - Multiplier control for VIA C3 / AMD K6+7+8 Mobile / Cyrix 5x86) but I rarely need it. Most stuff just runs.

A limited selection of very old games are very timer-sensitive and for those few, nothing but a slowed-down 486, a 286, or even an XT will truly suffice. But if you're anything like me, those few applicable games may not fall on your radar at all, and thus may be irrelevant.

I have a very similar setup, using a K6-2+. Recently I found I had to use SETMUL and MOSLO to get Might & Magic 1 to run at the proper speed. SETMUL with all caches disabled and the multiplier dropped all the way down was still way too fast. And even MOSLO on it's own running at XT speeds was too fast. Disabling the caches with SETMUL and then running at XT speeds with MOSLO was the magic combo needed.

Granted, this was an older copy of MOSLO, 2.0 if memory serves, that I pulled off a copy of the Ultima Collection I think. I hear newer copies do fancier things that obviate the need for SETMUL on top of it. But I use what I have.

So yeah, even when going for those super old, super sensitive games, it can be made to work on a K6-2+.

For me there is a point where if a super old game doesnt work, that's a valid time to use dosbox. Trying to make a k6/c3/mmx behave like an XT is more trouble than these primitive games are worth IMO. Good to know there is an option though.

I actually did use Dosbox at first. Amazingly enough, even the latest version of Dosbox ran in Win98SE, and mustered enough cycles for Might & Magic 1. In fact benching it, I think it could run enough cycles to be approximately a 25 Mhz 386 if memory serves?

But still, I'm stubborn, and what's the point of putting together authentic hardware and then running an emulator on it?

Namrok wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:25:

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:17:

Namrok wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:01:

I have a very similar setup, using a K6-2+. Recently I found I had to use SETMUL and MOSLO to get Might & Magic 1 to run at the proper speed. SETMUL with all caches disabled and the multiplier dropped all the way down was still way too fast. And even MOSLO on it's own running at XT speeds was too fast. Disabling the caches with SETMUL and then running at XT speeds with MOSLO was the magic combo needed.

Granted, this was an older copy of MOSLO, 2.0 if memory serves, that I pulled off a copy of the Ultima Collection I think. I hear newer copies do fancier things that obviate the need for SETMUL on top of it. But I use what I have.

So yeah, even when going for those super old, super sensitive games, it can be made to work on a K6-2+.

For me there is a point where if a super old game doesnt work, that's a valid time to use dosbox. Trying to make a k6/c3/mmx behave like an XT is more trouble than these primitive games are worth IMO. Good to know there is an option though.

I actually did use Dosbox at first. Amazingly enough, even the latest version of Dosbox ran in Win98SE, and mustered enough cycles for Might & Magic 1. In fact benching it, I think it could run enough cycles to be approximately a 25 Mhz 386 if memory serves?

But still, I'm stubborn, and what's the point of putting together authentic hardware and then running an emulator on it?

You dont have to run dosbox on authentic retro hardware, e.g. I run all my emulation software on a Win7 box. I save my authentic hardware for games that can actually run on it, but I don't bother with anything pre ATX cuz too much of a pain.

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:35:

Namrok wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:25:

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:17:

For me there is a point where if a super old game doesnt work, that's a valid time to use dosbox. Trying to make a k6/c3/mmx behave like an XT is more trouble than these primitive games are worth IMO. Good to know there is an option though.

I actually did use Dosbox at first. Amazingly enough, even the latest version of Dosbox ran in Win98SE, and mustered enough cycles for Might & Magic 1. In fact benching it, I think it could run enough cycles to be approximately a 25 Mhz 386 if memory serves?

But still, I'm stubborn, and what's the point of putting together authentic hardware and then running an emulator on it?

You dont have to run dosbox on authentic retro hardware, e.g. I run all my emulation software on a Win7 box. I save my authentic hardware for games that can actually run on it, but I don't bother with anything pre ATX cuz too much of a pain.

Yeah, I could do that. But the authentic hardware is the stuff connected to a CRT with a Unicomp keyboard, where as my modern machine has a 32:9 monitor that's phenomenal for productivity, but a total buzzkill for games that run 4:3.

I guess I'm picky as well as stubborn.

Yeah for some people (including myself) the retro experience includes the hardware, and for those people emulation is a compromise. Nice-to-have-available, but it's not the form of retro quest I'm on personally. I need the beige box, the CRT, the noises, the sheer physical presence of the machine and all it's peripherals.

Namrok wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:01:

I have a very similar setup, using a K6-2+. Recently I found I had to use SETMUL and MOSLO to get Might & Magic 1 to run at the […]
Show full quote

Shreddoc wrote on 2021-01-06, 04:27:

My DOS machine is a K6-2. I use it for a similar range as the OP wants - a cover-(almost)-all 90's machine, basically. There's the SETMUL utility (SetMul - Multiplier control for VIA C3 / AMD K6+7+8 Mobile / Cyrix 5x86) but I rarely need it. Most stuff just runs.

A limited selection of very old games are very timer-sensitive and for those few, nothing but a slowed-down 486, a 286, or even an XT will truly suffice. But if you're anything like me, those few applicable games may not fall on your radar at all, and thus may be irrelevant.

I have a very similar setup, using a K6-2+. Recently I found I had to use SETMUL and MOSLO to get Might & Magic 1 to run at the proper speed. SETMUL with all caches disabled and the multiplier dropped all the way down was still way too fast. And even MOSLO on it's own running at XT speeds was too fast. Disabling the caches with SETMUL and then running at XT speeds with MOSLO was the magic combo needed.

Granted, this was an older copy of MOSLO, 2.0 if memory serves, that I pulled off a copy of the Ultima Collection I think. I hear newer copies do fancier things that obviate the need for SETMUL on top of it. But I use what I have.

So yeah, even when going for those super old, super sensitive games, it can be made to work on a K6-2+.

Good info cheers, I'll file that away for potential later use.

Namrok wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:40:

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:35:

Namrok wrote on 2021-01-06, 05:25:

I actually did use Dosbox at first. Amazingly enough, even the latest version of Dosbox ran in Win98SE, and mustered enough cycles for Might & Magic 1. In fact benching it, I think it could run enough cycles to be approximately a 25 Mhz 386 if memory serves?

But still, I'm stubborn, and what's the point of putting together authentic hardware and then running an emulator on it?

You dont have to run dosbox on authentic retro hardware, e.g. I run all my emulation software on a Win7 box. I save my authentic hardware for games that can actually run on it, but I don't bother with anything pre ATX cuz too much of a pain.

Yeah, I could do that. But the authentic hardware is the stuff connected to a CRT with a Unicomp keyboard, where as my modern machine has a 32:9 monitor that's phenomenal for productivity, but a total buzzkill for games that run 4:3.

I guess I'm picky as well as stubborn.

That's what KVMs are for 😉

Agree with alot of what's already been said.

As mentioned dos games were aimed at the Voodoo 1. This list will give you an idea what will and wont work on the V3
Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix
Overall I'd say a V3 is bit of a waste in a pure dos PC but still better then not been used at all.

Here is a list of speed sensitive games and what the ideal speed would be.
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … sensitive_games

I also like the idea from dionb in having a really slow dos PC and the 98 box covering later dos games.
You'll know from that list above roughly what speed your after.

If none of those speed sensitive games really matter though I'd suggest getting a Slot 1 or S370 PC with ISA and use your Voodoo 3 here.
A P2 or P3 will be fine even for the most demanding dos game but I'll also allow you to play Win9x Glide games again.

Re multiple cards.
Sound cards are easy many people do indeed have 2 or more in a single PC
Video card is bit different. It wont care that you have more then 1 card installed but as dos doesn't support multiple monitors it'll simply use whatever bios has as the primary card.

Re Floppy disks.
As always you get what you pay for. The better brands had better quality but even still they are easily damaged. IMHO your much better off investing in a Gotek floppy emulator then buying disks

I doubt you'll find or create the perfect DOS computer for every use case. I think you'll need to prioritize which era of DOS computing is the most important to you to find your sweet spot.

I have three machines that I use to play DOS games (most productivity apps work without speed issues; the video cards tend to have the most trouble) using various generations of processor. Each has pros and cons.

My Pentium 4 2.8 GHz has a SB16 2230 (with a Dreamblaster S2 Wavetable) for 16-bit audio and General MIDI, a Yamaha YMF 744-based PCI sound card to cover 8-bit sound modes, and my choice of 2D PCI video cards. It handles most DOS games requiring a fast processor quite well, but Slow-down programs don't help it enough with games that run properly with an 8086 - 386. I have a 32GB SSD formatted with FAT32 using Win95 OSR2's DOS to store all of the games, apps, and some MP3s. This system also has a Gotek (with FlashFloppy firmware) to read the occasional floppy disk image.

My IBM ThinkPad T42, when coupled with a Dock II, has a 2.0 GHz Pentium M processor, an Aureal Vortex for 8-bit sound support, and ATI Mobility 9000 for graphics. I'd say that this is my most compatible DOS system. It handle's games that need MMX and fast processors easily, the Vortex works in almost all games, and the ATI graphics work with pretty much everything too (I also love the 14" LCD screen on the Thinkpad). The Vortex can also host the Dreamblaster S2. This system responds very well to slow-down programs, so I can even run some speed sensitive games on it. I can boot using the same 32GB SSD I wrote about above using a USB to SATA adapter.

Finally, I have a 486 system with a Pentium Overdrive 83MHz. This system is a bit disappointing. While it can handle the oldest games quite well, it doesn't have MMX and the processor can't handle later DOS games well at all. It has Cirrus Logic VLB graphics for good video speed and compatibility, and an OPTi 82C930 with integrated wavetable and OPL3 for 8 and 16-bit sound, MIDI, and General MIDI. It's hard drive and CD drive are also relatively slow.

Again, none are perfect.

You'll also need to consider the availability and affordability of parts. While a SB16 tends to get expensive on eBay, I bought the OPTi ISA card new-old stock for $20 US shipped on eBay last summer (it's actually pretty good). PCI video cards can be had for $10-20 US, but quality VLB and ISA video cards can get more expensive.